tickets and fines for detecting

[Nugs Bunny]

a quick search with "tresspass on public property" brought all kind of arrests for trespass on schools property, and state by state laws on public property


'

Well sorry NONE of those count...

Just ignore the no trespassing signs and detect at will... if you go to jail for trespassing that's just the price to pay once in a blue moon!

Permission is for sissies and dummies!

 

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[Nugs Bunny]

I'll stand by my statements Nugs. I can't figure out what you are disagreeing with or whether or not you are trying to discuss an issue or trying to make yourself look better by making me look bad. If it is the latter I am flattered but would like to see you post shorter posts that I could makes sense of.

It's not my fault you cannot grasp the reality of the situation.

You contradicted yourself... that's my point. In the permission thread you argued the exact opposite in reference to 16-11-530. In this thread you are suggesting 16-11-600 is in reference to school property although there is no mention of it in the code.

16-11-530 cites 16-11-600 in reference to school property... but in the permission thread you argued that was not so... in this thread you are arguing that it does.

So pick one and stick too it... when you change your position and stories from thread to thread... you make yourself look bad.

So please show where school property is mentioned in 16-11-600...

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Just anyone. Kayakpat said a search of trespass on public property brought up numerous arrest for trespass on school property. Others say it is private property.

What do you have to say about contradicting yourself? You seem to have made a habit of that!

Your link Nugs is in reference to Malicious injury which I doubt metal detecting would be considered. As for trespass your link refers one to this-"after notice from the owner or tenant prohibiting such entry"
I'm not suggesting anyone detect in South Carolina based solely on the information you provided even though it does give the impression that one might be okay detecting a school unless they were told to leave and didn't obey.

Maybe you should keep reading.... it clearly states "and as to whether or not there has been a trespass upon such property"

For the purpose of determining whether or not any school property has been maliciously injured as the offense of malicious mischief is defined in Section 16-11-520 and as to whether or not there has been a trespass upon such property as this offense is defined in Section 16-11-600 and for all prosecutions under these penal statutes and other statutes of a like nature

I've read those and that is what I referenced and stated my opinion on in post # 57. I stand by my opinion.

Here is just one example of what can be considered trespassing. If anyone thinks it is as simple as a two word sign telling you what is considered trespassing you might want to research further. I am not suggesting anyone disobey any such sign ,but there is more to it than a simple definition. ---

SECTION 16-11-600. Entry on another's pasture or other lands after notice; posting notice.

Every entry upon the lands of another where any horse, mule, cow, hog or any other livestock is pastured, or any other lands of another, after notice from the owner or tenant prohibiting such entry, shall be a misdemeanor and be punished by a fine not to exceed one hundred dollars, or by imprisonment with hard labor on the public works of the county for not exceeding thirty days. When any owner or tenant of any lands shall post a notice in four conspicuous places on the borders of such land prohibiting entry thereon, a proof of the posting shall be deemed and taken as notice conclusive against the person making entry, as aforesaid, for the purpose of trespassing.

This is in reference to a school property that is considered to be a private property. This does not mean all school properties are considered private or would have the same definition. Each district might have their own policy on what they allow and what they consider to be trespassing.

 

[cudamark]

They no different than HUD owned single residences, Post Offices or some parks. Those are private property although it has been debated they are legal to detect.

The two biggest and nicest parks in town are full of history... and also privately owned. They are considered public parks, surely those would be an example of an innocuous public location. If one applies the "who really cares" theory and just went detecting those parks without checking first they would be taking a involuntary ride along with local law enforcement.

After all the debating on detecting these other places you can hardly expect me to believe the three amigos would have a problem with detecting Federal Credit Union property.

You really have privately owned "public" parks in your town? Never seen one of those. They charge admission to them? How much do they charge? If it's free, how do the owners make any money with that land,to offset paying quite a bit in property tax every year? Do they have published rules regarding the park use? Have they actually had people arrested for unknowingly detecting on "their" property? As far as I know, all our local post offices are on Federal land, with all the rules and regs that implies. It's possible that the post office is a tenant in some cases, but, that has published rules as well.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

You really have privately owned "public" parks in your town? Never seen one of those. They charge admission to them? How much do they charge? If it's free, how do the owners make any money with that land,to offset paying quite a bit in property tax every year? Do they have published rules regarding the park use? Have they actually had people arrested for unknowingly detecting on "their" property? As far as I know, all our local post offices are on Federal land, with all the rules and regs that implies. It's possible that the post office is a tenant in some cases, but, that has published rules as well.

Private parks open to the public are not unheard of... or even rare for that matter.

I suggest you stop by Redwood Park and Empire Park in San Francisco... they are both privately owned parks open to the public. Map: POPOS (Privately Owned Public Open Spaces) Of San Francisco: SFist

Or how about the new Emerald Park... also in San Francisco... Privately Owned Public Park To Open In Rincon Hill

Or Zuccotti Park in Manhattan NY... Privately Owned Park, Open to the Public, May Make Its Own Rules

Here is more information on Privately Owned Public Open Spaces...

Secrets of San Francisco | SPUR
Privately owned public space: where are they and who owns them? | News | The Guardian


As far as post offices go most are actually privately owned and LEASED to the Government...

Two places you would have assumed were public property are actually private property open to the public... much like a parking lot or shopping center.

How Owning A Post Office Property Works

Owning a US Postal Service property has several other advantages not seen in most commercial real estate investments. Many people who have invested in real estate for years never knew that most US Postal Service occupied buildings were not owned by the government but leased to them by owners/investors. Most, but not all, post offices have been designed for use by the postal service.

When the US Postal Service decides they need a post office building but there is no suitable existing space they send a site person to the area and that person then takes an option to buy the land. Then through a bidding process a contractor, who has been approved by the postal service, makes a bid by filling in a blank USPS lease form with their proposed rental rates, terms and conditions.

The USPS then chooses one of the builders to build the facility to the USPS specifications. The successful contractor/bidder then has to buy the land under the terms of the USPS option to purchase the site. The base, or initial, term of the lease is generally 10, 15 or 20 years with a series of 5 year options. The lease can have various riders and amendments and these affect the value of the investment.

The main advantage of buying a post office is that you are buying the property 'fee simple', meaning that you own the land and the building but you are also buying the rights as the landlord to take over the lease with the US Postal Service being the tenant.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

What amazes me is how Tom and Cuda feel what applies in California applies to the rest of the Country.

California is known for regulations, and they are typically the first State to outlaw something.

From cars to firearms... one will find laws unique to the state of California.

There is no shortage of Birkenstocks or COEXIST bumper stickers...

In California one may only want to ask permission only if absolutely necessary... in Cali asking permission can be a bad thing.

In Ohio things are drastically different, lot's of rural types here that respect property rights... in Ohio NOT asking permission can be a bad thing.

Like I mentioned before... consider it an Appalachia thing... there is an unwritten code of respect here.

Ohio does not stand alone, most States are nothing like California... I have several good friends who live in Cali and they are the first ones to say how "different" things there are.

Great State... terrible politics.

This thread is tickets and fines while detecting, the last examples I provided where of people who used the "who really cares" technique in lieu of asking permission.

People don't get arrested for metal detecting where it's allowed, they get arrested for metal detecting where it isn't... typically for trespassing and or theft.

Can you provide an example of ANYBODY getting tickets and fines for ANY reason when they broke no laws? Beyond the typically fluke cases of course....

From the attitudes espoused in other similar threads it's clear where the three amigos stand...

Brazen and bold and don't ask permission because it's not even needed... if one looks hard enough sure somebody will say no... that's why we don't ask...

HUD property is public property and just hide behind a garage or shed if somebody sees ya...

No trespassing signs do not include the land... only the structure... and they have no meaning when posted on schools... it's taxpayer property...

If one trespasses and nobody complains did one really trespass...

Don't worry if it's legal... only worry if somebody will complain or report you...

If you get run off just go back at a different time...

Be sneaky about detecting... we don't want people to know we are doing it...

If you get a ticket... just pay it and don't worry... it's the price to pay once in a blue moon...

 

[kayakpat]

What baffles me is where did people get the idea that they can do what they want with property that doesn't belong to them? Nothing in life is free, why do people expect it to be? just because they want it to be,. or just because the owner or authority isn't standing guard? I was always taught to respect others peoples property and authority over it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....

In California one may only want to ask permission only if absolutely necessary... in Cali asking permission can be a bad thing.

In Ohio things are drastically different.......

Well, I'll consider this a compromise. That you acknowledge the fact that this "pressing question psychology" might exist in certain areas (hence "don't ask silly questions of bored bureaucrats"). But that you're saying the same psychology may not exist elsewhere. Ok, I'll go with that. I can't imagine human not being the same human nature everywhere. Yes PEOPLE differ from person to person. But I would not have thought it would vary that much by geographics.

But now that you mention it: Some places are more laid back, or stuffy, or litigical or whatever.

Question for you then: If I were to be travelling through Ohio, and spot a cool old park in the center of some podunk little town. If I just pulled off the side of the road and began detecting (assuming it's not an obvious historic sensitive monument, and assuming I saw no signs forbidding detecting), then ...... do you really think I'd be in trouble for not having asked permission ?

 

[cudamark]

What baffles me is where did people get the idea that they can do what they want with property that doesn't belong to them? Nothing in life is free, why do people expect it to be? just because they want it to be,. or just because the owner or authority isn't standing guard? I was always taught to respect others peoples property and authority over it.

Most of us don't consider "public" property as "other people's" property. We figure it belongs to all of us. Granted it's managed by some entity and has rules governing it. Those rules are posted. If there is nothing written regarding metal detecting, why would you think you need to ask when you wouldn't for any other innocuous use? As Tom has mentioned many times, the mere act of asking someone raises questions as to what you are doing and why you felt you needed to ask in the first place. Neither question is something that you want in the thoughts and minds of a bureaucrat. They are simple minded creatures. If they don't know, they will say no or continue to ask up the food chain until they get one. None of them wants to stick their neck (and cushy government job with all the benefits) out by saying yes. If you insist on asking, please do so in your own area and don't come here asking to detect and screw it up for the rest of us.

 

[slink]

Most of us don't consider "public" property as "other people's" property. We figure it belongs to all of us. Granted it's managed by some entity and has rules governing it. Those rules are posted. If there is nothing written regarding metal detecting, why would you think you need to ask when you wouldn't for any other innocuous use? As Tom has mentioned many times, the mere act of asking someone raises questions as to what you are doing and why you felt you needed to ask in the first place. Neither question is something that you want in the thoughts and minds of a bureaucrat. They are simple minded creatures. If they don't know, they will say no or continue to ask up the food chain until they get one. None of them wants to stick their neck (and cushy government job with all the benefits) out by saying yes. If you insist on asking, please do so in your own area and don't come here asking to detect and screw it up for the rest of us.

I think nugs made a great point.Cali is much different than other places.
I ask park security before detecting local parks.I like knowing its permitted peace of mind.Also gives me the opportunity to ensure it stays that way.Im in Indiana and permission is not hard to get here.I think life in general here is a slower pace than cali.Generally just more hospitality.As a young man I went to Cali I remember thinking it was like going to a foriegn country.

 

[kayakpat]

cudamark Most of us don't consider "public" property as "other people's" property. We figure it belongs to all of us. Yes But you are not the public which could be dependant on what public property you on on, Public means city, township, county, state, or all 347 million of us. So you cannot assume you can do what you want, each one is owned by those different entities, how can you claim you have a right to someones else school district property or state or whatever. You are cudamark a small cog in the local public or state or USA it does not belong to you. wow I cannot believe this, do what you want, but don't be shocked if you are found guilty and fined or worse. You are not the Public anymore than a lugnut is a car

 

[kayakpat]

the news today about the Huntley sub is pretty interesting, seems like that had to do alot of painstaking work to keep it from crumbling. fascinating that someone would actually tried to use it.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Well, I'll consider this a compromise. That you acknowledge the fact that this "pressing question psychology" might exist in certain areas (hence "don't ask silly questions of bored bureaucrats"). But that you're saying the same psychology may not exist elsewhere. Ok, I'll go with that. I can't imagine human not being the same human nature everywhere. Yes PEOPLE differ from person to person. But I would not have thought it would vary that much by geographics.

But now that you mention it: Some places are more laid back, or stuffy, or litigical or whatever.

Question for you then: If I were to be travelling through Ohio, and spot a cool old park in the center of some podunk little town. If I just pulled off the side of the road and began detecting (assuming it's not an obvious historic sensitive monument, and assuming I saw no signs forbidding detecting), then ...... do you really think I'd be in trouble for not having asked permission ?

I suggest you do travel to Ohio... some time away from the Left... umm... I mean West Coast would do ya a world of good!

As far as that cool park in that Podunk town it would depend on several factors...

Maybe there is no sign but it's restricted in the local ordinances... perhaps it's a State Park or a County Park.

Whether or not you ended up in trouble would depend on whether or not a restriction existed... and if you got caught.

Maybe it's the most posted park you have ever seen... and you detect anyway... you are not gonna turn yourself in.

I think if it's restricted and you get caught then yes you would be in trouble... if it's not restricted but the park is nicely landscaped you may be asked to leave.

I wouldn't ask permission for the typical run of the mill park with no restrictions. The parks with perfectly manicured lawns and expensive landscaping, that where I think one should ask SOLEY out of respect.

It may not be off limits but it may ruffle enough feathers to become a problem, I hope you can see the distinction here. A run down ball field is far different than a public garden...

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Here is an extreme example of "getting permission" nothing like tearing up a street to recover that target!

 

[ivan salis]

so if you gave them the data of what you found and the gps cords and depth and such with in place find photos --would they then be HAPPY -- since they would have all their "context" nfo for their data collection efforts and let you keep the artifacts or god forbid sell them to collecters --think not.--they need that stuff to stay in the ground to provide years upon years of employment for them ,their kids and grandkids --slowly digging up a few square feet each year

 

[beekbuster]

i thought this was going to be about the grey areas or situations one would not expect to cause repercussions, not about fools digging up national historic sites.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

In all honesty Tom is the only one that has provided an argument I can accept...

"Does anybody really care?"

Although it's a bad idea to be guided by that theory alone, there is legitimacy behind it. It's not uncommon for laws to be overlooked, many places choose to just not enforce a law versus rewriting the book.

What it comes down to is good judgment... Three things to keep in mine before a hunt...

1. Will I get in trouble?
2. Will it give a bad image?
3. Is it worth the effort?

Tom before you even say a word about number two... there is always some busybody like that archeologist complaining about removing modern items.

Number one is self explanatory...

Number three... Well I have had a blast collecting pull tabs and rusty nails... I'm on to bigger better things! If there no chance of finding much more than clad or occasional trinket then I usually don't waste my time. I do admire my extensive pull tab collection... I have original zip tops, vintage 70's retro 80's and a bunch of those ones that "stayed on the can" lol well were supposed to anyway.

I'm making an old school chain with them for Kemper's hovercraft... I hope it makes up for getting peanut butter on the seat covers he knitted. Those were the rage back in the 70's along with the door beads... they are making a comeback...

On second thought, I may try to instigate a bidding war on E-Bay over that pull tab chain... new age hippies can't get enough of 70's culture!

Here are a few jokes I thought up while writing up this post, I'm feely lazy so I will just post them outright instead of working them into the convo.

California's State Motto should be "Hey There Should Be a Law Against That!"
Cali will not fall into the Pacific from a major earthquake... But if leans any farther left it just might topple over! <--- Check out the little guy... leaning to your left!

 

[cudamark]

cudamark Most of us don't consider "public" property as "other people's" property. We figure it belongs to all of us. Yes But you are not the public which could be dependant on what public property you on on, Public means city, township, county, state, or all 347 million of us. So you cannot assume you can do what you want, each one is owned by those different entities, how can you claim you have a right to someones else school district property or state or whatever. You are cudamark a small cog in the local public or state or USA it does not belong to you. wow I cannot believe this, do what you want, but don't be shocked if you are found guilty and fined or worse. You are not the Public anymore than a lugnut is a car

I don't assume, I look up the laws regarding a particular site myself. If there is nothing restricting metal detecting, I'll hunt it if it looks like a good site. I don't think that's any different than someone deciding to have a picnic there because it looks good. Nowhere have I said that you could do anything you want. Just look up the rules regarding your activity to see if there are any. If not, they must not be too worried about it. If an activity becomes a problem, they know how to change the rules. Been detecting since 1970 and haven't had a ride to the station yet so I must not be doing anything too terrible.

 

[cudamark]

In all honesty Tom is the only one that has provided an argument I can accept...

"Does anybody really care?"

Although it's a bad idea to be guided by that theory alone, there is legitimacy behind it. It's not uncommon for laws to be overlooked, many places choose to just not enforce a law versus rewriting the book.

What it comes down to is good judgment... Three things to keep in mine before a hunt...

1. Will I get in trouble?
2. Will it give a bad image?
3. Is it worth the effort?

Tom before you even say a word about number two... there is always some busybody like that archeologist complaining about removing modern items.

Number one is self explanatory...

Number three... Well I have had a blast collecting pull tabs and rusty nails... I'm on to bigger better things! If there no chance of finding much more than clad or occasional trinket then I usually don't waste my time. I do admire my extensive pull tab collection... I have original zip tops, vintage 70's retro 80's and a bunch of those ones that "stayed on the can" lol well were supposed to anyway.

I'm making an old school chain with them for Kemper's hovercraft... I hope it makes up for getting peanut butter on the seat covers he knitted. Those were the rage back in the 70's along with the door beads... they are making a comeback...

On second thought, I may try to instigate a bidding war on E-Bay over that pull tab chain... new age hippies can't get enough of 70's culture!

Here are a few jokes I thought up while writing up this post, I'm feely lazy so I will just post them outright instead of working them into the convo.

California's State Motto should be "Hey There Should Be a Law Against That!"
Cali will not fall into the Pacific from a major earthquake... But if leans any farther left it just might topple over! <--- Check out the little guy... leaning to your left!

Can anyone answer your three questions or just Tom? If so, here are my answers.....(1) probably not, (2) probably not, and (3) you won't know until you try. In the '70's I had a huge pull tab curtain that went from ceiling to floor in 3 different doorways. I ended up donating them to Ronald McDonald house in a charity drive. I still find those fuil "beavertails" from time to time.....mostly at old school grounds and parks!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... So you cannot assume you can do what you want,....

Correct. Just because some place is "public", doesn't mean you can do "what you want". Example: Stroll nude, spin donuts with your jeep, etc... That's what laws and rules-of-use are for. And if "md'ing" isn't listed as one of the prohibitions, then presto: It's not prohibited.