It finally happened, Investigated for Detecting!

[Tom_in_CA]

..... That WE can, will and DO actually fight for OUR Rights.....

Barker, yes: Honorable mention and a 12-pack for deft-tones.

But let's all keep in mind that this is the last resort. It's a great story. But none of us should go defiantly out and look for trouble. We are, afterall, in a hobby that has connotations (that you & I might be about to leave holes). So the much more preferable situation, is to stay out-of-sight, and out-of-mind. Not "spit in people's holy water".

But if it came down to it, and there was no way to avoid singular gripers (can't simply return when they're gone, etc....), then yes: Sometimes we have no choice.

 

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[BARKER]

Hi Tom; Your no fun.!! "But none of us should go defiantly out and look for trouble. PEACE:RONB

 

[kcm]

Tones, thank you SSSOOOOOO much for that wonderful, exhilarating, and very, VERY funny story!!

"May the (police) force be with you"

 

[Honest Samuel]

I am very proud of you. If I was you, I would had to leave many times to go to the bathroom. There are fools in every state. Hope you find many coins and jewels. Good hunting and good luck.

 

[BARKER]

Hi; I only hope that ALL here use deft tones example here when confronted with these types of situations. I have had several similar situations like this one happen. I'm glad to say that I have prevailed in each one of them using the same tactics that deft tones used.I know the same is true of many others here. Knowledge is Power. It just depends on how you use it. Folks; the next time you are confronted with this type situation please use tact.Be Polite yet firm. The Police are usually going to side with you when you show them that there are no Laws against you metal detecting except in given areas such as Cemeteries, Historical Sites, Restricted areas etc. ALWAYS obey the Laws but do not allow yourselves to be run over by them as well. If someone starts yelling or swearing at you call the Police. You have the Right not to be threatened by ANYONE regardless of their positions. They are NOT Gods ok. It is with this very same Resolve that our ForeFathers fought the Revolutionary War.Instead of shrinking back from adversity They Prevailed. It is time that We prevail over this type of Tyranny ourselves.
If We do not then We "WILL" eventually lose Our Rights to go metal detecting Nation wide. This fight is up to not an entire Army of detectorists but rather it is up to each one of us individually. "An Army Of One." It is with this said that I await your replies. What say ye Folks ?? PEACE:RONB

 

[Deft Tones]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to read all that text. I will attempt at least a reply to each of you tomorrow when my schedule permits more time.

I encourage everyone to know what your rights are under your laws and yield them to no one without a fight. This is still America.

I took a big gamble, a calculated gamble, but at no time did I feel I would fear explaining to a Judge the rediculousness of wielding laws to beat me into compliance that were adopted prior to the first real metal detectors in public use. I'd just assume talk with a reasonable man... and the one who's opinion and interpretation of both the spirit and intent of the law is the only opinion that actually matters. Send me before the Judge, please.

 

[Deft Tones]

Yes, Sir. I associate your name with metal detecting legality and ethical discussions. For better or worse, you actually brought the issue to my attention and made me begin to think, what if that happens to me? How prepared am I to stand up for my rights if pressed? Two questions I set about to resolve.

So it was your influence that made me broach the subject with a local practicing attorney to engage in friendly hypothetical discussions concerning our hobby. He clued me into many local nuances I'd have glossed over on my own, yet none of them would affect our hobby under normal circumstances. To me it's so interesting how a great attorney could potentially twist unrelated laws to fit a specific "crime".

The most valuable tool we have to maintain our hobby is also the same tool that can wipe us out, the Law. Others exercise their rights to use the law to thwart our past time, and we need to exercise our rights under the law to preserve and maintain our hobby within our communities.

Tom, I owe you a bit of gratitude for initiating my thoughts on this subject. I know you've been harping on this topic for many years, but I am here to say, I like how you think, and I agree with much of what you post. Thank you for keeping an important subject fresh and thinking aloud about these issues. It does have an affect.

Ripples from your mind through time and all that.

Thank you Tom in CA.

 

[Deft Tones]

OK, first off congrats on standing your ground, perhaps that will educate officers in the future.


Why do so many State side have trouble with the police at first and then after a couple hours of education the cops back off. Are the police in the US so willing to show their ignorance in a certain field that they will most likely not ever specialize in.

I work a specific field, and I stick to that field and rarely ever step outside my Lane. Nearly every other LEO I know is the same way; we specialize in a certain area and know without a doubt every law and bi-law related. Why on earth would someone go out of their way to give even one more person (tax payer) a reason to not trust the full ability & judgment of the Law and Justice.

I guess there just must be some very top secret program going on in the US that involves screwing with the public and making your self look very stupid in the process. Here stupidity is the fastest way to get fired from your job, second fastest abusing your power.

My trouble is that I still see the US as it was when I left it back in 2001; I guess some things changed.

So again congrats on standing your ground and educating the same people who should already know their lane and the laws in their; even though it is not your job to teach officers the law I am sure your brief public service will have a positive future affect on our fellow hunters in your area.

Thank You,

Thank you, Sir.

I believe that the LEO's in the States are so under-staffed and so overworked, they don't want anything but to maintain the peace. If maintaining the peace means kicking out a guy at the park based upon a complaint from a bogus Parks and Rec employee... then it's easiest to just say, "You, get lost!" To their benefit (the LEO), most people will be conditioned to avoid confrontation with the police, so it's just too easy to continue to say, "Get out or get a citation.".... even when LEO has no clue what charges they might be able to come up with. Often it's thought, "I can find something".

I trust LEO when it comes to enforcing the laws. Interpreting the laws not so much. That's hit or miss, and most times the public is dealing with a Jr. Officer with limited experience. That's just how it goes when promoting among the ranks. When veteran LEO get the better investigative or supervisory positions their experience, wisdom, and judgment is lost on the public as the younger officers fill the ranks. So, while I don't think they go out of their way to erode public trust, they are in the midst of on-the-job-training in my view.

Again thank you, but I'm certain I will have no further problems from LEO until City Council passes a specific code. But trouble within the Parks Dept itself... that remains to be seen.

Respect to you, Sir.

 

[Deft Tones]

I know how you feel. Sometimes you get so fed up with "scrams" when there is no real law regarding your activity, and you just want to say "put up, or shut up" when they threaten you with a bogus violation. The only problem you may have now is, you're on their radar when it comes to future restrictions or conditional use of that park. Hope they're not into spiteful revenge.

I understand what you're saying, and it's likely that our hobby is front and center at the morning meeting down at the Police station, but I'm hoping that it's brought to the attention of all LEO officers and that they should leave us alone because our activity is legal.

Like I said, the Officers were completely professional in their conduct. I think the three that I had on site have more than enough integrity to accept the law and accept my hobby without being spiteful. I guess I'm not to concerned about that, but will cross that bridge when I arrive.

Thanks for commenting.

 

[Deft Tones]

Originally Posted by cudamark View Post
I know how you feel. Sometimes you get so fed up with "scrams" when there is no real law regarding your activity, and you just want to say "put up, or shut up" when they threaten you with a bogus violation. The only problem you may have now is, you're on their radar when it comes to future restrictions or conditional use of that park. Hope they're not into spiteful revenge.

I've been looking forward to answering this one.

Let them pass a new code at the council meeting. We'll see how long that lasts. If I'm aware of any proposal to prohibit our hobby I'll be right there front and center to fight them all the way. There are two things I have going for me - I have both time and money = the bane of public officials on the defensive. I also have young boys that enjoy this hobby with me. I'll fight for their rights and freedoms much more vigorously than my own... just like a PaPa Bear would. Believe that!

I actually am quite argumentative when I don't control myself. I'll argue just to argue and take any position the other doesn't want. More than the study of law I love the study of rhetoric. So, I'd relish the chance to abuse the City Council with a crash course. Bring it!

I can be the grain of sand inside the Oyster shell. All the irritation I bring will eventually produce something beautiful.

 

[Deft Tones]

Good job! I couldn't have done it as well. You have my respect.
Jim

I know we should all "know thyself", at least better than anyone else could, but I'd suggest you not underestimate your potential.

You're not dead yet, so there is still much work that can be done with a little effort. At least that's how I feel about myself.

If you can reason and logically work things out, and keep your emotions in check, then there is no way you can't do just as well.

 

[Deft Tones]

I don't know Deft Tones but when he started hanging around taking pictures I would have complained that he was harassing me. Idiots, you can find them everywhere.

I know the law though. His photographing of my gear was perfectly within his legal rights as we were both on public property. I didn't like it initially, but I had to put my distaste in check and allow it.

He was within his legal rights, what could I do?

If I complain to the Officers present of harassment about his picture taking, then I look like the same idiot ignorant of the law as he did.

The real angle would have been a harassment complaint after his continued instance on my citation and eviction in the face of overwhelming contrary opinion on the matter. The guy just didn't/couldn't understand why I am allowed to be there doing what I do. I wasn't really feeling harassed though. I felt irritation and frustration more than anything.

Thanks.

 

[Deft Tones]

Hi Deft tones; WAY TO GO.!!! AWESOME.!!! If all of us here do the same exact thing when we are challenged like that then maybe the BS will stop once and for all and those in so called Power finally get the messege that WE are not going to take it anymore. That WE can, will and DO actually fight for OUR Rights. Then maybe even the idiots who like giving us a hard time because they have nothing else to do will actually grow up and leave us alone.
I hereby VOTE Honorable Mention. PEACE:RONB

I hope there is an example somewhere in that wall of text (mine) for someone to gain insight from.

Self empowerment is a good thing and will benefit the one who seeks it out.

I would humbly ask to be un-nominated or un-voted for anything. I'm not even sure what you are referring to, but I don't care to have any special recognition. Thank you, sincerely.

 

[Deft Tones]

Brava Deft tones! Great recap. Although none of us envy you, and none of us want that to happen, yet you handled it well.



This comment alone tells me you were level headed during the issue. Because it is way-too-easy for all of us to become anti-cop and mad. So the fact you could keep this professionalism to respect their hard job, is a an added bravo to you !




Yes. This is the big "gotcha" in all this. Technically *could* have looked at your singular slit (that was so imperceptible that you had to find and show it to them), and have determined that "this constitutes defacement". Put yourselves in their shoes: Even if they WERE forced to admit you're doing no harm, yet in the back of their mind, they may be thinking : "Gee we have all these yahoos out in the park with their detectors. How do we know the next guy might not be so neat and clean ?".

Fortunately that wasn't the case. But just pointing out that yes: they do have a bit of wiggle room of discretion to fit statutes to fall under various categories.

Again Bravo !

Thank you Tom.

You're absolutely correct on discretion. I knew I was going to be almost entirely dependent on the SGT's discretion as to whether I'd be receiving a citation or not. I also was certain, and still am, that a Judge would consider any citation received as an incorrect application of the law. I suppose I'll never know for certain until I stand before one in defense.

It's funny, but when Officer 2 was on the phone, I could hear him saying things like, "We see them all over the city". I guess it's never been a problem and it's still not.

Now, had I not proactively been laying out objections to digging, altering, removing, etc., then I know for certain they would have tried to cite me or kick me out based upon those unrelated codes. They were brought up on the phone to the 2nd Officer, but he was like, "No, no, no.... no. No." I'm glad he actually listened to me while waiting for whomever to find the appropriate codes because he ended up rejecting them on my behalf.

I know they really weren't there to cause problems, but to stamp one out before it could get out of hand... not that I'd be starting anything, but who knows about Mr. Emotional?

This is why I prefer to just say "Call the Police", because I'd rather reason with police when they are not so emotionally invested in the outcome of a dispute.

 

[Deft Tones]

Tones, thank you SSSOOOOOO much for that wonderful, exhilarating, and very, VERY funny story!!

"May the (police) force be with you"


View attachment 1321012

You're very welcome. Thank you for all your kind comments in this thread and others.

I hope someone who has been evicted unjustly from a public park gains some small satisfaction from this incident in knowing you can do this...it's possible to, and they can fight and win.

Thanks so much KCM.

 

[Deft Tones]

I am very proud of you. If I was you, I would had to leave many times to go to the bathroom. There are fools in every state. Hope you find many coins and jewels. Good hunting and good luck.

Thank you. That's hilarious because I did have to pee but had to hold it for over an hour because this park has no bathroom facilities and cops were all around! LMAO! Public urination sure would have been an ugly mark for detectorists, eh?

Just imagine the statement I could have made had I received an actual citation... that thing would have been soaked!

 

[cudamark]

I understand what you're saying, and it's likely that our hobby is front and center at the morning meeting down at the Police station, but I'm hoping that it's brought to the attention of all LEO officers and that they should leave us alone because our activity is legal.

Like I said, the Officers were completely professional in their conduct. I think the three that I had on site have more than enough integrity to accept the law and accept my hobby without being spiteful. I guess I'm not to concerned about that, but will cross that bridge when I arrive.

Thanks for commenting.

Fortunately, you'll likely get your wish, for the moment anyway. You were lucky to get some sane LEO's go deal with. That's not always the case in my experience.

 

[Deft Tones]

Yeah, I know the Dept has all kinds. If I had not been as fortunate in my LEO lottery I'd be posting up how I'm planning to beat the charges in Court. That's fine with me too.

 

[cudamark]

I've been looking forward to answering this one.

Let them pass a new code at the council meeting. We'll see how long that lasts. If I'm aware of any proposal to prohibit our hobby I'll be right there front and center to fight them all the way. There are two things I have going for me - I have both time and money = the bane of public officials on the defensive. I also have young boys that enjoy this hobby with me. I'll fight for their rights and freedoms much more vigorously than my own... just like a PaPa Bear would. Believe that!

I actually am quite argumentative when I don't control myself. I'll argue just to argue and take any position the other doesn't want. More than the study of law I love the study of rhetoric. So, I'd relish the chance to abuse the City Council with a crash course. Bring it!

I can be the grain of sand inside the Oyster shell. All the irritation I bring will eventually produce something beautiful.

I wish you all the success in that endeavor. It looks like you have an interest, some expertise, and desire to pursue that path. Personally, I'd rather detect than swat a hornet's nest. Battling in court and/or city council meeting is not my idea of fun. I'm in metal detecting for the long haul.....46 year now and counting. Hopefully I can do it another 46 years. You never know what the outcome will be if you go to court or get politicians involved. You might get lucky and have rules passed that roll out the red carpet for you, but, don't hold your breath on that one. Even if you do, the next rookie cop might cite you as being a public nuisance, or some other such nonsense. Better to have no rules and keep a low profile to avoid these things IMO.

 

[Fletch88]

Fletch: This is entirely possible. Yes. That although deft-tones prevailed, yet those who dickered with him could go to the next council meeting with a new proposed rule for approval. Is that what you are hinting at ? Sure, it's possible.

BUT WHAT WAS HIS CHOICE?

If he'd just said "ok" and left, never to return, at the first hint of scram, then this outcome (not allowed in the parks) is his result. Or if he'd gone to city hall to fight it, seek clarification, etc.... The SAME result you fear might have happened. Or if he'd gone in before hand "seeking permission", the same "rule" you speak of might have been written to "address this pressing issue". So what was deft-tone's choice ?

Yes that is exactly what I was hinting at! I suppose if you go to public parks at certain times you are asking for such altercations. I choose my times wisely so such interactions don't ever happen. As a matter of fact I very rarely hunt public parks because of this issue.