What are the federal laws in USA regarding finding a buried coin cache?

[wingmaster]

I wouldn't say anything but if I did you shouldn't have to pay more than face value as those are still legal tender, if you were to put them into your bank account you will get face value for every coin. HH

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

I wouldn't say anything but if I did you shouldn't have to pay more than face value as those are still legal tender, if you were to put them into your bank account you will get face value for every coin. HH

If this is the case, then why did the CA couple , who found the coins, have to pay taxes on the market value ? (not the face value). Did you see that in the link ? And this was going to be true EVEN IF THEY ELECTED not to sell in that first year. Check out the rationale for that part of the story, and then see if you can stick to this claim.

 

[Clay Diggins]

If this is the case, then why did the CA couple , who found the coins, have to pay taxes on the market value ? (not the face value). Did you see that in the link ? And this was going to be true EVEN IF THEY ELECTED not to sell in that first year. Check out the rationale for that part of the story, and then see if you can stick to this claim.

What link are you talking about Tom? I see none in this thread.

There is a lot of speculation about what did or didn't happen with a couple in California who found some gold coins. I say speculation because I know that couple and there is nothing in this thread or any of the articles I've read that had any inkling of the truth of what happened.

Perhaps sticking to the law or the facts might give this thread some direction that would be useful to the original poster.

 

[Honest Samuel]

When in doubt, contact a tax lawyer, who can keep you out of jail.

 

[Iron Buzz]

Is this a hypothetical situation or is there more to your first post here?!?

Yeah. We won't tell a soul. Cross our hearts.

 

[G.A.P.metal]

Quote
Say I get permission to dig on someone's property and I find a buried cache. Say I signed a written agreement with the landowner prior to finding the treasure detailing that we both get 50/50. What must I do then with the treasure?

As a land owner, i would never sign any kind of contract....been metal detecting for 48 years,never asked anyone to do that.
Gary

 

[Honest Samuel]

With due respect to # 46, I total disagree. We live and work with contracts. Oral contracts involve treasures, are not any good. If treasure hunters do not have written contracts with land owners, they can take all the treasures with guns, and there is nothing the treasure hunters can do. With written contracts, the land owners cannot take all the treasures illegal. Also, the contracts states how the treasures is divided and how it is sold. Most coin dealers are crooks and do not give even fifty percent of what the treasures are worth. The best way of selling coins treasures is through a coin auction house, like Stack Bowers in New York City. I do not work for them. If you sell your coins treasures through a coins auction house, they charge a small commission, and then you both receives checks for what your contracts are with the land owner. A metal detector dealer in Connecticut demands all the time on written contracts, and I agree with him. I am researching a buried treasure in Connecticut that is worth millions of dollars, and I do not know the land owner and they do not know me, and I would never have oral contract, just a written contract. I always pay federal and state income taxes, from selling buried treasures and working jobs. I sleep good at night. Good hunting and good luck.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

What link are you talking about Tom? I see none in this thread....

Sorry Clay-diggins, I didn't see this post till now. Here it is. Read and weep

Couple That Found $10 Million in Gold Coins Will Have to Hand Over HOW MUCH in Taxes? ? TheBlaze

 

[insontis]

Finders, keepers; talkers, weepers.

 

[sprailroad]

I viewed Tom's post # 48. It is absolutely insane. So it seems that if I found these coins on my property, and I do not want to sell them, I just like sitting at home and enjoy looking at them, nothing more, not looking for any wealth, just like looking at them. Federal Government learns about what I've FOUND, NOT earned, awarded, gifted or any thing else, and it has value, they decide that they want 1/2. So OK, 100 million, they want 50 million, that same year, like right NOW. Well, I don't have 50 mil in my checking account at the moment, and if I do not "pay up", there will be penalty's & interest. So now I am FORCED to sell something that I did not want to, in order to pay what they believe they are entitled to. When I sell them just to pay a tax bill, will they then say, since you sold 50 mill worth of coins, we will now count that as income, and tax you on that as well? tax you again? In Calif. it states that Top rate of joint "INCOME" of 1 mil or more is 13.3 per cent". Key word to me is Income. How can it be "Income" if it was not earned etc. but found, with not even wanting to sell it. It's just like an inheritance tax, and this has happened, say a ranch has been in the same family for four generations, the third generation rancher dies, his son inherits the ranch, Gov. says on paper it's worth 5 mil, you now owe us one million, the son does not have a million dollars laying around, so he's now FORCED to sell assets or the ranch itself to pay tax on something his great grandfather started. This whole thing with these gold coins and the Gov. tax bill is again absolutely insane. To me it is legalized theft/greed. Question to "Honest Sam", If you were to find a dozen marbles, (and I like marbles) and you were to take them home, because you like looking at them, should you report that find, because those twelve marbles could be worth $1.20 cents, and you should pay a tax on them so that you can sleep better at night? Do you think the IRS would even care. 100 million? I'm sure their eyes got big, and fingers began to twitch, legalized theft/greed. Can't stand it anymore, going outside with another cup of coffee and have a smoke.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... So it seems that if I found these coins on my property, and I do not want to sell them, I just like sitting at home and enjoy looking at them, nothing more, not looking for any wealth, just like looking at them. Federal Government learns about what I've FOUND, NOT earned, awarded, gifted or any thing else, and it has value, they decide that they want 1/2. ....

Glad you liked the link sprailroad. Yeah kinda crazy, eh ? But since you and I abide by the "metal detector's code-of-ethics" (which says to "know and obey all laws"), therefore you would certainly abide by this law as well ? All you gotta do is sell them after all, to generate the ability to pay this bill. No problems then, eh ?

What I find odd whenever the questions of troves and taxes and such comes up, is that 99% of the md'rs chiming in will say "keep your mouth shut" and/or "sell a little at a time" blah blah. In other words, they're quick to roll their eyes at such laws. Kind of like "spitting on sidewalks" laws, where no one cares UNLESS you "made a stink", eh ?

But on the other hand, md'rs will WORRY THEMSELVES SILLY about the places they can and can't detect. Fretting about distinctions of various types federal, state, county, city, forests, beaches, deserts, etc.... Dutifully trying to "obey all laws" in THOSE respects . Even in places where, quite frankly, you're in the middle of nowhere, etc... I guess people ultimately pick which laws to obey.

 

[Honest Samuel]

# 50, You must be kidding of course. IRS are not interesting in your marbles. As I stated many times, IRS is not interesting in the small stuff, if you find $100.00 in coins for a whole summer, and take daily records of your finds, you be wasting their time with all your paper work. None of us is going to find 100 millions dollars in treasures. I will pay state and federal income taxes on all treasures, so I can sleep better. I am not going to waste my time in taking down records daily to report the coins and jewel that I find on my local beaches. You do not have to pay taxes on treasures until you sell them. Good hunting and good luck.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Honest Samuel, I love your forum inputs all over T'net's pages! Always a refreshing voice !

.... IRS is not interesting in the small stuff, if you find $100.00 in coins for a whole summer, and take daily records of your finds, you be wasting their time with all your paper work. ....

Really ? Let's test this statement: Go to an IRS auditor. Tell him "Hello. I just made $100 in income. Am I required to report it on my income taxes?". Then sit back and listen for his obligatory answer. He will say "yes. All income must be reported". Hence how can you say they're "not interested ?"

.... You do not have to pay taxes on treasures until you sell them. ....

You must not have read the link in post # 48 then. Tsk tsk.

 

[Honest Samuel]

I always enjoy reading Tom great interesting comments. IRS agents get high pay, and they were give you dirty looks if you come in with many pages of logs stating what income that you find in single coins in parks and beaches. Trust me. If not, contact them and info us what these hard working agents tell you. Keep in touch. Good hunting and good luck. I have a lot of time on my hands, like you.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Sorry Clay-diggins, I didn't see this post till now. Here it is. Read and weep

Couple That Found $10 Million in Gold Coins Will Have to Hand Over HOW MUCH in Taxes? ? TheBlaze

Not weeping Tom. Thanks for sharing the article you were thinking of. That paid article quotes a newspaper that refers to a lower court decision and quotes an IRS brochure:

In its 2013 tax guide, the Internal Revenue Service states, “If you find and keep property that does not belong to you that has been lost or abandoned (treasure-trove), it is taxable to you at its fair market value in the first year it is your undisputed possession.”

The finders of those coins owned all the property, and all rights in the property, the coins were found on. The land is a mineral patent and only excludes the right to federal ditches and canals from that ownership. There is a long history of federal law and court decisions backing up that statement. Clearly everything on the property belongs to the couple who purchased it as part of the sale. To claim these coins were not already bought and paid for by the couple would be a very far stretch of the imagination. They own the minerals in the ground, the houses, the old cars, the relics found there and any cans of coins, marbles, barbie doll heads or paper clips found there. ALL the property belongs to them.

Some taxes may be due upon the sale of any of their owned property whether it be paper clips or coins but it's an absurd notion that they would owe any taxes on property they already own and haven't made any income from. If you find gold coins on your own property you do not owe any taxes just because you found them.

These articles claiming stuff like

A California couple that discovered $10 million worth of gold coins last year will have to pay nearly half that amount in federal and state income tax, regardless of whether they sell the coins.

are nothing but fear mongering. If you really want to know what the tax laws are I suggest you study the tax laws themselves and forego tax advise from the BLAZE or any other internet source - including myself.

 

[BigWaveDave]

Anyone notice that the op disappeared as soon as the send button was hit?
Maybe they don't care about anyone's advice or responses...
Or maybe they found a huge cashe?

 

[SeabeeRon]

Anyone notice that the op disappeared as soon as the send button was hit?
Maybe they don't care about anyone's advice or responses...
Or maybe they found a huge cashe?

Hence my "one hit wonder" post a ways back in this thread.

If we could check his IP and wonder what it would show??!?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Not weeping Tom. Thanks for sharing the article you were thinking of...... These articles claiming stuff like are nothing but fear mongering. ....

Excellent post clay-diggins . I TOO was captivated by the "fear mongering" headline titles. Hey, after all, if it's in print from a reputable newspaper, IT MUST BE TRUE. Right ? And as you can see from the headline (headlines never lie) : It was "regardless of whether they sell the coins". And one would *assume* that this was written with full knowledge that the couple owned the land (hence all that is contained on/in it !). Right ?

But as your further study of semantics shows, all-is-not as the headline necessarily states. Given some "qualifiers". Good job ! So too has there been md'rs worrying-themselves-silly about restrictions they read. Without doing exactly as you just did: Read deeper and define words. The average brain (mine included) stops at headline and "dire info".

I bet if the couple went ahead and paid taxes on the unsold coins (even if not required d/t semantics), that the IRS would GLADLY have accepted their money with no questions asked. Thus showing that it was indeed due. Right ?

 

[Honest Samuel]

Tom, you think too much. I do enjoy reading your great interested comments.

 

[sprailroad]

Hence my "one hit wonder" post a ways back in this thread.

If we could check his IP and wonder what it would show??!?

IRS Employee?