Need advice, Florida and Hillsborough

[graybar-hotel]

I have been reading alot and want to do this right and legal. I went and requested permits to MD locally in civic centers, county parks and such and my reply today, 1/2/8, was a set of Fla Satutes and municipal codes of Hillsborough County saying NO. I am perplexed. Hills County Code Art.II, Sec 27-34, states NO digging period. Fla State says absolutly NO.

Even with a Local Ranger giving the go ahead, are we violating and opening our selves up to a 50/50 chance of a very bad day?

Graybar-hotel

[graybar-hotel]

Another reply Em from the County Parks depatment.

It reads: Per Hillsborough County Ordinance No. 97-14 section 4C.......No person shall make any excavation by tool, equipment, blasting or other means

and

section 5A...Nor shall any person dig in or otherwise disturb grass areas.



we are soory for any misunderstanding that this may have caused and hope you will continue to enjoy all of the parks.



The Door on me closed.

Graybar-hotel

[George (MN)]

There's no need to worry about bureaucrats readings from books, as they don't have arresting powers. Just call the municipal police (if they have them) or the county sheriffs dept & ask if you could be fined for detecting in the area you are interested in. If they say no digging, ask if prying with a screwdriver is OK as long as you don't do damage. If they say you'll be fined for detecting grassy areas, ask if it's OK to detect beaches. HH, George (MN)

[Bigcypresshunter]

Myself, I wouldnt dig in a landscaped maintained grass area, even though I have seen video of members doing it. I can understand the landscaper's position. I only dig in dirt or weeds, void of any maintained grass, or I look for disturbed areas such as during construction or any trench digging.

[Tom_in_CA]

This whole discussion over probing vs digging vs scratching, etc.... is a dead-end. All you're doing is giving some desk-bound bureaucrat something else to say "no" to. What do you THINK they're easy answer is?

This sounds like someone going in and describing the dimensions of the basketball he is intending to use @ the hoops in the park, and entering into a detailed discussion about how he will try to hit the backboard, so the ball doesn't accidentally leave the court and bop a little kid on the head! I mean, c'mon. If there are no probhibitions on detecting, then just go do it. As long as you're leaving no trace (and using discretion on the time of day you hunt so as not to be a "sore thumb"), then I bet no one even cares (or notices). I hunt parks all the time, and have never entered into a discussion of how I will retrieve, with those cities. Sure, maybe every other year, some bored cop might take issue, but heck, even those persons that've gone to great lengths with this permission stuff, will also get busy-bodies bugging them. It comes with the territory. So, if assuring them you were going to leave no trace doesn't work, just move on. No harm done. The "harm done" will be when you throw up lots of red flags in some office somewhere, as if you or your hobby were somehow inherently evil and thus needed permission, sanction, etc.....

[lou423]

Tom, you are right.

[Hank]

As a retired peace officer, I would say [like Tom] don't ask questions which dummies and power players are inclined to answer with a "no".......whether or not they're justified. You only open Pandoras' Box.

Apart from my experience with the occasional overzealous cop/park ranger, etc. , I doubt whether anyone will do more than warn you, should you find yourself violating some county/city ordinance or state law.

Keep a low profile and don't make a mess. But don't muck around in National Parks, or State Historical sites.

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey Hank, coming from a cop no less, interesting

Reminds me of the story of 2 guys who arranged to meet at a movie theater for a particular movie. The one guy shows up at the slated time, only to find that the entire parking lot at the movie theater is filled up. Driving round and round the full lot, he spots his buddies car parked in the next door lot. So he goes there, to a hotel's parking lot, and sees plenty of parking spots. He is preparing to park next to his buddies car, when he sees a hotel employee walking through the lot. He rolls down his window and asks "can I park here for the movie theater?". The guy tells him "no". Then, pointing to his freinds car says "what about my friends car?". The hotel guy shrugs, winks, and says "I guess he didn't ask". He drives off, and eventually finds street parking 2 blocks away, and is quite late, misses the start of the movie, etc.. Afterwards, both men come out of the theater. His friend's car is nice and unbothered, while the first guy has to walk several blocks.

also reminds me of a friend I used to have in my college days. We were both under 21, the drinking age in CA. Yet my friend would routinely get into ANY bar in town, without problem. I assumed he must have fake ID or something, so I asked him "how do you do it?" He said that if you just walk right in like you own the place, you never get carded. It's only the people who sheepishly try to avoid scrutiny, or people who ask dumb questions, that get carded. If you look like you know what you're doing, no one looks twice at you"

[Hank]

Yup, Tom...."the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

People often create their problems thru overactive imaginations, and failure to use a bit of common sense.

Archaeologists have also contributed a goodly share of mischief to our hobby due to their arrogance and envy. They 're still smarting from guys like Heinrich Schliemann, [amateur discoverer of Troy] , which was considered a myth by most historians and archaeologists.

It's now even become perilous to dig in Spain, once a THer heaven for the Roman stuff. And, when you think that vast desolate places like Padre Island are off limits, not only is it ridiculous to the point of stupidity, but it is an unjustifiable restriction on our freedom.

Nighthawking may now have become a viable alternative. Only be careful, some sites have movement sensors. Damn! How I loathe authority figures. Strange, eh? I know how they think....that's why!

[coda]

Hank and Tom, Tom and Hank

Great thread. I have read the MDers code of ethics in the manufacturers manual an all that jazz, understand it perfectly, and have learned that anytime you ask anyone whether citizen or official, the answer is "NO." After learning this over my first 8 months in the hobby I have come to the conclusion that TH members who advise "always get permission" must live in a Utopian Society or have incredible charm, and must get on a presidential ticket immediately. I don't condone bandit, hunts but understand the gray area between "permission" and ignorance as a defense. Common sense, as you discussed is a great approach to the gray, but common sense is not common to all. Confidentially speaking I have to operate in the gray within Federal Installations (Not Parks or Historical Sites) but actually get permission prior to hunting, believe it or not. How? Some states stipulate that a search and excavation can be conducted if your intent is to pursue a personal lost item, and under the supervision of the approving official (usually the property official who doesn't have time to supervise you anyway). Federal Installations are the same way. "My wife lost her diamond wedding ring here three weeks ago," works very well and that's just a warm up. Everything is illegal since skateboarding became a crime, but there is a way around. If I actually waited to MD in the hopes of permission without understanding the gray, both my machines would be on eBay by now. Bottom Line... If you don't own the land, you can't hunt it, and you can count on it. Though, the application of common sense you discussed and my technique, gives all of us the "possible in." Who or what can deny our right to history, besides their desire to let it rot over time undiscovered?

"Let Freedom Swing"

coda