Getting permissions on corporate farms

[Eleven Cents]

I'd like to get metal detecting permissions on farm land. Unfortunately, most of the farms in my area are corporate owned. Some of them are in areas that been farmed for a long time, so there might be old coins and relics to be found. But it's not like there's a farm house I can walk up to and knock on the door.

Has anyone ever had success getting permissions on corporate farms? How did you approach them?

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

I'd like to get metal detecting permissions on farm land. Unfortunately, most of the farms in my area are corporate owned. Some of them are in areas that been farmed for a long time, so there might be old coins and relics to be found. But it's not like there's a farm house I can walk up to and knock on the door.

Has anyone ever had success getting permissions on corporate farms? How did you approach them?

If you are talking "corporate" farms, with no structures or actual habitations (no farm houses, etc...) on them, then ....... are you speaking of mega-concerns where some big outfit does row crops on thousands and thousands of acres ? If so, then this is not unlike my area of CA. We are the "salad bowl" of the country. Leaf veggies are grown up and down the Salinas valley. And in the old days (prior to about WWII), it was typically all 30 to 100 acre type plots, where a family could actually make a living off their land. But all that gave way to the mega-outfits, as expensive mechanized machinery started taking over. All the small farms sold out, or simply lease out their land now, to the corporations, who do it on a grand scale now. And little farms disappeared. Folks moved into the cities, etc....

Now you'd be hard-pressed to find an "owner". And once you did, it would be , like you surmise: Some corporation in a far away city, blah blah. And if you ever DID see people out working the land (agriculture workers, harvesters, etc... ) they are never the owners. They are usually no habla englis workers.

We have a few spots here where we researched that old spots (stage stops, adobe sites, etc...) stood on what is now just ag. land. And ... quite frankly .... we just wait till fallow season and go. As long as it's the scenario you describe. Obviously if we're talking someone's personal yard, or place where indeed their farm is right there, then .... that would be different.

If that's not to your taste, then all you can do is go to the assessor's office. Track down the owner of the land, and .... knock yourself silly asking. You might get a reply. You might not. I worked for one of the big ag. firms in Salinas in the 1980s, and I can't imagine such a letter or email making it past the first desk. But .... you're welcome to try.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Before searching, you have to find where the old buildings were and other locations where coins may be buried.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Before searching, you have to find where the old buildings were and other locations where coins may be buried.

Correct. The USA is not like British and European fields. Our USA history is too young to make "any random field" worth hunting. Contrast to Europe, where it's possible that some farm fields have seen 3000+ yrs. of continuous cultivation. Of which 2900 of those years were hand labor. Contrast to the USA where the oldest a field could have seen continuous cultivation, is 200 to 300 yrs.

Hence in the USA, someone trying old fields just for sake-of-field-worker losses, will find themselves pretty bored after awhile. Needles in haystacks to find a long lost wheatie that a harvester lost in the 1920s. Instead, here in the USA, we have to research where some focused purposeful activities occurred. Eg.: picnic ground, stage stop, homestead, etc...

 

[Eleven Cents]

Sounds like good advice. Thanks.

 

[releventchair]

Trespass laws here would put anyone without permission at risk of eventual fines..
Hunting game permissions have evolved into lands well watched for any unpermitted traffic.
Even ag lands can have hunting rights leased and doubly defended by owners and lessee's and now even game cameras that stream live.
Private land owner rights do get defended here when wildlife habitat is involved.

Anyway ,where an actual owner is not convenient I have acquired a permission from a caretaker.

A worker approached would be one option if I was just out scouting for sites and ask who's in charge or who is the boss.

Once who ever is in charge was located I would treat it like any hunting permission request as far as being respectful of tender crops ,where to park my vehicle ,leaving any gates the way I found them ,no littering , areas to avoid ( you'd be surprised) does some one need to be contacted when I am leaving? ( Most farmers/ farms want to know ,so not to wonder if you broke a leg or two. )

 

[Icewing]

Go buy a share of stock in the company, then sell it when you are done.

(Nobody should ever take legal advice from me)

 

[Clay Diggins]

That's a popular myth. Stock doesn't give you ownership in the company. Even if it did (it doesn't) it would still be theft to take the assets of the company for yourself.

You need to get written permission from the land owners. Not a worker, someone passing by or caretaker. Those who don't own a thing can't give you permission to take it. Taking things you find on private property you don't own or have permission to hunt is theft in every State. It doesn't matter whether crops are planted or if no one is looking. Taking things that are not yours is a crime. It's that simple.

Just ask. It's not that hard and surprisingly often you will get the permission you need to detect private property.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

That's a popular myth. Stock doesn't give you ownership in the company. Even if it did (it doesn't) it would still be theft to take the assets of the company for yourself.

You need to get written permission from the land owners. Not a worker, someone passing by or caretaker. Those who don't own a thing can't give you permission to take it. Taking things you find on private property you don't own or have permission to hunt is theft in every State. It doesn't matter whether crops are planted or if no one is looking. Taking things that are not yours is a crime. It's that simple. ...

C-diggins, I notice that your angle of logic is not on the "trespassing" issue. And instead is on the "taking" (aka "stealing") aspect of pinching a coin off some corporation's ag. crop field. Very interesting.

Because technically, you're right : Taking that coin from the row crops is *technically* "stealing". But let me ask you a question: Although what you're saying is technically true, But do you see a difference in the following:

If you went over to that corporation head's house, went over to his night-stand, and "took" (ie.: "stole") a dime or gold ring off his nightstand. Versus a dime or gold ring in a field. Technically the answer is that both are identical. Even though the corp. owner MAY INDEED know he's now missing his gold ring or dime, versus the one in the field that had been there for 100 yrs, that he DIDN'T know was "missing" (in fact, he never even knew it was there). I don't know why, but for some reason, people tend to see a difference between something that is unknown, versus that-which-was-known. Even though technically, in the eyes of the law, there is no difference.

Or put another way, if we start down this path of logic, then so too would we have to conclude that by taking (ie.: stealing) coins from a park or a school yard are equally illegal. Because there is always laws on-the-books which forbid "harvest", "remove", "take", of any park feature. Obviously the rules are so that no one thinks he can start harvesting the sod for use in his own garden. Or taking home the park benches etc... But there is no technical reason why the same rules can't apply to individual fumble fingers coins. Yet ....... if you look around you, you see scores of posts of people who "take" (aka steal) coins from public places.

Why ? Because deep down inside, we all subconsciously know there is a difference because that item in the ground was un-known, lost, etc... Ie.: as if it DIDN'T "exist" till it was brought to the surface. Is that technically defensible ? No. But just sayin' that if you start down that path of definitions, is the day you can like-wise cease detecting all forms of public land as well.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

" You need to get written permission from the land owners. " ....

A verbal "ok" is good enough for me. In fact, by putting a contract for some land/corporate owner to sign, would seem to be the FASTEST way to get that "yes" turned to a "no". Seems to just conjur up legal hassles. So a casual verbal handshake from whomever's closest at hand to grant it, is good enough for me. For some reason I don't argue with "yes" very often, I guess.

 

[cudamark]

A verbal "ok" is good enough for me. In fact, by putting a contract for some land/corporate owner to sign, would seem to be the FASTEST way to get that "yes" turned to a "no". Seems to just conjur up legal hassles. So a casual verbal handshake from whomever's closest at hand to grant it, is good enough for me. For some reason I don't argue with "yes" very often, I guess.

I agree. I don't care who gives me the permission.....from the CEO/owner to the lowest worker on the site. Once I get a yes (and a name) the onus is transferred to them should there be a question of why I'm there and what I am doing. I did my part, I asked. Not my fault if the person who gave me permission didn't have the authority. That isn't for me to decide.

 

[Icewing]

Or put another way, if we start down this path of logic, then so too would we have to conclude that by taking (ie.: stealing) coins from a park or a school yard are equally illegal. Because there is always laws on-the-books which forbid "harvest", "remove", "take", of any park feature. Obviously the rules are so that no one thinks he can start harvesting the sod for use in his own garden. Or taking home the park benches etc... But there is no technical reason why the same rules can't apply to individual fumble fingers coins. Yet ....... if you look around you, you see scores of posts of people who "take" (aka steal) coins from public places.

Why ? Because deep down inside, we all subconsciously know there is a difference because that item in the ground was un-known, lost, etc... Ie.: as if it DIDN'T "exist" till it was brought to the surface. Is that technically defensible ? No. But just sayin' that if you start down that path of definitions, is the day you can like-wise cease detecting all forms of public land as well.

With this portion of your statement I must disagree, in fact I've been over this with more than one jurisdiction just to be sure.

In public domains discarded and lost items are not considered "features". When it comes to public property such as city parks, the land is most often purchased with tax money, and features are improvements made with more tax money that can be shown on some type of inventory or purchase order. Anything "found" falls under any applicable finders/keepers laws.

Metal detecting on any National Farm and many state parks is a felony, but municipalities would have to pass an ordinance probibiting metal detecting for it to be criminal.

In other words, never ask a city for permission, only ask if there's any legal reason why you can't. That's why you pay sales tax on every purchase. Like a casino they get it all back.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Metal detecting on any National Farm and many state parks is a felony, but municipalities would have to pass an ordinance probibiting metal detecting for it to be criminal.

OK I'll bite. What the heck is a "National Farm"?

 

[Nitric]

That's a popular myth. Stock doesn't give you ownership in the company. Even if it did (it doesn't) it would still be theft to take the assets of the company for yourself.

You need to get written permission from the land owners. Not a worker, someone passing by or caretaker. Those who don't own a thing can't give you permission to take it. Taking things you find on private property you don't own or have permission to hunt is theft in every State. It doesn't matter whether crops are planted or if no one is looking. Taking things that are not yours is a crime. It's that simple.

Just ask. It's not that hard and surprisingly often you will get the permission you need to detect private property.

This is the right way to do it!


The above made me chuckle. When I first started detecting I asked permission from a guy mowing the yard at a historical site(Private). He said "Yes, and if anyone asks tell them _________ said it was ok!!!" A week later I was detecting and a man and woman walked up, the woman was not happy! I tell her so and so (forgot the name this was years ago) said It was ok! Ya! The name the guy on the mower gave me was the original owners name. He had been dead for over 100 years. They eventually got a laugh out of it when I told them the guy on the mower. But I wasn't allowed to hunt there anymore. It would had to be voted on or ok by all the owners.


As far as the thread question....The best way is to get permission.. Everyone makes their own judgement calls and will give different advice, permission is best! I've learned my lesson a couple of times detecting abandoned buildings. One place in WV I had a guy calling the police on me. I was lucky enough to calm him down and talk my way out of it. This was 20 years ago and the place is bulldozed now. It was in the middle of no where and we weren't hurting a thing. But were in the wrong, and the guy that watched the land happened to show up while we were there. I always get permission now. I've had very few "no's" over the years.

 

[Nitric]

Trespass laws here would put anyone without permission at risk of eventual fines..
Hunting game permissions have evolved into lands well watched for any unpermitted traffic.
Even ag lands can have hunting rights leased and doubly defended by owners and lessee's and now even game cameras that stream live.
Private land owner rights do get defended here when wildlife habitat is involved.

Anyway ,where an actual owner is not convenient I have acquired a permission from a caretaker.

A worker approached would be one option if I was just out scouting for sites and ask who's in charge or who is the boss.

Once who ever is in charge was located I would treat it like any hunting permission request as far as being respectful of tender crops ,where to park my vehicle ,leaving any gates the way I found them ,no littering , areas to avoid ( you'd be surprised) does some one need to be contacted when I am leaving? ( Most farmers/ farms want to know ,so not to wonder if you broke a leg or two. )

Yes! this too!

I don't call the cops for trespass as long as no one is trashing or destroying things, even hunting, doesn't really bother me... BUT, my neighbors take their land serious!!! And some will shoot! and at the least call the cops. Depending on the state, some places land is posted by law, and written permission is needed. Alabama is one of those states.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... In public domains discarded and lost items are not considered "features"....

Yes I've heard this line of reasoning. But it hasn't stopped certain appointed officials from citing the law as a way of saying "no". Or ... quite humorously ...... saying "yes, but you must turn in everything you find". Hmmmm Or how about if the item becomes a "cultural heritage" by reaching a certain age ? Then .... presto ........it's a "park feature" ? Hmmm

.... never ask a city for permission, only ask if there's any legal reason why you can't....

This way of phrasing has been suggested as a way to avoid arbitrary whimsical safe "no's". Instead of asking "can I detect?", you say "Is there any laws forbidding/addressing the use of detectors?". So that it puts the burden of proof on them to CITE such a law (eg.: "no metal detecting") if such a law existed. Right ?

Unfortunately this technique (while an improvement) has back-fired for many people. They STILL get odd-ball answers like "yes but you can't take anything". Or "no because you'll dig". Or even just an answer like "no you can't" (as if you'd just asked their princely permission). To which the md'r persists "where is that written??" And then it can lead into a p#ssing match on semantics. And one time even heard about a fellow who found a lady clerk who was forced to admit that metal detectors weren't mentioned in city code. But she, perceiving his implicitly worded question, went and spoke to her superiors about the inquiry (I guess she had images of geeks with shovels). So guess what appeared on the next city council meeting agenda as proposed rule ?

Hence .... if the purpose of the question is to deduce if there's a *specific* prohibition or not (ie.: an actual rule) then we can look up the rules just as easily as any desk clerk. No reason to have to talk to a live person.

 

[Icewing]

I've never been in a city hall where I didn't have to have a desk jockey look up a city ordinance, as for the rest of the clowns you mentioned I've dealt with them too. I however believe it's their duty to follow the law, and when one doesn't exist, you can't commit a crime. If they want to pass a law at the next council meeting fine, but at least then they can legally tell you no after they post a sign with the new rule that shows just how the council member treat their neighbors.

Just because you read about one podunk town like Pineville, Missouri that's run by folks who I think relocated from Picher, OK doesnt mean even the next town over will be the same. It's like watching the news and thinking every driver is looking for people in groups, or everyone with a detector is robbing graves.

And to the OP, I'm sorry we go off topic.

 

[Clay Diggins]

C-diggins, I notice that your angle of logic is not on the "trespassing" issue. And instead is on the "taking" (aka "stealing") aspect of pinching a coin off some corporation's ag. crop field. Very interesting.

Because technically, you're right : Taking that coin from the row crops is *technically* "stealing". But let me ask you a question: Although what you're saying is technically true, But do you see a difference in the following:

If you went over to that corporation head's house, went over to his night-stand, and "took" (ie.: "stole") a dime or gold ring off his nightstand. Versus a dime or gold ring in a field. Technically the answer is that both are identical. Even though the corp. owner MAY INDEED know he's now missing his gold ring or dime, versus the one in the field that had been there for 100 yrs, that he DIDN'T know was "missing" (in fact, he never even knew it was there). I don't know why, but for some reason, people tend to see a difference between something that is unknown, versus that-which-was-known. Even though technically, in the eyes of the law, there is no difference.

Or put another way, if we start down this path of logic, then so too would we have to conclude that by taking (ie.: stealing) coins from a park or a school yard are equally illegal. Because there is always laws on-the-books which forbid "harvest", "remove", "take", of any park feature. Obviously the rules are so that no one thinks he can start harvesting the sod for use in his own garden. Or taking home the park benches etc... But there is no technical reason why the same rules can't apply to individual fumble fingers coins. Yet ....... if you look around you, you see scores of posts of people who "take" (aka steal) coins from public places.

Why ? Because deep down inside, we all subconsciously know there is a difference because that item in the ground was un-known, lost, etc... Ie.: as if it DIDN'T "exist" till it was brought to the surface. Is that technically defensible ? No. But just sayin' that if you start down that path of definitions, is the day you can like-wise cease detecting all forms of public land as well.

So is your theory that if the dime comes from your victims pocket it is more of a crime than if it is in his kitchen and it's less of a crime if it's in his garage and hardly a crime at all if it's in his bushes?

Sounds like you are justifying the theft of someone's property based on the proximity of their property to where they are normally found.

So if I steal your car from your garage is it not like theft as much as if I steal your car from a parking lot? Or is it more? This is a new theory to me and it's a bit confusing to follow your "logic". Where should I steal your car so it would be less of a crime? If I steal a spare set of keys you didn't know you had does stealing your car somehow become not a crime?

I have heard similar theories about theft in courtrooms and Roma camps. The people in the courtroom were convicted based on their own testimony about the nature of degrees of theft. Stupid thieves often indict and convict themselves. Are you of the Romani?

To answer your question - theft of private property is theft no matter where the property was stolen from. I don't just believe that - I have the weight of the law and western culture behind that belief. My mother taught me not to take what wasn't mine but that if I asked nicely sometimes I might get permission to have what I wanted. There was some other stuff in there too about civilization and morals and stuff that would probably just bore you.

If you ever stopped dodging and weaving trying to compare apples to oranges to prove their are peaches you might find that getting permission is much more productive than making up stories why you don't need to ask permission. This discussion is about entering private property to metal detect in the hopes of finding a valuable object. Trying to make it about parks, public places or fumbled coins is a cheesy first year debating team fail. Trying to sell your dodge as "logic" is embarrassing. If you have a way around the laws about taking another persons things from their private property please offer that to the discussion.

psssst - your subconscious is *technically* showing.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

So is your theory that if the dime comes from your victims pocket it is more of a crime than if it is in his kitchen and it's less of a crime if it's in his garage and hardly a crime at all if it's in his bushes?

Sounds like you are justifying the theft of someone's property based on the proximity of their property to where they are normally found.....

Clay, technically everything you are saying is true. I can't deny that there is technically no difference between swiping a quarter off farmer Joe's night-stand by his bedside. Versus swiping (stealing) a quarter off of farmer Johns fallow row crops.

The same goes for nameless faceless corporate old-town demolition sites. If something old is dozed away to prepare for an incoming new k-mart, then as you know , old-town urban scrapes are a magnet for md'rs, right ? Yet *tehnically*, any quarter you find does indeed belong the president of Kmart (who probably lives in New York ? Los Angeles? who knows ?).

Yes, everything you're saying is technically true. But just trying to wonder if we all, deep down, don't know some sort of difference.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... If they want to pass a law at the next council meeting fine, ....

Sheesk, that's not "fine" by my book ! haha

Re.: the asking them "Is there any laws forbidding or that mention metal detectors?". You know full well that this puts the burden of proof on them to CITE any such law (if one existed). But this strikes me as odd: If their SOURCE of answering this question is to reference muni codes, park rules, etc... And then shrug their shoulders and admit that metal detectors "aren't mentioned", then ........ gee ....... why can't the md'r himself reference the muni-codes, park rules, etc... ? And answer that for himself ? Then you have no such risk of them switching the subject, or deciding to invent a rule, etc...