Detecting National Forest Lands

[Treasure_Hunter]

I'd like a response to this question, but rather in reference to Forest areas in Missouri and Florida


Bran <><

Florida National forests are off limits. I tried and was turned down when I wrote to them... I wanted to hunt the swimming areas of Ocala National forest...

 

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[augoldminer]

I hunt relics around old mining towns out here in calif.

I never ask permission on forest service land and if asked i am hunting for gold nuggets and meteorites.

Hunting for gold is protected under the 1872 mining law and i am a retired professional gold miner.
Since they took away dredging from us i don't care to let then keep up with there BS.

 

[jefe43]

I just shot an e-mail asking about this for the Olympic National Forrest and Park. I'll update when I get an answer in case anyone wants to know.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

I just shot an e-mail asking about this for the Olympic National Forrest and Park. I'll update when I get an answer in case anyone wants to know.

Jefe43, how did you phrase the question? Eg.: "can I metal detect?" (which is simply a form of asking their personal arbitrary whim of permission), vs "are there any rules regarding metal detectors?" (which at least ....... sort of ..... puts them in position to have to CITE a rule saying "no metal detecting", rather than a whimsical "no you can't, because we think you'll harm the earthworms, blah blah).

But actually, why not just look it up your self? Certainly park rules must be posted SOMEWHERE. Eg.: "dogs on leash only" "fires in pits only" "no off-road vehicles" etc.... If you saw nothing there that said "no metal detecting", (ie.: silent on the subject), why can't that be your answer? Because no matter HOW you phrase the question, it simply puts some deskbound bureaucrat in the position to say "no because I said so", or "no because we think you'll harm the cultural heritage", etc... And the sad part of that is, that some of those same desk-bound persons might never have noticed or cared less (but are just giving the "safe" answer.

Or why didn't you just print out the already-given answer in #2, 6 and 12, and just go?? Why argue with a "yes"? And ...... of course .... to be in compliance with those answers, well presto, you didn't find any coins over 50 yrs. old, right? I mean .... c'mon.

 

[homestead-hunter]

ARPA:
(a) Under section 6(a) of the Act, no person may excavate, remove,
damage, or otherwise alter or deface, or attempt to excavate, remove,
damage, or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resource located
on public lands or Indian lands unless such activity is pursuant to a
permit issued under Sec. 7.8 or exempted by Sec. 7.5(b) of this part.

(2) No permit shall be required under this part for any person
collecting for private purposes any rock, coin, bullet, or mineral which
is not an archaeological resource as defined in this part, provided that
such collecting does not result in disturbance of any archaeological
resource.

(4) The following material remains shall not be considered of
archaeological interest, and shall not be considered to be
archaeological resources for purposes of the Act and this part, unless
found in a direct physical relationship with archaeological resources as
defined in this section:
(i) Paleontological remains;
(ii) Coins, bullets, and unworked minerals and rocks.

(d) Public lands means:
(1) Lands which are owned and administered by the United States as
part of the national park system, the national wildlife refuge system,
or the national forest system (BLM lands)

So in other words: National Parks are public lands by this laws definition. This law only applies to "ARCHAEOLOGICAL RESOURCES" Coins and bullets minerals, rocks or anything less that 100yrs old ARE NOT archaeological resources (unless directly related to a nearby site) and are EXEMPT from this law and may be excavated.

They have to prove that the coin you dug up is a resource. They will need to prove how they can gain historical knowledge from a coin that someone dropped on the ground in a field or forest. Thats like trying to find historical significance from a coin someone dropped in the street.

 

[1more4me]

To add to what Homestead and Tom in CA provided;

I spoke with one of the top Rangers in the Southeast region about a year ago. We discussed the specifics related to a number of topics. In conversation, we spoke about detecting, fossil and mineral collecting, artifacts. BTW, as TOM in CA expresses- I did NOT Ask permission, simply had him confirm my conclusions below. He even said that yeah, sometimes truth gets lost in details as it gets passed from one agent or ranger to the next... Archies and Geologist give a lot of presentations and meetings where statements are made- that are completely erroneous or false- that support their own personal intents.

Can detect most NF lands. (N Forrest and N PARKS are NOT THE SAME! and some NF's DO have Restrictions- because people asked!)
Can detect Rec areas within NF's unless otherwise marked with signs.
Can NOT detect historical areas (Marked)!
Can pick up surface stuff, (with limitation on amounts of some items.)
Can NOT "dig" nowhere near a marked Indian site!
Can dig a small hole ---but fill it in and cover it up...
Age limits apply to different coins only if they are substantially related to a known historical event.

Be aware that there is NO law directly regulating "Metal Detecting"--- in attempts to stop you they will cite ARPA and AAA (Archeological Resource Protection Act and Antiquities Act)
Neither apply such that you cannot- but they do regulate where you can do it and what you can find and keep.

A lot of info here;
index

And--- Make note of this or print out paragraphs below - (the Doc is 830 pages+).

"2004 Laws affecting Forest Service Activities"
http://www.fs.fed.us/publications/laws/selected-laws.pdf

Page 116 starts Historic references. Also refers to page 128 of 828- ARPA and the 100 year rule second column near bottom. Also page 133 of 828 refers to Picking up arrowheads Sec 7 para 3. and Sec 6 para g."

Title 16 U.S.C. 433. American Antiquities. Legal definition is for manmade Stuff PRIOR to 1700 and Biological or zoological prior to the year 1300.

Now- even though a Ranger is "supposed to" enforce the laws above,- they will make mistakes- and you DO NOT have the right to get belligerent or they can very well make your day go from bad to worse... Right or wrong- you'll be stuck with burden of proof and a few court appointments!

Do your own due diligence for your specific spot- but try to avoid Asking the lowest ranger on the totem pole- he won't know...

PEACE

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

homestead hunter and 1-more-for-me, Great posts. Thanx for chiming in.

homestead-hunter, some people have misinterpretted the "coins" part of ARPA, to think that "coins are exempted". But you're right, it's not "all" coins that are exempted, but rather ..... non-archaeologically significant coins. And the interpretation of that has become either 50 or 100 yr. old. Thus theoretically, you can hunt federal sites that fell under ARPA, as long as you don't find any archaeological (over 50 or 100 yr. or whatever) coins. And I have to tell you: In my 35 yrs. of this, I have NEVER had anyone come up with a calculator, and go through my apron, deducing coin-ages. And seriously, for pete's sake, if you did find a 1959 memorial, and were really worried, you can simply put that in your sock I suppose. I don't find old coins, do you??

And even though all the above may be true, I still do no parade my hunting in front of archies or rangers anyhow (don't want to get into a debate of semantics, etc...). Like homestead hunter says, best not to be beligerant, lest you merely bring up subjects for scrutiny, etc....

 

[G.A.P.metal]

So many darn laws it hard to say what your breaking.. so the people that cane do anything are probably not going to know all the laws either or enforce then to many Gray areas in there.but in Fed./ST. areas you better mind, or they will pinch you .In most cases over the last 43 years i just let sleeping dog lie....never had any trouble here in the Southern Tier of N.Y.......most police around here just wave at you with a smile ...if i hunt along the street i ware a green vest, white hard hat and.... act like I should be there....in the parks if it dosen`t state no MDing never seen it around here i go in... Heck that how i use the park....i don`t harm the park any more of the kids on bikes running into me ...or the guy lettin his dog crap in the park....some times i find spent shell casings/Hypo needles.... on the top of the ground....i sure that is not allowed here but its far worse than we do digging a little hole.
Gary

 

[Kingsnake]

Yea . . .Whenever I see the metal detector ads on TV they never show the smiling game warden/park ranger/Deputy Fife smiling because he just issued a ticket to a recreational detector dude and confiscated his equipment....

 

[milehigh]

I have always been given the go ahead here in Colorado..........the Rangers do say that anything over 50 years old should not be taken though. A simple phone call and they are friendly.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I have always been given the go ahead here in Colorado..........the Rangers do say that anything over 50 years old should not be taken though. A simple phone call and they are friendly.

Yup, a ranger at a national forest once told me the same thing. He saw me hunting, and initially drove up in his truck to say "you can't do that". But after some casual conversation, changed his tune to "well, if you find anything over 50 yrs. old, you have to turn it in to the ranger station". Well gee, ....... then I guess it's up to your math skills? Heck, I think we ALL probably got coins in our pockets, from regular circulation, that are 50 yrs. old. Doh!

Oh, and perhaps even though that's the answer you've gotten so far, I bet that it depends on who you ask, how they couch your question, their mood, etc... Ie.: another ranger, on another day, might say "no", or .... whatever.

 

[scurvy_seadog]

I just shot an e-mail asking about this for the Olympic National Forrest and Park. I'll update when I get an answer in case anyone wants to know.

I sure would like to know. But as one who grew up there and lived on the wet side of the Olympics. over the past 15 years I have yet to see any Forrest ranger in that forrest. Maybe up around cushman or Quillicein or Forks But for the most part I don't see hid nor hair of any forrest service employee. very rare to see them.

 

[RvPrepper]

So the question I have after reading all this is it really worth it? I am have been planning to buy a Garrett 350 this year but the more I read about the laws, fines, jail and all that I am getting nervous about detecting.


RvPrepper

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Rv-prepper, a person might think that after reading all such scary threads....... but get this: detecting goes on all the time in the USA (yes.... even on public land) and no one "gets arrested" "pays fines" or "goes to jail". Hmmm, why is that .... given all the scary stories and laws you're reading about ?

 

[RvPrepper]

Right here in Legal Issues, I do no better than to enter RR property.

RvPrepper

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-hunting-legal-issues/242194-i-m-pissed.html

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...asure-hunting-becoming-banned-all-states.html

"Detecting is a little like nose-picking: Not illegal, but ....sometimes.... uh .... you just have to be a little discreet". I love picking my nose so I can breathe.

RvPrepper

 

[homestead-hunter]

To add to what Homestead and Tom in CA provided;

I spoke with one of the top Rangers in the Southeast region about a year ago. We discussed the specifics related to a number of topics. In conversation, we spoke about detecting, fossil and mineral collecting, artifacts. BTW, as TOM in CA expresses- I did NOT Ask permission, simply had him confirm my conclusions below. He even said that yeah, sometimes truth gets lost in details as it gets passed from one agent or ranger to the next... Archies and Geologist give a lot of presentations and meetings where statements are made- that are completely erroneous or false- that support their own personal intents.

Can detect most NF lands. (N Forrest and N PARKS are NOT THE SAME! and some NF's DO have Restrictions- because people asked!)
Can detect Rec areas within NF's unless otherwise marked with signs.
Can NOT detect historical areas (Marked)!
Can pick up surface stuff, (with limitation on amounts of some items.)
Can NOT "dig" nowhere near a marked Indian site!
Can dig a small hole ---but fill it in and cover it up...
Age limits apply to different coins only if they are substantially related to a known historical event.

Be aware that there is NO law directly regulating "Metal Detecting"--- in attempts to stop you they will cite ARPA and AAA (Archeological Resource Protection Act and Antiquities Act)
Neither apply such that you cannot- but they do regulate where you can do it and what you can find and keep.

A lot of info here;
index

And--- Make note of this or print out paragraphs below - (the Doc is 830 pages+).

"2004 Laws affecting Forest Service Activities"
http://www.fs.fed.us/publications/laws/selected-laws.pdf

Page 116 starts Historic references. Also refers to page 128 of 828- ARPA and the 100 year rule second column near bottom. Also page 133 of 828 refers to Picking up arrowheads Sec 7 para 3. and Sec 6 para g."

Title 16 U.S.C. 433. American Antiquities. Legal definition is for manmade Stuff PRIOR to 1700 and Biological or zoological prior to the year 1300.

Now- even though a Ranger is "supposed to" enforce the laws above,- they will make mistakes- and you DO NOT have the right to get belligerent or they can very well make your day go from bad to worse... Right or wrong- you'll be stuck with burden of proof and a few court appointments!

Do your own due diligence for your specific spot- but try to avoid Asking the lowest ranger on the totem pole- he won't know...

PEACE

If they are going to enforce the laws they better know them!! Taking someone in and filing charges against them can alter someones life. Besides its their job to know these laws.

 

[homestead-hunter]

Yeah the law is a little vague, but if I were in front of a judge it would be thrown out...I guarantee. The law is the law, as it is written. The following is the ARPA definitions portion. It DOES NOT consider coins an archaeological resource regardless of age!!! It simply says they are not a resource and are EXEMPT (unless, of course its in DIRECT PHYSICAL relationship to a known archaeological site)..it doesnt say anywhere that its exempt as a resource unless it is 50-100 years old, it just says it is exempt, maybe because the coins belong to the federal government??

Sec. 7.3 Definitions.
As used for purposes of this part:
(a) Archaeological resource means any material remains of human life
or activities which are at least 100 years of age, and which are of
archaeological interest.
(1) Of archaeological interest means capable of providing scientific
or humanistic understandings of past human behavior, cultural
adaptation, and related topics through the application of scientific or
scholarly techniques such as controlled observation, contextual
measurement, controlled collection, analysis, interpretation and
explanation.
(2) Material remains means physical evidence of human habitation,
occupation, use, or activity, including the site, location, or context
in which such evidence is situated.
(3) The followiing classes of material remains (and illustrative
examples), if they are at least 100 years of age, are of archaeological
interest and shall be considered archaeological resources unless
determined otherwise pursuant to paragraph (a)(4) or (a)(5) of this
section:
(i) Surface or subsurface structures, shelters, facilities, or
features (including, but not limited to, domestic structures, storage
structures, cooking structures, ceremonial structures, artificial
mounds, earthworks, fortifications, canals, reservoirs, horticultural/
agricultural gardens or fields, bedrock mortars or grinding surfaces,
rock alignments, cairns, trails, borrow pits, cooking pits, refuse pits,
burial pits or graves, hearths, kilns, post molds, wall trenches,
middens);
(ii) Surface or subsurface artifact concentrations or scatters;
(iii) Whole or fragmentary tools, implements, containers, weapons
and weapon projectiles, clothing, and ornaments (including, but not
limited to, pottery and other ceramics, cordage, basketry and other
weaving, bottles and other glassware, bone, ivory, shell, metal, wood,
hide, feathers, pigments, and flaked, ground, or pecked stone);
(iv) By-products, waste products, or debris resulting from
manufacture or use of human-made or natural materials;
(v) Organic waste (including, but not limited to, vegetal and animal
remains, coprolites);
(vi) Human remains (including, but not limited to, bone, teeth,
mummified flesh, burials, cremations);
(vii) Rock carvings, rock paintings, intaglios and other works of
artistic or symbolic representation;
(viii) Rockshelters and caves or portions thereof containing any of
the above material remains;
(ix) All portions of shipwrecks (including, but not limited to,
armaments, apparel, tackle, cargo);
(x) Any portion or piece of any of the foregoing.
(4) The following material remains shall not be considered of
archaeological interest, and shall not be considered to be
archaeological resources for purposes of the Act and this part, unless
found in a direct physical relationship with archaeological resources as
defined in this section:
(i) Paleontological remains;
(ii) Coins, bullets, and unworked minerals and rocks.
(5) The Federal land manager may determine that certain material
remains, in specified areas under the Federal land manager's
jurisdiction, and under specified circumstances, are not or are no
longer of archaeological interest and are not to be considered
archaeological resources under this part. Any determination made
pursuant to this subparagraph shall be documented. Such determination
shall in no way affect the Federal land manager's obligations under
other applicable laws or regulations.
(6) For the disposition following lawful removal or excavations of
Native American human remains and ``cultural items'', as defined by the
Native

 

[homestead-hunter]

Florida National forests are off limits. I tried and was turned down when I wrote to them... I wanted to hunt the swimming areas of Ocala National forest...

How does the state of Florida dictate laws on National forest land? Thats federal jurisdiction which falls under ARPA laws. Please enlighten me.



As far as the coins being 50-100yrs old, which you cant take....

(3) The following classes of material remains (and illustrative
examples), if they are at least 100 years of age, are of archaeological
interest and shall be considered archaeological resources unless
determined otherwise pursuant to paragraph (a)(4) or (a)(5) of this
section:

Section (a)(4) (4) The following material remains shall not be considered of
archaeological interest, and shall not be considered to be
archaeological resources for purposes of the Act and this part, unless
found in a direct physical relationship with archaeological resources as
defined in this section:
(i) Paleontological remains;
(ii) Coins, bullets, and unworked minerals and rocks.


So again, the 50-100 year old range argument of coins that cant be taken is invalid unless it is IN DIRECT PHYSICAL RELATIONSHIP With an archaeological site. All I know is that if they try to take me to court they better have a damn good case and be able to PROVE and articulate why this coin someone dropped 50yrs ago has significance, because they will get destroyed intellectually. Its written in the ARPA plain and simple the more I read it over and over. So unless the coin was dug directly out of known site (which is a no no) you are GOOD!!

 

[scurvy_seadog]

well I been playing with my new to me used by some one else 505 up in a old logging camp that I helped tear down in 1987. all the homes the shops are gone just trees planted in its place. it is on US Forrest service land. low and behold I run in to a forrest ranger at the gate when I was leaving with two rail road spikes and a bunch of trash. and my 505 in my hand. know what he asked me? So how was your hunt? told him what I found and showed him the bag of trash I packed out. want to know what he then said? keep it up and have fun. I did not ask if I could MD in the National forrest i just went about like I normally do when i hike or hunt in there. Never had to get a permit to hunt with a rifle never needed a permit to hike. So I figure don't need a permit to hike with my metal detector. and I am not going to ask mother or big brother may I. it is common sense. I am not harming the woods I am picking up trash and doing good.

 

[scurvy_seadog]

Just a follow up to my post the only place one has to have a permit to MD in the Olympic National Forrest is the John Turrnow site. The wild man of the Wynoochee. It is a historical archaeological sight. So there you have it and if you want to know were it is it is on the head waters of Shaffer creek or Turrnow ponds. Archaeologists were there last year locating his last sight were he had a shoot out with the sherriff of then Chehalis county now Grays harbor county. it is quite interesting story. So there you go.