US forest land

[Tom_in_CA]

.....Long before ATV's were prohibited here in the Eastern National Forest by NFS/USDA regulations, they were prohibited by notifications posted at individual Ranger Stations, District Offices and even in specific locations within many of the National Forests here. Well, hundreds if not thousands of ATV's were confiscated from and forfeited by their' owners because they did not heed the notifications.....

Ok. Then what's to stop an md'r from looking to see if detecting is "prohibited by notification of posting" ? And if it's NOT prohibited by notification of posting, then .... what are we talking about ?

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

From your link: Lands Nobody Wanted - Weeks Act - USFS History - Forest History Society

Definitely not the USDA or the Forest Service "that governs ALL US National Forests". A private non profit organization.

I don't have anything against greenies except the fact that they often present false or misleading information. The Forest History Society is not bad but they certainly have an agenda. They clearly state that above.

Well gee, then I LIKE their "agenda". What's wrong with it ? And while it may be an "agenda", yet they ARE citing the source rules from actual NFS material.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

From your link: Lands Nobody Wanted - Weeks Act - USFS History - Forest History Society

Definitely not the USDA or the Forest Service "that governs ALL US National Forests". A private non profit organization.

I don't have anything against greenies except the fact that they often present false or misleading information. The Forest History Society is not bad but they certainly have an agenda. They clearly state that above.

The only information I provided from FHS was history, the link for FHS is provided at the USDA on their history page.

Click the link Our History | US Forest Service scroll to the bottom of the page, in the lower right hand side is the heading DIG DEEPER, click the second link down The Greatest Good: A timeline of history there are two columns of links, the first one in the right hand column is for the FHS... the history is accurate.

Since you are looking for valuable things in the ground the Forest Supervisor can't let you metal detect or dig... On the few parcels that the government did buy the subsurface estate the Forest Supervisor could let you metal detect. This rarely happens because most of these parcels are small and unmarked. Since the Weeks Law Forests are not subject to the requirement that regulations be uniform the Forest Supervisor usually will find it easier to just say no to metal detecting. To do otherwise would be a management nightmare and open the government to a law suit by the owner.

The Forest manager is faced with a dilemma when asked if one can metal detect in an eastern Weeks Act forest. He can't have a stock answer for you. The still private lands in the purchase unit can't be detected and the already purchased lands have so many different reserved rights that describing the various areas that might be open to detecting can be a legal nightmare. Many Forest Service managers prefer to just say no.

As you can see in the case of Wayne National Forest the Forest Supervisor has a stock answer and the USFS owns the mineral rights to 41% of the land. Digging and collecting are permitted, along with OHV/ATV use. The restrictions on metal detecting are attributed to the historical significance of relics... not possible law suits.

Wayne National Forest Wayne National Forest - About the Forest

Of Interest to Visitors... This information answers questions most frequently asked by visitors to the Wayne National Forest.

All-Terrain Vehicles (ATVs)
There are several areas which provide designated ATV trails. All vehicles must be properly licensed or have an APV sticker and drivers must abide by State laws.

Plant Collecting
Permits are required for personal or commercial collection of plants from the NF. Collection of endangered, threatened, or rare species is prohibited, and certain areas of the Forest are closed for plant collecting. Plant collecting permits are $20 and available at any Forest Service office. Click here for a printable brochure on plant collecting and gathering forest products.

Use of Metal Detectors and removing artifacts
Much of the Wayne National Forest was once in farms and home sites. Bottles, old farm equipment, and antiquated household utensils often remain at these sites. These items are protected and may not be removed. As historians and archaeologists examine the sites, many of these items allow for them to date occupancy of the site and from these traces of the past, they can learn more about our heritage. Use of a metal detector to search for coins or other antiques and historic artifacts is prohibited. These objects are part of the cultural history of the area and are protected under federal antiquities acts. However, an exception to this rule is that coins may be collected and metal detectors may be used on beach areas in developed recreation sites.

Wayne National Forest Wayne National Forest - Land & Resources Management

Land & Resources Management

The Wayne National Forest is a working forest that provides multiple uses and multiple products.

The Forest Service manages the land surface and some mineral rights. Privately owned oil and natural gas rights underlie approximately 59% or 142,333 acres of WNF system land.

Mining law hooplah does not apply to land in the East, this is America, we are a Nation of Laws... NOT Men. The rules and regulations posted on the Info Boards and at the Ranger Station are good enough for me. Like I said... THAT'S what is enforced... not our opinions.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Going further, we will see there is a "stock" answer... "Enclosed for your information is an internal information paper entitled “Metal Detecting on the National Forests” that discusses the general requirements for using metal detectors for both prospecting and recreational purposes."

The same memo I posted here http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t.../448213-metal-detecting-national-forests.html Look who gave the East Coast vs West Coast argument on the last page of that thread.

Read this exchange of emails, there are several lessons to learn from it.

United States Department of Agriculture

Uinta National Forest
88 West l00 North
P.O. mx 1428
Provo, Utah 84603
801-342-5100

File Code: 2360

Date: August l0, 2005


Mr. James Foley
National Land Rights League
P.O. Box 1818
La Pine, OR 97739

Dear Mr. Foley:

This letter is in response to your March 27, 2005 email to the USDA.gov Feedback inbox regarding information posted on the Uinta National Forest website about the legality of using metal detectors on National Forest lands. Your email correctly pointed out that metal detecting is a legitimate means of prospecting for gold or other mineral specimens under the 1872 Mining Law. Like other locatable mineral prospecting activities, use of a metal detector in this manner is covered under the Forest Service 36 CFR 228A regulations. Enclosed for your information is an internal information paper entitled “Metal Detecting on the National Forests” that discusses the general requirements for using metal detectors for both prospecting and recreational purposes.

The statements on the Uinta website reflect requirements for the recreational use of metal detectors and the concerns for protecting archaeological resources on the Uinta National Forest, We are aware of the statutory right to prospect on National Forest System lands under the l872 Mining Law and have updated our webpage to reflect the legitimacy of using a metal detector for that purpose. We apologize for any confusion caused by the omission of a reference to the Mining Law.

Thank you for helping us to make our website clearer for persons such as your self who are interested in the use of metal detectors for prospecting on National Forest lands.

Sincerely,


PETER W. KARP
Forest Supervisor

Enclosure

cc Jack Troyer, R4 -- . Regional Forester


METAL DETECTING ON THE NATIONAL PORESTS

Metal detecting is a legitimate means of locating gold or other mineral specimens and can be an effective prospecting tool for locating larger mineral deposits. This activity can also be conducted as a recreational activity locating lost coins, jewelry or other incidental metallic items of no historical value. Prospecting using a metal detector can be conducted under the General Mining Laws and is covered under the Forest Service 36 CFR 22~A locatable mineral regulations for lands open to mineral entry. Metal detecting for treasure trove or lost items such as coins and jewelry is managed as a non minerals-related recreation activity. It is Forest Service policy that the casual collection of rocks and mineral samples is allowed on the National Forests.

Prospecting using metal detectors is a low surface impact activity that involves digging small holes rarely more than six inches deep. Normally, prospecting with a metal detector does not require a notice of intent or written authorization since it only involves searching for and occasionally removing small rock samples or mineral specimens (36 CFR 228 .4(a)).

Metal detectors may be used on public land in areas that do not contain or would not reasonably he expected to contain archaeological or historical resources. Normally, developed campgrounds, swimming beaches, and other developed recreation sites are open to recreational metal detecting unless there arc archaeological or historical resources present. In such cases, forest supervisors are authorized to close the area to metal detecting and the closure would he posted at the site. Such closure notices are not always practical in undeveloped areas, and federal agencies have not identified every archaeological site on public lands. It is possible therefore, that you may encounter such archaeological remains that have not yet been documented or an area that is not closed even though it does indeed contain such remains. Archaeological remains on public land arc protected under law. If you were to discover such remains, you should leave them undisturbed and notify a Forest Service office.

The purpose of the restrictions to metal detecting on public lands is to protect historical remains. The Code of Federal Regulations, (36 CFR 261.9) states, “The Following are prohibited: (g) Digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, or property. (h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, property.” The Archaeological Resources Protection Act (ARPA, 16 U.S.C. 470cc:smile: also prohibits these activities, stating, “No person may excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface or attempt to excavate, remove, damage or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resources located on public lands or Indian lands unless such activity a pursuant to a permit...” ARPA exempts the collection of coins for personal use if the coins are not in an archaeological context. in some cases, historically significant coins and other metallic artifacts may be part of an historical-period archaeological site, in which case they would he considered archaeological resources and arc protected under law. These laws apply to all National Forest System land and do not vary from state to state.
Four forms of metal detector use are recognized.

I. Searching for treasure trove: Treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or precious metals in the form of coin, plate, or bullion that has been deliberately hidden with the intention of recovering it later. This activity requires a Special Use Permit under The Act of June 4, 1897 (16 U.S.C. 551). Forest Service Manual 2724.4 states “allow persons to search for buried treasure on National Forest System lands, but protect the rights of the public regarding ownership of, or claims on, any recovered property.


2. Prospecting: Using a metal detector to locate gold or other mineral deposits is an allowed activity under the General Mining laws and is subject to the 36 CFR 228A regulations, A Notice of Intent (36 CFR 228.4(a)) is normally not required for prospecting using a metal detector. A Notice of Intent (NOl) is required for any prospecting which might cause disturbance of surface resources. A plan of operation is required for any prospecting that will likely cause significant disturbance of surface resources. Normal metal detecting does not cause surface impacts that require either a NOI or a Plan of Operation. People who use metal detectors for prospecting should bear in mind that many of the mineralized lands within the National Forests and open to mineral entry have been “claimed” by others who have sole right to prospect and develop the mineral resources found on the mining claim. A search of County and Bureau of Land Management records should he made prior to prospecting to determine if an area has been claimed.

Normally, any gold found can he removed and kept. Lf the removal of the gold, rocks, or minerals might cause disturbance of surface resources, beyond digging a small shallow hole, an NOI may be required.

3. Searchjng for historic or prehistoric artifacts: Using a metal detector to locate archaeological or historical remains is subject to the Antiquities Act of 1906 and the Archeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 (ARPA) as amended and requires a special use permit. Such permits are granted for scientific research only, however, there are many ways to get involved with organized, scientific research. See below for ways to use metal detectors for this purpose under sanctioned public archaeology programs.

4. Recreational pursuits: The most common form of metal detector use is searching for lost coins, jewelry, and incidental metal items having no historical value. Such use is common in developed campgrounds, swimming areas, and picnic areas and requires no permit. However, one must assume personal responsibility to notice if the area may indeed contain archaeological or historical resources and if it does, cease metal detecting and notify a Forest Service office. Not doing so may result in prosecution under the Code of Federal Regulations or ARPA.

Metal detecting in the National Forests is recognized as a legitimate prospecting method under the General Mining Laws and also as a recreational activity for the casual collection of rocks and minerals. This policy does not permit the use of metal detectors in or around known or undiscovered cultural or historic sites in order to protect our valuable, non-renewable historical resources. However, recognizing the universal interest in archaeology and history and the vast public knowledge of such resources, the USDA Forest Service sponsors a public archaeology program through which metal detector enthusiasts and others can help. Passport In Time (PIT) is a national program inviting the public to work with agency archaeologists on historic preservation projects. We have done numerous projects through PIT in cooperation with metal detecting clubs and individuals. The cooperation has been beneficial for both the detectorists and agency’s archaeologists. Locating archaeological sites becomes a joint endeavor and we learn a great deal. If you would like more information on this program, call 1-800-281-9176 or visit http://www.oasstjortintime.com

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Hey TH'r, you gotta admit one thing here: Clay, huntsman, and nugs-bunny are bringing out deeeep intricate un-ravelling on this location. Unlike other "permission" threads, where it's admittedly the same concept-points tried out for size over and over again. THIS discussion is all new. Going very deep into a particulars of nuances, never-before discussed at this depth. Material I don't ever recall be brought out.

This East vs West argument reminds me of that scene from Airplane... "The red zone is for..."

 

[Tom_in_CA]

bunny nugs, I know you're "only prospecting", eh ? Nuggets, meteorites, etc... But just for kicks & giggles, Let's just assume for a minute that you accidentally found a 1964 penny (which is 51 yrs. old). Then after all you've excellently reported here, I'm guessing you would put it back in the ground, right ? Or alert a federal archaeologist ? Or .... ?

 

[Clay Diggins]

Oh My!

Here I've gone and introduced a few facts into this discussion like Supreme Court decisions and Federal laws and now the turning and twisting of the words begin. Look on the back of a matchbook and you might find something that has more validity than the Supreme Court. Check the internet and see if you can find anybody that has a different opinion than what the law clearly states.

I haven't seen so much disturbance since I produced that rubber snake at Susie Dent's 8th birthday party!

You can twist and turn all you want but the facts are already clearly written within this thread. You can pretend it never happened or that all those courts had it wrong but you cant make the facts go away.

More words and more denial of what is. It's almost as if the volume of words and giggles will undermine the truth before anyone bothers to read through this tangle of a thread. I think the rabbit pretty well summed up the response real facts will get when they don't agree with all the theories here.

I stopped reading

I'm guessing you won't be reading when I finish the maps, articles, and documents that will explain this portion of the United States Land Status either.

That's probably for the best.

 

[huntsman53]

I stated that my last post would be my last post on this subject and Thread but I have to clarify some things, so this will be my last post! Yes, ATV's are allowed in the National Forests but only on designated trails and roads, some of which were built just for this sports activity. I was talking about when every Tom (not Tom in CA), Dick and Harry and Harriet was making their own trails all over the National Forests tearing up everything, damaging small trees and other plant growth and disturbing and/or killing wildlife. And yes, metal detectors are allowed in some National Forests here in the East but not all and in most of the one's where it is allowed, metal detecting is only allowed in designated areas again such as parking lots, camping sites and swimming holes and as others have stated, any items 50 years old or older are supposed to be reburied and not taken. Although the subject was metal detecting (I guess) of any kind in the National Forests, I leaned more to the Gold prospecting form of metal detecting, so my bad!


Frank

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Frank, don't exit the conversation thread. I enjoyed your input. Even if someone isn't appearing to budge from their views, and admit to your points, it doesn't mean you're not making headway. You are planting a stone-in-people's shoe, for them to think about. And others who are not necessarily chiming in, are reading as well. So don't think that because someone else isn't agreeing with you, or continues to challenge, that you're not contributing good food for thought.

..... And yes, metal detectors are allowed in some National Forests here in the East but not all and in most of the one's where it is allowed, metal detecting is only allowed in designated areas again such as parking lots, camping sites and swimming hole ... .

Yes, some portions/parks of the NFS have specific allowances. Ie.: parts listed as set aside, or allowed (beach, etc...). But how about all the rest of the NFS tracts/portions where it's simply silent on the subject? Neither prohibited, nor "allowed" ?

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Oh My!

Here I've gone and introduced a few facts into this discussion like Supreme Court decisions and Federal laws and now the turning and twisting of the words begin. Look on the back of a matchbook and you might find something that has more validity than the Supreme Court. Check the internet and see if you can find anybody that has a different opinion than what the law clearly states.

I haven't seen so much disturbance since I produced that rubber snake at Susie Dent's 8th birthday party!

You can twist and turn all you want but the facts are already clearly written within this thread. You can pretend it never happened or that all those courts had it wrong but you cant make the facts go away.

More words and more denial of what is. It's almost as if the volume of words and giggles will undermine the truth before anyone bothers to read through this tangle of a thread. I think the rabbit pretty well summed up the response real facts will get when they don't agree with all the theories here.


I'm guessing you won't be reading when I finish the maps, articles, and documents that will explain this portion of the United States Land Status either.

That's probably for the best.

First off nobody twisted your words.

Forest lands in the east and the west are not the same. They were created under different laws and have different regulations.

Two very different "Forests" created by entirely different laws with very different rights to access and use. The differences between the eastern and western forests are much greater than their similarities. In fact the only real similarity between the two types of forests is the management agency assigned to administer them - the Forest Service.

You are claiming there is a huge difference between the Eastern and Western Forests.

The Supreme Court cases you are referring too are concerning small scale miners and mining law. In relation to mining law there is a huge difference between the Eastern and Western forests. Recreational mining is not covered under mining law... correct? Mining law only applies to BLM land and other US lands open to mineral entry.

Criminal Law is what the recreational user must worry about... Not mining law.

When it comes to recreational activities, like camping, hiking or metal detecting there is no difference between East or West. Regulations will vary for each specific forest and you will find ones in the West where detecting is prohibited and ones in the East where it is permitted... and vice versa.

The USFS commonly oversteps their authority in the West and shuts down small scale miners... I am fully aware of the plight. They harass those working their legal mining claims, and there have been many court battles over it.

But we are talking about RECREATION, you know that word... any miner worth his salt cringes when they hear the words "recreational mining" lol.

When it comes to recreational activities I think I can rely on the posted rules and regulations. I'm sure your land status project will be informative for small scale miners but it just doesn't apply to relic and coin hunters. There are no laws to protect us in either the East or West... no laws to protect the recreational user. You know that and I know that.

Mining cases are Civil Law, violating the regulations at a National forest is Criminal Law...

Nonsense... Regulations are published in the Code of Federal Regulations not on Forest Service or Greenie websites. Whats published online and onsite has the same legal effect as the other piffle and advertising found on Facebook or your favorite porn site - none.

Long story short... you are claiming the posted regulations do not matter, the USFS is wrong, they cannot be trusted, and that there are other agencies/entities that have unposted regulations we actually must follow.

The regulations that are posted for a specific forest are what matters. Metal detecting is permitted unless otherwise prohibited according to the USFS internal memo. The posted regulations support that as well as the regulations found online...

So why do they even post the "fake" regulations... I mean why wouldn't they just post the "real" regulations... I'm curious to the conspiracy now lol...

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Frank, don't exit the conversation thread. I enjoyed your input. Even if someone isn't appearing to budge from their views, and admit to your points, it doesn't mean you're not making headway. You are planting a stone-in-people's shoe, for them to think about. And others who are not necessarily chiming in, are reading as well. So don't think that because someone else isn't agreeing with you, or continues to challenge, that you're not contributing good food for thought.



Yes, some portions/parks of the NFS have specific allowances. Ie.: parts listed as set aside, or allowed (beach, etc...). But how about all the rest of the NFS tracts/portions where it's simply silent on the subject? Neither prohibited, nor "allowed" ?

Tom there are no tracts in limbo... it's permitted unless otherwise prohibited... if you want to believe the kooks at the USFS that is lol!

It's pretty bad when there is an expressed allowance and people are still looking for a reason to not detect.

 

[huntsman53]

But how about all the rest of the NFS tracts/portions where it's simply silent on the subject? Neither prohibited, nor "allowed" ?

It is really hard to say! However, it is possible that these may have been covered by a letter of notification written by the Head Ranger over a specific NFS Unit or the District (Head) Ranger long ago and since then, has been long forgotten about and/or either covered up on the Bulletin Board. Notices such as the one at the following link are often hard to find online but are supposed to be posted at the local Ranger Stations http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3791310.pdf While other notices like the following http://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/cherokee/recreation/rocks-minerals/?recid=34864&actid=60 may be available online, they also are sometimes hard to find without extensive searching. Rangers come and go in every NF or NF Unit and when new ones come onboard, they may or may not ever get around to checking on such a topic or ever think of updating something that was addressed long ago. As many have probably taken notice of, there are a lot of NFS personnel such as road and trail maintenance crews and firefighting crews who work very hard every day that they are on duty. However, it has been my experience when visiting the local and district Ranger Stations, that there are a lot of folks in the main offices that really don't do a lot other than answer or make occasional calls and shine the bottoms of their' seats all day when they are on duty. Although the latter personnel are responsible for posting pertinent information as such for the public, it sometimes never gets posted or is filed away in a filing cabinet or some 3 ringed binder that has to be dug out when the question of metal detecting arises. Yeah I know, if you don't ask, then who cares, right! However, not knowing the rules and regulations whether they are correctly and sufficiently posted or not, as we all know, is not a great defense in a Court of Law.


Frank

 

[Tom_in_CA]

It is really hard to say! However, it is possible that these may have been covered by a letter of notification written by the Head Ranger over a specific NFS Unit or the District (Head) Ranger long ago and since then, has been long forgotten about and/or either covered up on the Bulletin Board.....

Frank, I'm finding it hard-to-believe that some offense that can get you or I tickets etc...., can not be looked up, somewhere, somehow. In other words: there's no laws that are "secret".

And let's just grant, for a moment, what you're saying: That yes at one time "it was posted" on the kiosk bulletin board. But has since "fallen off and/or covered over". Or that it was in binder form with all their other "letters of notice", yet .... has gotten lost and "long since forgotten about". Then after I've distinctly asked for the "letters of notifications" then whatever they show me covers my requst, IMHO.

I know you are probably thinking: "what's the big deal about asking 'can I metal detect?', on the off-chance there's a memo buried somewhere deep that's a secret to all but a single desk clerk" , right ? Afterall "you can't be too safe", right? But the devil is in the details: Because you might ask "can I?", and do nothing more than get a subjective whimsical arbitrary "no", d/t they morph something silly to pertain to your "pressing question" (eg.: harming earthworms, etc....)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....However, not knowing the rules and regulations whether they are correctly and sufficiently posted or not, as we all know, is not a great defense in a Court of Law....

Let's test that theory: Let's say that in your city of Jefferson City, TN, they make a law that says "persons named Frank that wear blue shirts on Fridays, are subject to a $100 fine". But it's posted no where . It got lost, covered over, fell out of the binder, etc..... And you fail to ask at city hall "Hi, can I wear a blue shirt next Friday?". Hence you are given a $100 ticket on Friday. Because you wore a blue shirt walking downtown.

So am I to assume you would dutifully pay that ticket, since it was your duty to know the law? Even if that meant inquiring of any laws on the subject that might be buried, lost, not public info, etc... ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...It's pretty bad when there is an expressed allowance and people are still looking for a reason to not detect.

bunny-nugs, Years ago, I read a forum thread about a certain country in the far east / Asia area. Someone was getting ready to go on a business trip there, and was thinking of trying his luck on the beaches. And wanted to know if it was legal. One person's reply was very telling as to the psychology of all this: They looked LONG AND HARD through all the laws, rules, codes, etc.... of the country, state, city, beach, etc.... And could find NOTHING about metal detecting. And then they concluded:

"This isn't looking good. I have a bad feeling ....".

Do you see the psychology ? It's as if they're looking for an express "metal detecting allowed here" law!

And then to make matters worse, you're right: This psychology of human nature carries it a step further: When they get a "yes", they STILL doubt, wonder, worry, etc.... Like in this post for example. Or the humorous story of a guy who gets a "yes" from a lowly park worker (student summer helper cutting weeds in the park). But the worried md'r didn't think that was authoritative enough. Afterall, he appeared be a young newbie worker. So he approached an older fellow in a city truck who had pulled into the park. That person also says "beats me, I don't see why not. Have fun". But THAT ANSWER TOO did not seem authoritative enough. And afterall, he may not be high enough up the ladder to decide. So he goes to city hall, and asks. His question gets bandied back and forth between multiple desks, until someone finally decides "no". True story ! So even express "yes's" aren't enough for some people.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

bunny nugs, I know you're "only prospecting", eh ? Nuggets, meteorites, etc... But just for kicks & giggles, Let's just assume for a minute that you accidentally found a 1964 penny (which is 51 yrs. old). Then after all you've excellently reported here, I'm guessing you would put it back in the ground, right ? Or alert a federal archaeologist ? Or .... ?

Tom, that penny could be 151 years old and it still wouldn't matter. ARPA does not apply to ANY object older than 100 years. It only applies to material remains of human life or activities which are at least 100 years of age, and which are of archaeological interest. It does not apply to coins or bullets unless found in a direct physical relationship with archaeological resources.

Two very important sections to examine are:

1. "No item shall be treated as an archaeological resource... unless such item is at least 100 years of age"

2. "The term “archaeological resource” means any material remains of past human life... as determined under the uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to this Act."

Definitions, SEC. 3. As used in this Act-
(1) The term “archaeological resource” means any material remains of past human life or activities which are of archaeological interest, as determined under the uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to this Act. Such regulations containing such determination shall include, but not be limited to: pottery, basketry, bottles, weapons, weapon projectiles, tools, structures or portions of structures, pit houses, rock paintings, rock carvings, intaglios, graves, human skeletal materials, or any portion or piece of any of the foregoing items. Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological specimens, or any portion or piece thereof, shall not be considered archaeological resources, under the regulations under this paragraph, unless found in an archaeological context. No item shall be treated as an archaeological resource under regulations under this paragraph unless such item is at least 100 years of age."

Now lets have a look at those uniform regulations promulgated pursuant to the Archaeological resource protection act of 1979.

Three very important sections are:

1. "Archaeological resource means any material remains of human life or activities which are at least 100 years of age, and which are of archaeological interest."

2. "Of archaeological interest means capable of providing scientific or humanistic understandings of past human behavior, cultural adaptation, and related topics through the application of scientific or scholarly techniques such as controlled observation, contextual measurement, controlled collection, analysis, interpretation and explanation."

3. "The following material remains shall not be considered of archaeological interest, and shall not be considered to be archaeological resources for purposes of the Act and this part, unless found in a direct physical relationship with archaeological resources as defined in this section: (ii) Coins, bullets, and unworked minerals and rocks."

§ 1312.3 Definitions. As used for purposes of this part:
(a) Archaeological resource means any material remains of human life or activities which are at least 100 years of age, and which are of archaeological interest.
(1) Of archaeological interest means capable of providing scientific or humanistic understandings of past human behavior, cultural adaptation, and related topics through the application of scientific or scholarly techniques such as controlled observation, contextual measurement, controlled collection, analysis, interpretation and explanation.
(2) Material remains means physical evidence of human habitation, occupation, use, or activity, including the site, location, or context in which such evidence is situated.
(3) The following classes of material remains (and illustrative examples), if they are at least 100 years of age, are of archaeological interest and shall be considered archaeological resources unless determined otherwise pursuant to paragraph (a)(4) or (5) of this section:
(i) Surface or subsurface structures, shelters, facilities, or features (including, but not limited to, domestic structures, storage structures, cooking structures, ceremonial structures, artificial mounds, earthworks, fortifications, canals, reservoirs, horticultural/agricultural gardens or fields, bedrock mortars or grinding surfaces, rock alignments, cairns, trails, borrow pits, cooking pits, refuse pits, burial pits or graves, hearths, kilns, post molds, wall trenches, middens);
(ii) Surface or subsurface artifact concentrations or scatters;
(iii) Whole or fragmentary tools, implements, containers, weapons and weapon projectiles, clothing, and ornaments (including, but not limited to, pottery and other ceramics, cordage, basketry and other weaving, bottles and other glassware, bone, ivory, shell, metal, wood, hide, feathers, pigments, and flaked, ground, or pecked stone);
(iv) By-products, waste products, or debris resulting from manufacture or use of human-made or natural materials;
(v) Organic waste (including, but not limited to, vegetal and animal remains, coprolites);
(vi) Human remains (including, but not limited to, bone, teeth, mummified flesh, burials, cremations);
(vii) Rock carvings, rock paintings, intaglios and other works of artistic or symbolic representation;
(viii) Rockshelters and caves or portions thereof containing any of the above material remains;
(ix) All portions of shipwrecks (including, but not limited to, armaments, apparel, tackle, cargo);
(x) Any portion or piece of any of the foregoing.
(4) The following material remains shall not be considered of archaeological interest, and shall not be considered to be archaeological resources for purposes of the Act and this part, unless found in a direct physical relationship with archaeological resources as defined in this section:
(i) Paleontological remains;
(ii) Coins, bullets, and unworked minerals and rocks.
(5) The Federal land manager may determine that certain material remains, in specified areas under the Federal land manager's jurisdiction, and under specified circumstances, are not or are no longer of archaeological interest and are not to be considered archaeological resources under this part. Any determination made pursuant to this subparagraph shall be documented. Such determination shall in no way affect the Federal land manager's obligations under other applicable laws or regulations.
(6) For the disposition following lawful removal or excavations of Native American human remains and “cultural items”, as defined by the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA; Pub. L. 101-601; 104 Stat. 3050; 25 U.S.C. 3001-13), the Federal land manager is referred to NAGPRA and its implementing regulations.
(b) Arrowhead means any projectile point which appears to have been designed for use with an arrow.
(c) Federal land manager means:
(1) With respect to any public lands, the secretary of the department, or the head of any other agency or instrumentality of the United States, having primary management authority over such lands, including persons to whom such management authority has been officially delegated;
(2) In the case of Indian lands, or any public lands with respect to which no department, agency or instrumentality has primary management authority, such term means the Secretary of the Interior;
(3) The Secretary of the Interior, when the head of any other agency or instrumentality has, pursuant to section 3(2) of the Act and with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior, delegated to the Secretary of the Interior the responsibilities (in whole or in part) in this part.
(d) Public lands means:
(1) Lands which are owned and administered by the United States as part of the national park system, the national wildlife refuge system, or the national forest system; and
(2) All other lands the fee title to which is held by the United States, except lands on the Outer Continental Shelf, lands under the jurisdiction of the Smithsonian Institution, and Indian lands.
(e) Indian lands means lands of Indian tribes, or Indian individuals, which are either held in trust by the United States or subject to a restriction against alienation imposed by the United States, except for subsurface interests not owned or controlled by an Indian tribe or Indian individual.
(f) Indian tribe as defined in the Act means any Indian tribe, band, nation, or other organized group or community, including any Alaska village or regional or village corporation as defined in, or established pursuant to, the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act (85 Stat. 688). In order to clarify this statutory definition for purposes of this part, “Indian tribe” means:
(1) Any tribal entity which is included in the annual list of recognized tribes published in the Federal Register by the Secretary of the Interior pursuant to 25 CFR part 54;
(2) Any other tribal entity acknowledged by the Secretary of the Interior pursuant to 25 CFR part 54 since the most recent publication of the annual list; and
(3) Any Alaska Native village or regional or village corporation as defined in or established pursuant to the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act (85 Stat. 688), and any Alaska Native village or tribe which is recognized by the Secretary of the Interior as eligible for services provided by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
(g) Person means an individual, corporation, partnership, trust, institution, association, or any other private entity, or any officer, employee, agent, department, or instrumentality of the United States, or of any Indian tribe, or of any State or political subdivision thereof.
(h) State means any of the fifty states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.
(i) Act means the Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 (16 U.S.C. 470aa-mm).
[49 FR 1028, Jan. 6, 1984; 49 FR 5923, Feb. 16, 1984, as amended at 60 FR 5259, 5260, Jan. 26, 1995]

 

[Tom_in_CA]

bunny, now you're taking this conversation in an entirely different direction. And a good one at that, if I might add! The topic of the nuances of Arpa has come up on past threads. And there are folks, like you're doing here, that believe that coins & bullets are exempted. Because a cursory reading of Arpa does indeed seem to say that.

But the CATCH is, that they're only exempt in-so-far as not found in an archaeological context. And the rub is: There's actually archies that consider B) all federal land to be "an archaeological site". or B) that the minute you find it, makes that spot potentially archaeologically significant. And therefore since no one knows ahead of time where an archaeological site might exist, therefore , no matter how you slice it, you're forbidden to remove it, blah blah blah.

Not that I don't wholeheartedly agree with you. But just saying, purist archies have "end runs" around this

Moral of the story ? Don't ask purist archie's silly questions

 

[huntsman53]

bunny-nugs, Years ago, I read a forum thread about a certain country in the far east / Asia area. Someone was getting ready to go on a business trip there, and was thinking of trying his luck on the beaches. And wanted to know if it was legal. One person's reply was very telling as to the psychology of all this: They looked LONG AND HARD through all the laws, rules, codes, etc.... of the country, state, city, beach, etc.... And could find NOTHING about metal detecting. And then they concluded:

"This isn't looking good. I have a bad feeling ....".

Do you see the psychology ? It's as if they're looking for an express "metal detecting allowed here" law!

And then to make matters worse, you're right: This psychology of human nature carries it a step further: When they get a "yes", they STILL doubt, wonder, worry, etc.... Like in this post for example. Or the humorous story of a guy who gets a "yes" from a lowly park worker (student summer helper cutting weeds in the park). But the worried md'r didn't think that was authoritative enough. Afterall, he appeared be a young newbie worker. So he approached an older fellow in a city truck who had pulled into the park. That person also says "beats me, I don't see why not. Have fun". But THAT ANSWER TOO did not seem authoritative enough. And afterall, he may not be high enough up the ladder to decide. So he goes to city hall, and asks. His question gets bandied back and forth between multiple desks, until someone finally decides "no". True story ! So even express "yes's" aren't enough for some people.

I will make this statement and then I am done with this subject and Thread because for every honest reply, there seems to be a whimsical reply! I don't go looking for reasons not to detect. I look for regulations that allow me to metal detect or do not allow me to metal detect and in this case, in the National Forest here. After many hours of searching online, I could not find the answer, so I called the Ranger Station where I Gold prospect and talked to the Head Ranger there. He told me that metal detecting was allowed for searching for coins and other valuables at specific locations (swimming holes and Lake beaches) but was not allowed anywhere else for Gold prospecting and gave me the Regulation number which I looked up. This one supercedes the one written in 2011 (see the right bottom of first page) http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3791310.pdf and this which I later found Cherokee National Forest - Rocks & Minerals:Metal Detecting As you can see, neither were officially issued by the USDA and NFS and were issued by the Supervising Ranger (via a Supervisor's Order #) which in this case, is usually the Ranger in Charge of the Tellico Ranger Station but also could have came from the Ranger in Charge of the District Office in Cleveland, TN.

The Orders at the links above are authorized by Title 36 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Section 261.50 and as copied and pasted below.


Frank


Subpart B—Prohibitions in Areas Designated by Order

§261.50 Orders.

(a) The Chief, each Regional Forester, each Experiment Station Director, the Administrator of the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit and each Forest Supervisor may issue orders which close or restrict the use of described areas within the area over which he has jurisdiction. An order may close an area to entry or may restrict the use of an area by applying any or all of the prohibitions authorized in this subpart or any portion thereof.

(b) The Chief, each Regional Forester, each Experiment Station Director, the Administrator of the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit and each Forest Supervisor may issue orders which close or restrict the use of any National Forest System road or trail within the area over which he has jurisdiction.

(c) Each order shall:

(1) For orders issued under paragraph (a) of this section, describe the area to which the order applies;

(2) For orders issued under paragraph (b) of this section, describe the road or trail to which the order applies;

(3) Specify the times during which the prohibitions apply if applied only during limited times;

(4) State each prohibition which is applied; and

(5) Be posted in accordance with §261.51.

(d) The prohibitions which are applied by an order are supplemental to the general prohibitions in Subpart A.

(e) An order may exempt any of the following persons from any of the prohibitions contained in the order:

(1) Persons with a permit specifically authorizing the otherwise prohibited act or omission.

(2) Owners or lessees of land in the area;

(3) Residents in the area;

(4) Any Federal, State, or local officer, or member of an organized rescue or fire fighting force in the performance of an official duty; and

(5) Persons engaged in a business, trade, or occupation in the area.

(6) Any other person meeting exemption requirements specified in the order.

(f) Any person wishing to use a National Forest System road or trail or a portion of the National Forest System, should contact the Forest Supervisor, Director, Administrator, or District Ranger to ascertain the special restrictions which may be applicable thereto.

[42 FR 2957, Jan. 14, 1977; 42 FR 24739, May 16, 1977, as amended at 42 FR 35959, July 13, 1977; 46 FR 33521, June 30, 1981; 66 FR 3218, Jan. 12, 2001]

§261.51 Posting.

Posting is accomplished by:

(a) Placing a copy of the order imposing each prohibition in the offices of the Forest Supervisor and District Ranger, or equivalent officer who have jurisdiction over the lands affected by the order, and

(b) Displaying each prohibition imposed by an order in such locations and manner as to reasonably bring the prohibition to the attention of the public.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

bunny, now you're taking this conversation in an entirely different direction. And a good one at that, if I might add! The topic of the nuances of Arpa has come up on past threads. And there are folks, like you're doing here, that believe that coins & bullets are exempted. Because a cursory reading of Arpa does indeed seem to say that.

But the CATCH is, that they're only exempt in-so-far as not found in an archaeological context. And the rub is: There's actually archies that consider B) all federal land to be "an archaeological site". or B) that the minute you find it, makes that spot potentially archaeologically significant. And therefore since no one knows ahead of time where an archaeological site might exist, therefore , no matter how you slice it, you're forbidden to remove it, blah blah blah.

Not that I don't wholeheartedly agree with you. But just saying, purist archies have "end runs" around this

Moral of the story ? Don't ask purist archie's silly questions

Only coins and bullets found in a direct physical relationship with the predefined archaeological resources. A coin on it's own gives no historical significance to a site, the archies can argue all they like but it's a lost cause because it's all defined.

"The following material remains shall not be considered of archaeological interest, and shall not be considered to be archaeological resources for purposes of the Act and this part, unless found in a direct physical relationship with archaeological resources as defined in this section: (ii) Coins, bullets, and unworked minerals and rocks."

"Archaeological resource means any material remains of human life or activities which are at least 100 years of age, and which are of archaeological interest."

"Of archaeological interest means capable of providing scientific or humanistic understandings of past human behavior, cultural adaptation, and related topics through the application of scientific or scholarly techniques such as controlled observation, contextual measurement, controlled collection, analysis, interpretation and explanation."

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....

§261.51 Posting.

Posting is accomplished by:

(a) Placing a copy of the order imposing each prohibition in the offices of the Forest Supervisor and District Ranger, or equivalent officer who have jurisdiction over the lands affected by the order, and

(b) Displaying each prohibition imposed by an order in such locations and manner as to reasonably bring the prohibition to the attention of the public.

Frank, good post. Everything you cite, that the fellow answered you with, simply says that they have the right to control, authorize, etc.... Ok, fine. But I notice the conspicuous absence of any prohibition on md'ing, in that text. Ie.: they have not "exercised their control" to prohibit md'ing. Therefore I see nothing there that would pertain to the question at hand, as to whether or not md'ing is a no-no, or "requires permission/authorization", at NFS. No more so than I would think that I need "permission/authority" to fly frisbees there, etc....

And notice the last part that I highlighted in red. This lends support to my notion that if someone is "skittish" that md'ing "might be disallowed", then laws/rules are no secret. They can be looked up. If I were skittish, I'd merely print that part out, and ask them to "see such orders of posting" specific to the location I am about to go to.

And if they responded by saying "well specifically what is it that you want to know?" , I would stick to my guns and repeat the question: "I want to know where the public can avail themselves of currently active postings, such as this text citations indicate are available for public viewing" And I would not mention metal detecting. I would wait to read for myself if md'ing is, or isn't, listed as a prohibition.