Lost Dutchman Mine

[djui5]

No offense meant cptbild, but I believe you may be mistaken.

Yeah, there are still Indians back there to this day. I think Paul can bear witness to that personally

 

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[cptbild]

Since I have plans to be The Superstition Mnts
How about giving me a "Heads Up" on where these "Hostiles" can be expected to show up ?
My general locations will be:
1...Fish Creek Mnt
2...Iron Mnt*
3...Boulder and La Barge Canyons area

* Where I found a large, 10' or so, black boulder with " NE & ORO " carved on the top...
Not far from a covered over tunnel... is this a connection?

 

[Cubfan64]

Since I have plans to be The Superstition Mnts
How about giving me a "Heads Up" on where these "Hostiles" can be expected to show up ?
My general locations will be:
1...Fish Creek Mnt
2...Iron Mnt*
3...Boulder and La Barge Canyons area

* Where I found a large, 10' or so, black boulder with " NE & ORO " carved on the top...
Not far from a covered over tunnel... is this a connection?

I can't comment on the locations you mentioned or any potential connections, but as far as a "heads up" on any "hostiles" in the area, I don't recall any reference to "hostiles" anywhere - just that there are still indeed local native americans who can be found in the Supers.

Of course there's always the rumors of the "Black Legion" running rampant in the mountains and the fairly extensive number of unsolved deaths out there over the years, but those are just children's fairytales

 

[cptbild]

CubFan64
Actually, I meant that to be directed to
Djui5
As he lives just a few miles down the road from the Superstitions
He'd have the latest news on any hostiles

 

[cptbild]

CubFan64
Oh!
You Mention, "Local native Americans who can still be found in those mnts"
Now!
I have bac pac'd ..with friends, into and have camped in, way back in, there, for days at a time
I have been in way,way! back, and in the north, south, east & west parts
I HAVE NEVER SEEN even ONE! Native American
NOR!
Have I ever seen ......
Any sign of them or their encampments
What is your source of info?
That I might check ....
Before "Doc"& "I" go back in there!

 

[djui5]

* Where I found a large, 10' or so, black boulder with " NE & ORO " carved on the top...
Not far from a covered over tunnel... is this a connection?

No Is the rock still there? Did you move it? This is very interesting.

About the Indians, I never said they were hostile. You'll probably never see one so I wouldn't worry about it. I was just making a point that there are a select few Indians who still spend a lot of time in the Supers from what I understand.

 

[Cubfan64]

I can only echo what djui said here...

About the Indians, I never said they were hostile. You'll probably never see one so I wouldn't worry about it. I was just making a point that there are a select few Indians who still spend a lot of time in the Supers from what I understand.

I have no direct sources you can check with before you head back in there. The native americans djui and I saw were not far from the trailhead and we watched and listened for 15-30 minutes as they played a drum and chanted in a canjon as the sun was setting - to be honest it was a pretty neat experience.

The other stories I hear have come from people I respect and would consider to be very reliable. As Randy said, I doubt you would see any as you're out exploring anyways - unless of course you go somewhere they would prefer you not go.

One word of advice, if you come across anything out there with an air of native american ceremony to it, it's probably best to just look and leave it the way it was when you arrived.

Your stone on Iron Mountain piqued my interest as much as djui's - I'll be out there for a couple weeks this coming fall - as I get closer to the date, I'll touch base with you and maybe I'll have an opportunity to shake your hand and join you for a day of exploring or something.

Best wishes,

 

[dustcap]

I'll be out there for a couple weeks this coming fall - as I get closer to the date, I'll touch base with you and maybe I'll have an opportunity to shake your hand and join you for a day of exploring or something.

Paul,

Send out a pigeon or two before you visit the Supers this fall. I will be out there myself about that time. Just waiting for the temp to drop below 100 on a daily basis (as is a whole lot of people, I imagine).

That little sundown pow-wow was something and would be great to find someone to tell us exactly what it was they were doing. I had forgotten about it until you just mentioned it here. I have a friend who works on the reservation just northwest of the mountain in the "operations" office. I'll see if I can find out anything through that connection.

-"dustcap" Ken C.

 

[WhiteCountyPaleo]

I would think if you found the mine...The best thing to do is find the best hiding spot for all that gold farthest away and out of reach of local thugs from that time. Maybe downhill or something. Good luck. I'll give you a clue. Make a huge Metal detector at the bottom of a hot air balloon....Wait! That might just work!

 

[Cubfan64]

I would think if you found the mine...The best thing to do is find the best hiding spot for all that gold farthest away and out of reach of local thugs from that time. Maybe downhill or something. Good luck. I'll give you a clue. Make a huge Metal detector at the bottom of a hot air balloon....Wait! That might just work!

Funny you should mention that - it's off topic a bit, but I do alot of beach hunting and I've wondered if there would ever be a way to develop a metal detector that fits on the bottom of your shoes

As far as finding the gold and finding a way to move it out of reach - perhaps that's already been done?

 

[AZ-Mtnman]

Here's something to think about. A friend of mine that is a third generation treasure hunter here in AZ is the most knowledgeable person I know on any subject to do with lost mines, caches, or treasure in the state, so I'll take his word on it. His dad and grandfather are the ones you hear about that found the Spanish armor in Sycamore Canyon (before it was a Wilderness Area).
One thing that is always ignored about Waltz is that he was fired from the Johnson three times for high-grading. Don't ask me how he kept from being shot. The last time it happened, there were three wagon loads of ore that came up missing and the the drivers were never heard from again. Also, no sign of the wagons or teams was ever found. He was never caught with any of the ore, so I'd say that's what saved his butt more than anything. Everyone that knows anything about gold will recall that all gold is not the same. The gold from the Johnson isn't like the gold in the Supers, or Gold Basin, or anywhere else, for that matter. A test was done on some of the gold Waltz sold and it came out to match the Johnson, exactly.
Another thing to think about is the Peralta Stones, which is attributed to Waltz. He was German, not Spanish, so why use their "language" on them, if he made them? I've never heard of him being a stone mason or sculptor, so it's hard to believe he could pull it off. If you think it's easy to make that sort of thing, grab a piece of granite, a hammer, and a chisel and give it shot. There is no doubt that the Spanish were in the state and did leave engravings around, so why are these paticular ones ignored as being from them?
Now I'm not an expert on Waltz, never claimed to be. I'm just amazed at how people (not talking about anyone in paticular here) can take part of a tale and turn it around to suit their purposes. So, if it trips your trigger to go after something like this, more power to you. Good luck.

 

[boogeyman]

I would think if you found the mine...The best thing to do is find the best hiding spot for all that gold farthest away and out of reach of local thugs from that time. Maybe downhill or something. Good luck. I'll give you a clue. Make a huge Metal detector at the bottom of a hot air balloon....Wait! That might just work!

Funny you should mention that - it's off topic a bit, but I do alot of beach hunting and I've wondered if there would ever be a way to develop a metal detector that fits on the bottom of your shoes

As far as finding the gold and finding a way to move it out of reach - perhaps that's already been done?

They tried to! Wizard "Walk & Seek"

 

[LadyD]

I cannot wait for the cool weather some questions please

I am a senior citizen but in good health and have wracked up hundreds (if not thousands) of miles hiking around the California mountains...bit out of shape but working on that now...don't want any ben gay nights if I can help it.

1. What will be the situation with poison oak up there ?

2. I have read where treasure hunting is allowed but panning for gold is questionable, is panning in the Superstitions ok or not?

3. Which is the best trail for an old greenhorn to the supers to begin with?

Thanks, Deedy

 

[AZ-Mtnman]

Lady D, The Supers is a wilderness area, so there is no treasure hunting or prospecting allowed. Well, I guess you could treasure HUNT, but not keep. Don't have to worry about poison oak, that stuff needs water, so you're safe. I'd suggest one of the trail heads on the north or east side to begin with, and only in the winter.

Randy

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Re: Lost Dutchman Mine...

See the THE LOST DUTCHMAN'S MINE "thread" on the TREASURE LEGENDS "board" on THIS web-site; great stuff!

 

[Cubfan64]

Here's something to think about. A friend of mine that is a third generation treasure hunter here in AZ is the most knowledgeable person I know on any subject to do with lost mines, caches, or treasure in the state, so I'll take his word on it. His dad and grandfather are the ones you hear about that found the Spanish armor in Sycamore Canyon (before it was a Wilderness Area).
One thing that is always ignored about Waltz is that he was fired from the Johnson three times for high-grading. Don't ask me how he kept from being shot. The last time it happened, there were three wagon loads of ore that came up missing and the the drivers were never heard from again. Also, no sign of the wagons or teams was ever found. He was never caught with any of the ore, so I'd say that's what saved his butt more than anything. Everyone that knows anything about gold will recall that all gold is not the same. The gold from the Johnson isn't like the gold in the Supers, or Gold Basin, or anywhere else, for that matter. A test was done on some of the gold Waltz sold and it came out to match the Johnson, exactly.
Another thing to think about is the Peralta Stones, which is attributed to Waltz. He was German, not Spanish, so why use their "language" on them, if he made them? I've never heard of him being a stone mason or sculptor, so it's hard to believe he could pull it off. If you think it's easy to make that sort of thing, grab a piece of granite, a hammer, and a chisel and give it shot. There is no doubt that the Spanish were in the state and did leave engravings around, so why are these paticular ones ignored as being from them?
Now I'm not an expert on Waltz, never claimed to be. I'm just amazed at how people (not talking about anyone in paticular here) can take part of a tale and turn it around to suit their purposes. So, if it trips your trigger to go after something like this, more power to you. Good luck.

AZ-Mtnman,

Interesting stories - I've seen a great deal of documented evidence regarding Waltz, his possible mine, his possible gold, etc... and I don't recall ever coming across what you posted above. Can you provide sources and documentation to support the two statements you made above that I highlighted in red? The part of about the Johnson gold matching some of the gold Waltz sold is especially interesting and there should certainly be an analytical document to support the comparison.

I understand you taking the word of a friend or someone you respect and trust, but if the statements you posted above are not supported by any physical evidence, you surely could see how those people who have spent decades studying, documenting and researching Waltz and his mine would question such claims no?

If you do have or can get documented evidence of your statements, I can point you to a historian and researcher who would be very interested in seeing it.

As far as Waltz and the Peralta Stones, I've had the opportunity to speak to and learn from an excellent group of LDM hunters and I don't recall a single one ever expressing a belief that Waltz carved and hid those stones - in fact, I don't think I've ever read that theory anywhere. The theories I've seen mostly revolve around Spanish, Mexican or someone trying to pull a hoax.

 

[djui5]

One thing that is always ignored about Waltz is that he was fired from the Johnson three times for high-grading. Don't ask me how he kept from being shot. The last time it happened, there were three wagon loads of ore that came up missing and the the drivers were never heard from again. Also, no sign of the wagons or teams was ever found. He was never caught with any of the ore, so I'd say that's what saved his butt more than anything. Everyone that knows anything about gold will recall that all gold is not the same. The gold from the Johnson isn't like the gold in the Supers, or Gold Basin, or anywhere else, for that matter. A test was done on some of the gold Waltz sold and it came out to match the Johnson, exactly.

Hi Randy, nice name
Can you tell me where these stories originated from, especially the one about the ore being tested? I'd like to see that report myself as personally I don't believe it exists. He was fired from the Vulture because they suspected him of high grading ore, but no proof was ever found. Also the Vulture ore is NOTHING like the ore that came from under his bed.

 

[djui5]

Well I found some info on this Johnson mine. Seems the first date I can find for it was 1899. Little past Waltz's period

http://tin.er.usgs.gov/mrds/show.php?labno=10234654

 

[Cubfan64]

That's pretty much what I found too djui. The date doesn't mean alot though as that seems to just be some documented report date and not necessarily anything to do with mine operations or anything.

It's an interesting story, but unless there are documents to prove anything, it's just another story to add to the gazillion other ones out there at this point.

Gotta head to REI soon and start picking up some things for my trip this fall - I'm already getting antsy to go!

 

[Cubfan64]

I would think if you found the mine...The best thing to do is find the best hiding spot for all that gold farthest away and out of reach of local thugs from that time. Maybe downhill or something. Good luck. I'll give you a clue. Make a huge Metal detector at the bottom of a hot air balloon....Wait! That might just work!

Funny you should mention that - it's off topic a bit, but I do alot of beach hunting and I've wondered if there would ever be a way to develop a metal detector that fits on the bottom of your shoes

As far as finding the gold and finding a way to move it out of reach - perhaps that's already been done?

They tried to! Wizard "Walk & Seek"

Hehe, well considering I've never seen anyone wearing them on any of the beaches, I can assume it was a flop Oh well