Doing my part

[Icewing]

I decided to take some time to do my part to stand up for our rights as American citizens. I followed the proper channels from the local booth worker all the way to who ever answered the phone at the Arkansas State Parks Dept office. After some time on the phone it became clear that there is no logical reason for banning metal detector in Arkansas's State parks, so I took it upon myself to write both my State Representative and State Senator.

I wonder if I will get a response?

I am _____ of _____. I am writing to you today to request some help in trying to remove the ban on metal detectors being used in Arkansas State Parks.

I am an Arkansas native and many generations of my family that were rooted right here in ______ County. I am big lover or local history and have recently taken up metal detecting as a hobby, it’s great exercise and best of all it's a fantastic way to learn about local history.

However I find it almost repugnant for a state that calls itself “The Natural State” to make picking up discarded or lost metal a criminal activity. I have contacted representatives of the Parks Department and got the expected run around about “preserving history”. However history that is buried in the dirt will inevitably be lost forever either due to oxidation and other natural processes such as soil erosion. Thus having zero educational value.

When I explained my point of view to the Parks Dept. reps they then counter with “well I just work here”. Then try to use the argument about “destroying the land” which is nonsense because there are guys using heavy equipment to carve in hiking trails. They would “I just work here” then give me other outlandish excuses and make unsubstantiated claims about how “the majority of those who metal detect” damaging the dirt. I also heard claims about people who hunt Native American artifact, so again I would remind them metal detectors don't find arrow heads or clay pots.

In truth the majority of people who metal detect are very good stewards of nature and take nearly all of the trash they dig up with them because they don't want to get kicked out and don't want to dig the same trash more than once. Therefore the majority actually leave no trace, and the only ones who do get noticed are the irresponsible minority.

Lifting the ban on metal detecting in state parks doesn't mean that there can’t be limitations or rules in place to prevent or punish those few who go beyond the reasonable practices of the recreational detectorist, such as the tools used to locate items, and requiring that any holes be refilled.

As a responsible tax paying citizen I feel it should be within my rights to use a metal detector on our land, if anything it would be a benefit to nature and The Natural State.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

ice-wing , you will be bowled over with WWWAAYY too many pat packaged answers. If you even get an answer at all I, as most "just help yourself" anti-archaeological md'r around, know all too well the canned answers to your objections. Even though I agree with you. Ie.: I love history too. I too feel they will never be excavated, hence "what's the harm?". And so forth.

But your objections will just land on deaf ears for the reasons I will outline to you. And in fact, your letter will do more harm than good (I know you didn't mean to). Because if such a letter reaches the pertinent powers-that-be (assuming it's not chucked in the trash early on), will only serve to FURTHER ENTRENCH those purists canned-answer touting pencil-pushers to only think ALL THE MORE about md'ing as a "pressing issue" that needs their princely attention, answers, decision, etc....

Ok, here goes:

It's true that even if the most well funded aggressive university archaeological departments will be LUCKY to excavate a few 10 x 10 square pits per year at various historical parks, right ? Hence even in a million years, they'd barely cover a single state park in your state, border to border, right ? Hence what's it harming if you dug up a v nickel or merc dime at an old CCC camp site, an old cellar hole, etc... right ? Obviously THEY will never get to it, and it will rot to eternity, right ? So what do they care ? If it remains in the ground un-known to anyone, then how is anyone harmed? Makes perfect sense to you and I, right ?

But here's the canned purist archie's answer (on the state park's payroll to answer your pressing question) to that: How do YOU know where an archie pit 100 or 500 or 1000 yrs. from now will be dug at ? You can't say for absolute certain that they might not sink an archie pit right at wherever that V nickel was , eh ? And hence you would have robbed that future generation from learning about their past. Shame on you. Example: Consider the Egyptian pyramids: Seemingly innocuous location a mile downstream, turned out to be worker villages where they are doing archie digs nowadays. And shedding light on the pyramid builder/worker lifestyles, history, etc.... and that's thousands of years after they were built, at locations not at "ground zero" of the obvious historic landmark. So too might that V nickels you "rip out of context" now, be of value 2000 yrs from now in a future archie dig. See ?

And let's be dreadfully honest here icewing : If they did allow md'ing at certain seemingly innocuous state parks (with no historic theme), then how about this: If a certain state park had a single historic cabin, yet the rest of it was just a lake, with swim beaches, ball diamonds and the like. Then I suppose we md'r would say: "Why can't we just hunt the beach, sand box, ball diamond, etc... ? How is that hurting anyone ? " But you know FULL WELL that the parks people would be continually "splitting hairs" over just how close you're allowed to that cabin. Or "what constitutes historic" and so forth. So can you really blame them for just making it easy and saying "no md'ing at all of them, border to border" ?

And think back to why there's even laws or rules that you are now fighting in the first place : I'll bet you dollars to donuts it's various people 30+ yrs. ago, who did exactly as you're doing. Either seeking permission (and finding someone to say "no" which then makes its way to a formal rule). Or "seeking clarification" on grey area (deface/alter, cultural heritage, etc...) which only led to further specific-now "no's" and BOL's to rank and file to watch for md'rs (since it's now even more on their plate as a matter of pressing attention).

I'm reading your Arkansas citation on the FMDAC listing, and see that it is indeed dire sounding . More so than CA for instance. But a strict reading of CA's wording might lead someone to believe they can't hunt state of CA administered beaches. (or at least, have to "have ranger permission" and "can't find old stuff" etc...). Yet I can tell you for a fact that you can hunt beaches here till you're blue in the face. The quickest way to bring an end to that, would be to go seeking clarifications, inquiring of rangers, sending letters, etc...

Yes I agree that the answer (no doubt born out of previous inquiries) in your AK is more dire (and no, you didn't personally cause that). But I can also tell you your letter will be of no use. The purist archies will rip it to shreds in canned answers Hence the less they think of us, the better

 

[Icewing]

While I do appreciate your insight, the fact remains that it is illegal here and the only way to change the law is to voice your opinion as a voter. Archie's don't account for enough votes to matter when it comes to politics. The only alternative to trying to change the law through elected representatives is to get arrested and take your chances proving it to be a civil right in the context of who actually owns state property.
If I had thought about it sooner I could have included something about Arkansas being like "liberal" California and it would probably have been on the top of tomorrows agenda.

The only thing certain is that apathy will not accomplish anything, and doing as you please only make the rest of the metal detecting community look bad.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... it is illegal here and the only way to change the law is to voice your opinion as a voter. ....

Sure. So too could we "get the speed limit changed" to 100 mph, if we had enough voter pressure. And if we had the $ and power that the NRA has to buy lobbyists, we could manipulate gun laws in our favor too.

But seriously now, md'ing ? We are in a niche hobby, of relatively few #'s. Unlike the NRA and guns, where....... there's gun buffs on every corner in every city. Why do you think the FMDAC has had so little impact ? Not because of lack of good intentions or "voice of voters". But rather that we're in a niche hobby, hence limited $ and #'s. And in the same way, you're simply not going to get speed limits changed to 100 mph just by sending letters d/t you like to go fast with your corvette. Not that I don't agree with your wishes, but just saying, it's going to fall on deaf ears, and you are NEVER going to out-weigh those archie's when it comes time for them to counter you. EVERY SINGLE state has archies in their state park's dept's payrolls (bless their little hearts).

Rather than trying to get everyone to sign off on you and love your hobby and you, you can also just simply go when those couple of yahoos aren't around to gripe. What they don't see doesn't hurt them afterall. You're the first to say "no one's been harmed", and I agree

And no, this does not make the md'ing community "look bad". In my book, there's more harm (ie.: "looking bad") by the factor of putting md'ing on their front and center radar as something that needs more of their input. THAT'S how rank and file now somehow get a bee -in-their-bonnet of some supposed evil on the part of md'rs. So in my mind, if no one really cared, 'cept a few archies in state capitol who answered some compendium of rule compiling 30 yrs. earlier, then when you just go, and no one really cared or saw you, then THAT'S doing better for the hobby. But that's just me. I realize that some people can't go md'ing, unless they know that everyone signs off on them.

 

[Icewing]

Much to my surprise I already got a response from my state senator:

Mr. _________,


Thank you for getting in touch with me. I will speak with the new Director of the Arkansas State Parks and get back to you about this issue.


If you have not heard anything from me in two weeks, please call me on my cell at __-__-____ .


Sincerely,
Senator Cecile Bledsoe

 

[Icewing]

Tom, your point about changing the speed limit to 100 mph is irrelevant in this argument simply because the speed limit has to do with public safety, metal detecting is no threat to public safety. I don't need everyone to sign off on where I metal detect, I just need to know I am not going to go to jail for trying to enjoy a hobby should some Park Ranger show up. Furthermore someone who is willing to take time to write letters to their elected officials will take time to not only vote but will also tell their friends about how effective those elected officials are.

Why do you think CA has so many ridiculous laws? People like yourself refuse to stand up for your rights and see government as "them" rather than "us". If you wish to change hearts and minds, you have to offer them a different perspective.

If their perception is that we are ruthless greedy treasure hunters out to make a quick buck. It becomes our duty to show them how what we do is good for nature, we love history, we want to educate ourselves about the things we find, and it's good exercise.

Now on the flip side, had there not already been a law prohibiting metal detecting on State Parks, then I would agree wholeheartedly about not giving them a chance to say no. However that's simply not the case in my situation, the only way to legally gain access it to change the law.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I will speak with the new Director of the Arkansas State Parks and get back to you about this issue....

thanx for the update. But I fear that from the "new directors of state parks", this question will then go to the state archie's desk for their input. And then guess what happens ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....because the speed limit has to do with public safety, metal detecting is no threat to public safety.....

Perhaps no threat to "safety", but yes a threat to the public good. It's called cultural heritage, and you can bet your bippy that there are impacts deemed to be bad for the public. Example, it could be said that allowing md'ing at Shiloh, Ghettysburg, or Bodie likewise are not a threat to public safety, are they ? But do you really think that , given enough letters and voter pressure that ANYONE is going to get those places opened up to detecting ?

To which you will no doubt answer that you are NOT angling for those admittedly sensitive historic monuments to be open-game for detecting, right ? Sure, we all agree that some monuments should be protected, and hence you can't go digging in Bodie or whatever Heck, even in your own state park's system, I bet there's some sensitive monument that even you would agree *should* be off-limits d/t cultural heritage concerns, right ?

But the devil is in the details here, because put yourself in their shoes: Do you really think they're going to start splitting hairs over what constitutes innocuous , (ages, locations, etc...) versus what's sensitive ? If they let that camel's nose in the tent (by their way of thinking), then every yahoo with a metal detector will start pushing the envelope, and it becomes a big baby-sitting enterprise. Hence you can almost smell their answer now

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... I don't need everyone to sign off on where I metal detect....

Huh? That seems to be what you're trying to do here though , isn't it ? A noble intent mind you. I'm just saying it aint gonna happen unfortunately.

....I just need to know I am not going to go to jail for trying to enjoy a hobby should some Park Ranger show up.....

Question for you icewing: Can you cite any incident, in your state, where some md'rs "went to jail" for md'ing in a state park ? If you can cite any incident, it's no doubt someone who either couldn't take a warning, or was at some *obvious* historic sensitive monument parading himself around in bright yellow, or ... ?

.... so many ridiculous laws? People like yourself refuse to stand up for your rights and see government as "them" rather than "us". If you wish to change hearts and minds, you have to offer them a different perspective....

Ironically, it's not "lack of visibility" and "lack of objecting" and "lack of letters and pressure" that bring about laws against md'ing. If you were to study all such laws, starting from 40 or 50 yrs. ago (the beginnings of the modern hobby) study to see what put this on their radar as something that "needs a law". I think you will see that rather than being "md'rs who didn't object and seek clarifications and didn't put out their voter voice", that it was actually the SEEKING of blessings, permissions, etc... that brought about the laws. Because the minute you put yourself all over their radar, is the minute they go to address your pressing issue, with laws to address it. Things that, mind you, prior to that, were perhaps not on their radar. I can give you example after example after example of this happening at various govt. agencies.

yes I know this doesn't address what to once a law (or enforcement is actually done) IS ALREADY there. Yes I realize you didn't cause that, etc.. But I'm just saying that don't think that further objections, letters, seeking answers, etc... won't simply cause it to continue down the path even more so. Hence sometimes the less they think of you, the better. Not the other way around.

....If their perception is that we are ruthless greedy treasure hunters out to make a quick buck. It becomes our duty to show them how what we do is good for nature, we love history, we want to educate ourselves about the things we find, and it's good exercise....

I don't think they doubt for a minute your good intentions. Your exercise. Your love of history, your lack of greediness, etc.... None of those are what "brought about the law" and none of those facts will change the law. It boils down to cultural heritage, and nothing you are doing will change that.

.... had there not already been a law prohibiting metal detecting on State Parks, then I would agree wholeheartedly about not giving them a chance to say no. However that's simply not the case in my situation, the only way to legally gain access it to change the law.

Ah ok, so we're seeing eye to eye. And I certainly wish you could do it. But in my experience, you will just be beating your head against the wall, and only bringing more resolve (d/t more brain power expended to your questions/concerns) on their part to enforce.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Icewing, go by what your local law says, same as in Florida no detecting state parks unless the park has a salt water beach and then it is still up to the local ranger...

Do not let anyone convince you to ignore the laws or rules....

 

[Icewing]

As with any legal issue, if only one side presents it's view and the other side remains passive, the side who speaks up wins.
For example, one moron can go out and tear up some public land, so the agency tasked with fixing it requests the entire hobby be banned, and no others in the hobby stand up and say wait this is not the norm in our hobby, punish him not all of us, then who's going to win? Obviously the side who's complaining. Perception is reality, so it's is our duty to change their perception because nobody else is going to.

I went ahead and typed out another letter to Senator Bledsoe:

Thank you for your time and don’t be surprised when you get some bogus political canned answers. The fact is people who metal detect are not ruthless treasure hunters, we are nature lovers with a passion for educating ourselves about history and the things we find. I personally fell in love with metal detecting as a therapeutic way to fight depression and get exercise. I was however shocked to find that I would be labeled a criminal if I took my metal detector with me while hiking on land that I pay taxes to maintain for recreational activities (state parks).

If you would like to learn more about the reality of metal detecting, I would be glad to take you and or the parks director with me to show you first hand.

Also worth noting is that the average metal detector can only detect metal objects within 4-6 inches of the surface, and those who truly enjoy the hobby also like to educate each other on how to do it responsibly so as to prevent further losses to the limited number of places where we do have access like city parks. Think about that city parks typically allow metal detecting and still look great, but state owned forest lands where people can hunt with firearms are off limits. Where is the logic?

This article was written by a friend of mine who also lives here in ______ County and I though it might help shine a light on what we actually do.
Do Metal Detecting Enthusiasts do more harm than good? | Detecting365 Metal Detecting Magazine

Again I thank you for your time.

 

[cudamark]

thanx for the update. But I fear that from the "new directors of state parks", this question will then go to the state archie's desk for their input. And then guess what happens ?

It's already illegal, so, I don't see the harm in fighting it. I agree with Icewing on this one. If it was vague and metal detecting wasn't specifically banned, I'd say keep quiet, hunt at off hours, and leave no trace. Already specifically banned, fight it with facts and be a thorn in their side until they give in to shut you up.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yes, if there's truly already a specific rule/law in place, that truly said "no md'ing" (and not catch all cultural heritage, or alter/deface stuff they're pointing to), then sure, no harm in fighting it. Ie.: it can't get any worse, eh ?

I guess my issue comes in at the enforcement end of the equation : What if ... yes ... there were a law (as the op is saying is specific and not vague in his state). But let's say that the average Joe ranger could care less, or simply wasn't appraised of the minutia ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well, upon further reconsideration: I concede. It really doesn't matter whether "enforced" or not. And/or whether or not such petitioning "increased awareness" against us. Bottom line is, if a rule/law existed, it's doesn't matter whether or not you could actually go (ie.: whether or not anyone cared). Because to someone who has a higher level of caution (ie.: wishes not to tread that line), then sure: Why bank on that? Why not just get it over-turned? Afterall, you can't have a worse answer than an outright "no", so what does it hurt to try ?

Hence I concede on this one . Let's see if Ice-wing could actually bring about a veto of that. Interesting that he got an answer thus far (versus being ignored as I would have thought).

But we can all agree that if it were: A) silent on the issue, or B) subject to vague catch all cultural heritage, or deface/alter, or remove/harvest, then in those cases, sometimes it is best to leave good enough alone.

 

[Icewing]

The first people to give up their freedom are the pessimists because they accept defeat before the battle begins.
If slavery can be abolished, women can vote, and gays can marry (all great things), then we can reclaim our right to metal detect on public land.

It's a bit redundant for the State Parks to host a Geocache program and prohibit metal detecting.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...It's a bit redundant for the State Parks to host a Geocache program and prohibit metal detecting.

Huh ? Geocache programs don't harm cultural heritage , eh ?

 

[Icewing]

Geocaching for Kids - Geocaching in Arkansas - Arkansas State Parks

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ha, and I see from that link that at *some* of the parks in their system, that only park staff can plant the geocache device. Why ? Because of archaeological concerns. Ie.: the person digging to plant the device (or digging to retrieve it) might disturb something.

 

[OZARKS]

See bro... not just me being a pessimist saying these things...others saying same things I did...yknow

Less they think of us the better...but anyway what do I know ...guess not much apparently. So I'll go back under my rock and wish you the best on your quest.

 

[Icewing]

See bro... not just me being a pessimist saying these things...others saying same things I did...yknow

Less they think of us the better...but anyway what do I know ...guess not much apparently. So I'll go back under my rock and wish you the best on your quest.

Failure doesn't scare me, you can't lose something you never had.
You can't succeed if you never try, and won't try if you are convinced you can't succeed.
Good day to you....