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  1. #1
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    Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure........... and the Susquehanna River

    "A straggling Indian, who was passing up the Susquehanna, had told of buried treasure. Joseph, hearing of this, hunted up the Indian, and induced him to reveal the place where it was buried. The Indian told him that a point, a certain number of paces due north from the highest point of Turkey Hill, on the opposite side of the Susquehanna River, was the place. Joseph now looked about for some man of means to engage in the enterprise. He induced a well-to-do farmer by the name of Harper, of Harpersville, N. Y., to go in with him".

    More Info Here

    http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1873Susq.htm
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  2. #2
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    Greetings Jeff,
    Dang, I didn't realize it but I have been to this very spot! (Should have read this post sooner!) I don't know how much treasure might remain there, but it would not surprise me one bit for more to remain than what Smith claims he removed. (His golden plates, the basis of the Mormon religion.)

    I don't wish to attack the Mormon religion, and we have been helped personally by a Mormon church; that being said I have my own theory on just what Smith un-earthed from that bank of the Susquehanna river.

    Smith said he dug up several gold plates, which were inscribed with what he termed "modified Egyptian" writing, which he worked to translate, and in part inspiration, he came up with a translation. However, there is reason to believe that what he actually found was not something left by a lost tribe of Israel at all, but something quite different! I believe they may have been gold plates left there by men from ancient Carthage!

    Around 510 BC, the ancient city and empire of Carthage sent out two large expeditions to explore in the Atlantic ocean and found colonies. The two expeditions were commanded by two brothers named Hanno and Himilco. Himilco was to explore to the north, including the European coast and British Isles. Hanno was to explore south, along the coast of Africa. According to ancient sources including Diodorus Siculus, Aristotle and others, a part of Hanno's expedition was blown across the Atlantic to a mystery land that the Greeks and Romans were only dimly aware of, but the Carthaginians called Asqa Samal, (Great North) and these same Carthaginians went to great lengths to protect their secret land from which they obtained much gold, timber, fish and gemstones as well as most probably the tobacco and coca products which later were discovered in Egyptian mummies. Aristotle was of the opinion that this secret land was the source of the wealth of Carthage. Anyway, by coincidence, stone monuments inscribed in Punic (the language of Carthage) have been discovered in several places in America, and often read "This Land Claimed By Hanno, Do Not Deface". Stone grave markers inscribed in Punic have been discovered along the Susquehanna river near Harrisburg, and quite a large number too - more than eighty. A metal urn of Carthaginian manufacture was unearthed at the junction of the Chenango and Susquehanna rivers by an archaeological dig, though this is in NY state, it is again along that same river. Carthaginian coins have been found in eleven US states, including Pennsylvania! Is this all coincidence? Even the name of the river, Susquehanna, includes a reference to that famous Punic admiral Hanno! Punic names are found all over America but especially in PA and New England. The finds of Celtic Ogam inscriptions in New England are also a hint of Punic visitors, since Carthage was rather closely allied with the Celts and frequently hired them as mercenaries. (Just compare their religious beliefs to see how close they were allied, the Celtic god Bel equates to Punic Baal, the Celt goddess Tinnith equates to the Punic goddess Tanit, and so on - one study done on the Gaelic language, the language of the Celts, came to the conclusion that it was nothing more than the old Punic, and that the two tongues had a common mother.) Now you may well ask, what if anything does this have to do with the gold plates found by Smith?

    Well it is a known fact that the only METAL scrolls ever left buried by ancient Hebrews were made of thin sheets of copper or more rarely, silver. None have ever been found made of gold. However, one ancient power had a habit of recording important events on plates of gold - namely Carthage! We know this because several of their treaties with the Etruscans and Romans (prior to becoming enemies, believe it or not Rome and Carthage were close allies! They even fought together against the Greek invader Pyrrhus!) It would NOT be unusual whatsoever for a Carthaginian admiral, exploring up the Susquehanna river and making friends with local tribes (remember that the Carthaginians were first and foremost businessmen - they sought out new markets and products as a matter of course) to record an important treaty with his new friends and trading partners on plates of gold, which would then have been buried near a monument (now lost, perhaps due to floods or simply sunk into the ground) for posterity. In my opinion, this is what Smith unearthed, as Punic writing is quite strange looking, he may well have mis-identified this strange writing as something of a cross between Egyptian demotic and Hebrew, which it was not. My suspicions are even more reinforced by what Smith did with the plates, or his followers - he got a number of witnesses (all of whom could most likely could not have identified Punic writing) to sign a statement as to what he found, then has it locked away where no one can ever see it. It is today locked in a vault by the Mormon church. I would not wish to incur the fury of the LDS by requesting to see the gold plates found by Smith, but if it were ever offered I would jump at the chance - I can read Punic and could tell in an instant if the plates are what I suspect them to be!

    Now this idea of Punic explorers traveling up the Susquehanna river is roundly dismissed by historians who insist that the New World never had ANY contact with the Old World since the Ice Age, despite such obvious similarities as pyramids and so many more evidences of some level of contact taking place (like chickens, cotton, sweet potatoes, maize, linguistic evidence, etc) but to anyone with common sense it is quite logical. Hanno's expedition traveling down the Atlantic coast of Africa, would definitely encounter the currents at the Canary Islands (which were definitely visited by Punic explorers) which will carry a ship right across the Atlantic. It has even happened repeatedly in more modern times, including the Portuguese explorer Pedro Cabral who accidentally found Brazil due to storms while he was sailing down the Atlantic coast of Africa following the exact course of Hanno, or the French captain (name escapes me) who had the same accident but failed to go ashore or would have discovered Brazil before Cabral! Keep in mind that the Carthaginians were the finest seafarers and explorers in the world in their day.

    Other skeptics point to the huge boulders near the mouth of the Susquehanna river that blocked entrance very far by the first European explorers; well two points are in order here. First, it is possible that there would have been an un-blocked channel 2500 years ago, past which Carthaginian sailing ships could proceed; once past the boulders, the river is fairly navigable for quite some distance - there were no dams on the river then! Second, Carthaginian sailing ships would absolutely be equipped with smaller boats, which were shallow draft and capable of being rowed by oarsmen, in order to land at various places, as an emergency lifeboat, and for exploring and trading up rivers! So the boulders near the mouth of the Susquehanna would not necessarily have been any major hindrance to Punic explorers and traders.

    What would this possibly mean to a treasure hunter? Well for one thing, you stand a chance of finding some VERY ancient coins and relics along the Susquehanna river! There could even be a vast treasure almost un-imaginable in size hidden there somewhere, for when Carthage was finally destroyed by the Romans, they found that the Punic treasury had been emptied! Carthaginian ships had been able to get in and out of the city while it was under seige by the Romans up until Scipio built the mole which closed the port, so they may well have spirited the mass of silver and gold coins to their own private secret land, America! How much treasure could this be? Well the neighboring state of Numidia had several THOUSAND talents of silver when they were conquered by the Romans, and Carthage was the richest city in the world before they were destroyed! A talent of silver weighed close to a hundred pounds, a talent of gold was nearly double that!

    A side note is in order here. A Carthaginian man who lived during the time of emperor Nero had a dream in which he was shown the vast, lost treasure of Punic gold was hidden in a cave; he contacted the infamous emperor and got him to back his efforts (financially and manpower) to dig up this vast treasure, which he supposed was somewhere on his farm (outside of Carthage). Despite huge expenditures and Nero having a special ship built to haul all that gold to Rome, nothing was found, and Nero came close to bankrupting the Roman empire! However, what if his dream was true in part, that the treasure was hidden in a cave? Are there any caves along the Susquehanna river, in the secret land of Carthage? You bet! What would an ancient Carthaginian gold coin be worth today? They sell on Ebay for several thousand dollars for ONE!

    If the Carthaginians were coming to America to trade for furs, timber etc and prospect for gold and gemstones, how is it possible that contact was lost? One very good reason, Rome utterly destroyed Carthage, burning it to the ground and even (according to some sources) going so far as to salt the earth. Any records of their voyages would almost certainly have been lost, and the men who knew the route and what they could obtain would have been killed or enslaved.

    Now you are free to disagree with my theory here, and I apologize if I offended anyone; after all I have never laid eyes on the gold plates of Joseph Smith so probably shouldn't be casting doubt on what they may say. However it is my opinion these were more likely Carthaginian plates, recording treaties with local tribes or laying a legal claim to the lands along the river. For that matter, the name Susquehanna in Punic would mean (pretty closely) "land given by grace" (of the gods, implied). Another coincidence?

    I should also admit that I am a writer and have been working on a book on ancient explorers coming to America, for close to seven years now. I contributed an article to an anthology edited by Preston Peet covering this idea of Carthaginians in America, which is on the market now. Anyway Jeff, if you get a chance to go do some THing along the Susquehanna, you may find some really ancient coins or relics!
    Oroblanco

    "We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca, Carthaginian general and shophet
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    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  3. #3
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    WOW !
    alot to take in here.
    and let me say You Definately came across as an Excellent Writer Oroblanco.
    I'll need to read this several times.
    I just got up & am in a Race to get through Posts here,
    as I have a Appointment to go on a Hunt this Morning.

    First before I forget, You say you were on the spot.
    Is this Private or Public land ?

    And I Live about 30 mile from the Susquehanna, in the center of the state. just North of Harrisburg.

    I'll make a more Coherent post later (or at least try to) this evening

    Thanks again !
    What you Wrote about is Definately something I would Love to try and Prove.
    Especially since the Majority, probably Disbelieve.


    Jeff

    P.S.
    Is this anywhere near Spanish Hill ?

  4. #4

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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    Very interesting and plausible but I will say what I'm sure others are going to after... let's see the proof. :P I would love to see this proved... I mean them being in the Americas. The idea of gigantic amounts of gold being buried seems far fetched or is it? Even a small cache would be a monumental discovery. It would seem to me that the key here would be the plates originally found... we need to see them!
    One thing that seems strange (In spite of a very strong oral tradition amongst the Native population) is the idea that an Indian would be aware of buried treasure from that long ago. At any rate, I look forward to the discussion that is sure to follow!
    "A culture truly grows great when old men plant trees in who's shade they know they will never sit"

  5. #5
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    Although I never completly Discount anything.

    I think the Most likely Finds would be Drops,
    Leave Behinds, and maby Markers.

  6. #6
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    Dang, had a fair post to put in here to try to explain some of the evidence and lost it! - I promise I will post it here tonight when I have time. In the meantime, thank you very kindly Jeff for the kind words! I owe you one!
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  7. #7
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    Greetings Jeff, Cannonman17 and everyone,
    Thanks again for the kind words Jeff, really made my day. I must add that I enjoy your posts too!
    I would suggest that if you were going to hunt the Susquehanna, I would look for the natural fords,
    where a visiting boat might have to put ashore and perhaps do some trading. The coins and relics are
    apt to be deep, but the way river erosion and soil deposition is erratic they may be shallow too.

    I can't say that Carthage hid their treasury in the Susquehanna basin, but it IS possible - the Romans
    went so far as to send out expeditions into the Sahara desert and even a squadron of ships out to the
    Punic colonies along the Atlantic coast of Africa (under the command of the Greek historian Polybius, no less)
    and they failed to find it. What better place could they have chosen to hide their treasure from the
    Roman enemy but in a land that only they knew about?

    Most of the Carthaginian coins found have been singles, though in one case in Alabama, two were found
    in the same area along a river. Most of the finds have been along rivers and beaches, though there have been
    several finds of caches too that were a ways from a navigable river or stream, such as the stash of Punic gold
    coins found in a cave in eastern Tennessee, or several stashes found in Georgia. To try to cover at least
    some of the evidence or proof that Carthaginians and their Phoenician fore-fathers were visiting the Americas,
    I must ask your patience and forebearance, as this will make for a very lengthy post!

    Now as to what proof is there to support this idea? I have already referred to the coins - though modern historians dismiss them as ALL having been dropped in MODERN times, as if lots of people walked around with relatively rare and valuable coins of ancient Carthage in their pockets. If they were referring to Roman bronze
    coins, I could agree - they can be bought very cheaply in the un-cleaned state for $1 each or even less,
    and are even frequently given to schoolchildren as learning aids or as a keepsake. However we are talking
    about coins that are NOT common and certainly not cheap - some of the silver tetradrachms of Carthage found
    are sold in the $1500 each range, with the gold coins we are talking thousands of dollars. Gloria Farley
    includes a chapter on the coincidence of the coins, it includes several of the Punic coins and some Romans as
    well, from her book In Plain Sight, Old World Records in Ancient America, it is online at:
    http://phoenicia.org/brazil.html

    Then we have the ancient writers. We have almost nothing from the Carthaginians themselves, as the Romans were very thorough in their destruction of their rival, so most of the evidence must come from sources which were in truth enemies of Carthage and had very imperfect understandings of the discoveries made by them. Even so, check out Aristotle's work On Marvelous Things Heard, describes how the Carthaginians discovered what can only be America by accident, and even attempted to found a colony there but later withdrew it by order of the Carthaginian senate; he explained that the senate felt that too many people would move there due to the excellence of the place, and it would be best kept as a safe haven that their people could flee to if some calamity should overtake their homeland; in the event such a disaster DID overtake the city when the Romans destroyed it, but they were unable to escape as the Romans under Scipio had closed off their port entrance with a mole. Don't expect to find this text of Aristotle online though, it is one of those that will not "fit" with the accepted theories!

    Then there is the Sicilian Greek historian Diodorus Siculus; his massive work titled Library of History has a much
    greater description of the secret land of the Carthaginians and explains how they found it by accident when some
    merchant ships sailing down the Atlantic coast of Africa were blown across the ocean to the west. Most of the
    description is found in books 2 and 3, which are NOt online anywhere, again this will not fit with the accepted Isolationist theory. And yes, the Isolation idea is still a theory.

    Plato includes a remarkable passage in his work Timaeus, which the Atlantis-hunters so frequently overlook it is
    amazing - here it is"Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. "
    Note that Plato describes a vast continent on the other side of the Atlantic, and that this is a true continent - and is exactly what the Americas would seem to be to a ship exploring the coast! The Atlantis-hunters mis-read this to interpret that Atlantis was a continent, which is not what Plato said, he said that was a group of islands, but no matter - Plato has just proven that the ancient WERE aware of the Americas! In fact, the name they called it was "Ogygia".

    Plutarch describes the northern route to the Americas used by the Carthaginians too, the same route taken by the Norse many centuries later; it is found in his book Moralia XII, On The Face Of The Moon, and describes the finding of an ancient scroll in the ruins (then) of Carthage including sailing directions to America. Plutarch mentions that some "greeks" had intermarried there and settled there, but the Greeks tended to call anyone they considered civilized as "greek" and thus claim some honors; anyway he also states that a native of this faraway land even sailed across to now-ruined Carthage and remained there a long time, perhaps mourning the loss of their good trading allies.

    There are a number of other ancient sources including the fragments of the periplus of Himilco, which states that it takes four months to cross the Atlantic ocean by the northern route - but does not say what is on the other side; however cross to what else BUT America? Aelian has a surprising description of America in his Natural History too, which is clearly somewhat garbled but includes a description of what might well be the Grand Canyon!

    With all these ancient sources, I ought to include the mysterious "map on a coin" discovered by professor Mark McMenamin;
    he took a great deal of flak over announcing his discovery that on some ancient Punic gold coins, there is what appears to be a map showing parts of the Americas as well as Europe and Africa on the reverse under the famous "horse of Carthage". Ancient coin experts dismiss this as the result of brockage or debris on the dies used to strike the coins, and point to other coins which have blobs on them to prove this - however these other blobs look like blobs, while the map looks very much like a map. It is online and you can judge for yourself at:
    http://phoenicia.org/america.html
    This site also has an article of my own on this theory (not the map) at:
    http://phoenicia.org/carthanewworld.html

    The point has been raised in objection to the map on a coin that if the Carthaginians knew of the Americas and were keeping it a secret, why would they depict it on a map on their coins? The answer seems obvious, that the coin makers put the map on the coins and when this was discovered, they were ordered to remove it, and to support this, the maps only appear on a short series of coins and is never repeated afterward.


    Then there are the inscriptions left behind. At the site known as Mystery Hill in New Hampshire, not far from Boston Mass, when excavated they discovered an inscription in Punic, dedicating the site to their god Baal. Also in the same area outside Boston, one of the stone steles claiming the lands for Carthage in the name of admiral Hanno was found. Off shore on Block Island is yet another Punic inscription, which states the site is a loading area for their ships! Other stone steles claiming the lands in the name of Hanno have been found in the eastern areas of the Americas including one found near Hawley PA (I made some efforts to locate this stone, but it has apparently been removed.) and even in such far-flung places as Nevada we find a Punic inscription on the shore of a now-dry lake, giving sailing directions! There is also the Pontotoc stone, found in Iowa, which also has Punic religious prayers, the finds of arrowheads in the mid-west with Punic or Phoenician letters on them, and on the other side of the 'big pond' a wooden table was discovered in an ancient Phoenician tomb in what is today Lebanon, which was constructed of the super-hard Brazilian wood known locally as "Pau" or "axe-breaker"! We have already touched on the strange finding of American tobacco (even aa actual tobacco leaf found in the wrappings) of Egyptian mummies, and that they had used American coca in their lifetimes - which is more likely, that Egyptians, who rarely ever sailed beyond the Nile, or the Punic and Phoenicians sailors who were known (and this much admitted even by the skeptical historians) to be bringing ebony and ivory from south Africa, cloves from the Moluccas in extreme SE Asia, cinnamon and other spices from faraway China and India as well as tin and amber from the British Isles and Baltic? There are also the strange stone near Los Lunas, New Mexico which some people believe to be an ancient inscription of the Ten commandments, but can also be read (and better fit, I might add) in Phoenician and describes their visit to this faraway land; a number of stone inscriptions found in Brazil are worthy of note too, you can read about them online at:
    http://phoenicia.org/brazil.html
    One stone, the Paraiba stone, describes how a Phoenician ship in the time of king Hiram (friend and ally of wise king Solomon) became lost in a storm and ended up stranded in what is today Brazil! This fits pretty closely with what Aristotle and Diodorus said is how the Phoenicians and their offspring the Carthaginians discovered America too!

    A side note is in order here - it seems that the Punic name for what is today called Brazil was "Bar-Zil" which means "land of iron" - it is remarkably close to the name Brazil! By comparison, their name for Britain was Bar-itanni, which meant "land of tin" for they traded for the important tin there, required for the production of bronze. Speaking of place-names, there is even a US state with a Punic name! Alaska, which is said in the native tongue to mean "the great land" is remarkably close to the Punic Al-Asqa, which means very much the same thing! Another coincidence?

    Then there are the products which "somehow" end up on both sides of the oceans - like cotton for instance. Cotton
    originated in the Old World, and yes there is an American type of cotton which is genetically different from Old
    World cotton, but we find that Old World cotton was being cultivated by Aztecs, Mayans and Incas when first discovered by Europeans. In fact, on Columbus's very first voyage, on his very first encounter with natives of the Americas, he reports that he was offered spools of cotton as a trade item! How did Americans get Old World cotton before Columbus? Birds?

    We have the in-explicable presence of Asiatic chickens found over vast areas of both North and South America when first visited by Europeans. Gavin Menzies claims these are proof of the single visit of Chinese in the year 1421, yet is this logical, that chickens would have spread across the length and breadth of two continents in the span of just 71 years before Columbus arrived? (I am currently reading his book 1421, and have many, many bones to pick with Gavin on his theories.) Well according to historians, chickens were introduced to the west by Alexander the Great when he returned from India, around 322 BC. However then how do we explain the Punic coins struck in one of their cities in Sicily around 480 BC, which clearly depict what can ONLY be a chicken, specifically a rooster? It seems that the Carthaginians were in fact introducing chickens a couple of centuries before Alexander brought some back from India, and dating to a time period very close to that of admiral Hanno! We know that the Carthaginians even had their own special trading marts in India, which is where chickens originated so...it is not a great leap of logic to come to the conclusion that they brought chickens as useful fowl to trade in their new-found markets.

    Then there is the case of the "missing" copper in the upper Great Lakes region. There were many ancient mines active in the region and the amount of copper "missing" (un-accountable in the Americas) amounts to BILLIONS of pounds! Conversely, we have the ancient civilizations found around the Mediterranean basin, which used up billions of pounds of bronze (which is some 98 percent copper more or less) yet there are not enough known sources in their "world" to account for it! Is this another "coincidence"? Is it coincidental that when the first Europeans arrived in the Americas, they found that the natives valued copper over gold; consider what a Carthaginian merchant might do to trade with a primitive people, in order to get "worthless" gold from them in return for "valuable" copper! And the Carthaginians were nothing if not shrewd merchants.

    I could go on here with this list of commodities that "somehow" made it across the oceans in ancient times, which
    coincidentally happen to be the same periods when Carthage and the Phoenicians were at their most powerful zenith. Here are a few you can research on your own:

    • Bananas, which are difficult to propogate and cannot survive being transported through cold regions.
    • Hemp, a MAJOR item of trade with Carthaginians and Phoenicians as well, found in use by many American cultures
    • Sweet potatoes, an American plant, found being cultivated in West Africa, coincidentally the same areas ruled by Carthage
    • Maize, found growing in the Philippines
    • Corn, the American type, found in ancient India and west Africa, again areas known to have been frequented by Punic merchants
    • Peanuts, an American plant, found in an ancient Chinese tomb, coincidentally an area where spices were traded in ancient times
    • Bottle gourds, another American plant, found in west Africa, again in the same regions where Carthage ruled

    There are more including several types of peppers, but you begin to see the tracks! We have not touched on the
    strange coincidence of building pyramids in the Americas. Hmm, the "experts" say this is all coincidence, and
    point to the fact that we can show how the Egyptians developed pyramids, beginning with a stone bench known as "moustaba" then stacking them to form a stepped pyramid, finally the true pyramid - well then why is it NOT
    possible to show the same progression anywhere in the Americas, they just start building them? Again, we know
    that most American pyramids are of the truncated (flat-topped) and step-sided type, well is it another coincidence that we find Carthaginian pyramids in Sardinia and the Canary Islands are truncated and stepped? In fact a truncated pyramid is a part of the symbol of the most important goddess of the Carthaginians, Tanit!

    Then there are the "coincidental" practices found in the Americas too like the horrific practice of child and human
    sacrifice, found common among Amerindian cultures including Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas, well the Phoenicians and Carthaginians were also infamous for human sacrifice. The wearing of an earring was the mark of a slave among Carthaginians, this was also true among many tribes in the eastern Americas - another coincidence? Many Amerindian tribes used a form of communication known as "smoke signals" to communicate over long distances - this was a Carthaginian practice as well! Another coincidence? Just how many "coincidences" are we supposed to swallow? Many Amerindian tribes would cook and eat their dogs when times were hard - well should we then be surprised to learn that the Carthaginians did the exact same thing?

    Indian seer tradition holds that in ancient times, great ships with white sails would come from Britain, Spain and
    North Africa to trade in America which they called Turtle Island, obtaining gold here; they had a rule however that
    none of the visitors were allowed to remain on the "island" over a winter, the penalty being death! This is
    the exact same penalty described by Aristotle for anyone who went to the secret land of Carthage to live, after
    the official colony was withdrawn! Spain was ruled by Carthage, and there were Punic colonies in Britain and Ireland for many centuries too! Another "coincidence"?

    Does this mean that there were huge fleets of Carthaginian ships traversing the oceans on a daily basis? No, there WAS some level of contact taking place, but it was sporadic and always on a small scale - though Aristotle felt that Carthage owed her wealth to her secret land, the number of ships visiting was probably not even one per year. I have been attacked by skeptics who say that if I claim Carthaginians were visiting America, then it is like saying there were Roman legions marching around in Illinois and the Carthaginians had a secret Moon base! Well there is some evidence that one or more Roman ships may have accidentally reached America, as the mysterious wreck off the beach near Beverly Mass has been disgorging Roman coins onto the shore for many years now. However the presence of Carthaginian ship wrecks is not well known - these include what can only be a Punic ship in the Bay of Jars, Brazil, another found "deeply embedded in sand" in Mexico in the 19th century (this one a warship), another described as "Roman" on the coast of Texas but more likely Punic, one found off the coast of Honduras relatively recently which had some amphorae and anchors recovered which are now in a museum there, and a Phoenician shipwreck which is older (around 1100 BC) found off the coast of Bimini Island by divers looking at the so-called "Bimini Road" and seeking Atlantis. This last wreck was examined by Yale professor J. Manson Valentine and was mentioned on TV in the old series with Leonard Nimoy as host, In Search Of, some years back.

    So how much "proof" do we need? We actually have more proof that Carthaginians and Phoenicians were visiting America than we have of many known and accepted explorers,including Columbus! We are only scratching the surface here, I could bore you to death with many more pages of evidence but I fear I may have already tried your patience over-much. I apologize for such a lengthy post here but wanted to at least try to cover some of the interesting points - believe it or not there are many more! If you care to read more on this type of theory, I would suggest America BC and Saga America by the late Dr. Barry Fell (he has been widely attacked for his errors in translating many inscriptions, for instance using an Arabic dictionary to try to read Punic, when he would have been better served to use a Hebrew dictionary which is a much more closely related language) the book mentioned above by Gloria Farley which includes many illustrations of inscriptions she discovered in the midwest, (In Plain Sight, Old World Records in Ancient America) and if you like far-out theories the book Underground, the Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations &c edited by Preston Peet, my own contribution to this work is titled The Secret Land and covers much of what I have already said here but also includes articles by famous authors including Erik von Daniken, Andrew Collins, Robert Shoch, Graham Hancock and many
    more. The book I have been working on for close to seven years now is nearing completion and I would be happy to let you know when it is released, it includes chapters not only on Carthaginian visitors but also Hebrews, Egyptians, Celts, Norse, Welsh, Irish, Scots and Chinese in ancient times. America truly is a "melting pot" and source of refuge, and apparently ALWAYS has been!

    Thank you for your time, shouldn't have gotten me started on this as I always get carried away! I hope you guys have a great day, you certainly made mine.
    your friend,
    Oroblanco - Roy A. Decker

    "I have seen, in my lifetime, many an old fool; but this one tops them all!" --Hannibal Barca
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  8. #8
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    PS - almost forgot, the spot is relatively easy to find Jeff, as you drive along the river road (it is paved)
    from Susquehanna (on the north bank of the river) there is even a historical marker on the very spot where
    Smith dug up his gold plates. That spot where the historical marker is ON might be public land, but I believe the spot where he dug is all private land. I never took the opportunity to try my luck detecting there, but would bet that the landowners will grant you permission - most of the folks around there are pretty nice people.

    Heck if you live north of Harrisburg, you are probably better off searching the river area right close to home! For
    in fact that is where some eighty plus stone grave markers were discovered, inscribed in Punic and Iberian punic. They either had some kind of settlement along the river there, or had a number of deaths perhaps due to
    a battle or some epidemic.

    If you should be lucky enough to find some Punic coins or relics (spearheads, arrowheads, jewelry etc) I would
    sure appreciate it if you would send me some photos - I am always looking for more photos for the book and
    would gladly credit the photos to you. I also collect Punic coins and if you care to sell any, let me know? I
    don't often have the money to buy them, but the bronze coins are generally not too expensive - the silver and
    gold are just too much money for me. Thanks again,
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  9. #9
    Charter Member
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    Thanks Roy

    and again Very intresting post.

    there are Several places along the Susquehanna, where
    Indian Traders are known to have set up as recent as the early 1700's From Harrisburg to Sunbury* (*then known as Shamokin)
    These places Most certainly would have been used for many years before, I'm sure.
    In Upper Paxton Twp. I read of a Stone Age Cemetery on a Farm.
    these people were buried with Large stones place on top of the graves,
    supposedly to deter animals. There were Digs done there, but little was mentioned on it, other then the were stone age.
    I have also read of supposed Finds of Coin caches of Ancient
    coins with unknown markings in PA & NY in the past.
    I think in Treasure Location Books & Magazines.

    Who Knows, Maby with a little Patience, & research, I can get lucky.

    I'll let you know if I do.

    Thanks Again !
    Jeff

  10. #10
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,341
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    DAMN! Oro Blanco, you "are" good, extremely impressive. If I manage to open one of theTayopa depositories I will buy you some Gold and silver Carthagenian coins, providing you send me an autographed copy of your book, which I will purchase naturally.

    Taypa required far less data to find.

    Tropical Tramp
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  11. #11
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    Hello again,
    Gosh you are going to make me blush! Thanks good buddy Jose, you know sometimes a kind word goes a long ways. I don’t believe for a moment though, that I have put more work into this book project than you put in to find Tayopa – I’ve seen that country and even without having to pore through ancient Spanish and Mexican archives, just hiking IN is a terrific test of your mettle! I do hope (and honestly believe that you will succeed) in getting Tayopa up and running again, and soon too! I will send you a copy of the book too, gratis.

    A real writer ought to have a habit of going over his own writing to correct his mistakes, and I see that I missed a number of them above (like “could probably could” and the wrong link for that excerpt from Gloria Farley’s book) so will try to make up for the errors here.

    Here is the correct link to that excerpt on the finding of ancient coins in America:
    http://www2.privatei.com/~bartjean/chap11.htm

    More on ancient coins found in America:
    http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/coins/coins.htm

    The mysterious Los Lunas Dekalogue:
    http://www.culdee.org/colorado/decalogue.html

    Far out there, for those of that ilk, Aliens using Phoenician language?:
    (excerpt)
    “But why would extraterrestrials speak and write like Phoenician, Hebrew or Egyptian? Maybe because it's the language of the gods, who introduced it on Earth.”
    From http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/roswell.html
    (That one will fit with those secret Moon bases heh hehe)

    You know too Jose’ you might just turn up some of those coins in your own neighborhood! I am not aware of any that have been found in your area (yet) but there is reason to think they very well could be – for there are pyramids, ruins etc of ancient cultures which very well may have had contact. One such place is Tullum, which in the Mayan language means “walled” city, but the original name (before the arrival of the Spaniards) was Zama, which means the “city of the sunrise”. Hmm, is it another coincidence that the famous Carthaginian general Hannibal Barca was finally defeated by the Romans in a terrific battle near the Punic city of Zama, not far from Carthage? Can you guess what the name Zama means in Punic? Here are a couple of sites with decent photos:
    http://members.aol.com/awcalzada/tulum.html
    http://www.locogringo.com/past_spotlights/aug2002.html


    Now for more clues – in Mayan Zama in Yucatan, there stands one of the most enigmatic ruins in all of the Americas, a grand –lighthouse-!!! Now you don’t build a great lighthouse, unless it is to help ships out on the sea traveling at night. Who would be sailing around far out to sea, in the dark, off of Yucatan so many centuries before Columbus? Were they just a bit too early in expecting tourists? Don’t forget that a Carthaginian warship (a trireme or quadrireme) was dug out of the sands on the shores of Mexico too. The names of places tend to last even long beyond the people who named them in the first place, which helps explain the many Punic, Phoenician and Celtic names we find in America, but some even more striking are found in Mexico – for instance, have you ever heard of the famous ancient city, so beautiful with its floating gardens, Xochimilco? This name contains the FULL name of the –other- Carthaginian admiral sent out to explore in the Atlantic, Himilco. Even the fact that Xochimilco is pronounced with a hard “CH” sound is perfectly in tune with the way a Punic speaker would pronounce a hard “H” as in the first letter of Himilco. I should add here that the Carthaginians were also renowned agriculturalists in their time, Mago, (thought by some to be the same as the brother of Hannibal by that name) wrote a series of books on agriculture which the Romans felt were so important that they ordered them translated. I only mention this because there are other clues that Punic and Phoenician visitors left behind – some experts say that where ever you find the practice of terracing, so useful for farming in steep mountain areas, the Phoenicians had been there; the Greeks used to say that wherever you found date palm trees, that was a Punic calling card, and the palm was so important to Carthaginians that they are frequently depicted on their coins. It was also a play on words, as the Greek word for palm tree “Phoinix” was so close to their word for Punic “Phoinike” that the Carthaginians seem to have incorporated it into the coins they struck for paying Greek mercenary soldiers and the practice stuck. Another calling card of the Carthaginians is the Pomegranate, which they introduced about everywhere they traveled, and today is the most widely recognized fruit in the world – well the very name “Pomegranate” is Latin for “Punic Apple”! Anyway you never know where you will find their “tracks” if you pause to look.

    I have to admit too that I underestimated how long I have been working on this, in truth it is over eight years. You know people talk about becoming obsessed with something, well this book started out to be an idea for an article, when I heard about several fellows who had found Carthaginian coins in Georgia and Alabama. Dang if more and more evidence kept turning up, seemingly every day if one cared to look! For a brief time I even was conceited enough to think that I was the first to come up with the theory - NOT – even Captain John Smith, of Pocahontas fame, wrote “Ye Spanyards say that Hanno, a prince of Carthage was the first to discover this land, and Columbus the next.” (from A General Description of Virginia) and early Spanish explorers were convinced that Peru was none other than the famous Ophir of the bible. (there is a fair case for this too, but would really bore you to death.) This danged book project has sure kept me from contributing too many articles to the magazines I love; especially the last few years, but I have decided I will do my best to “keep a hand in” and will have a couple of MSS to send in to them soon.

    I don’t know why so many historians cannot make the connection, though they will admit that the Carthaginians and Phoenicians (as well as Greeks, Egyptians and even Romans) were sending out ships on missions of exploration into the Atlantic and Indian oceans, were calling at all the “known” ports in the world, bringing the goods that helped to make life better from China, SE Asia, India and Africa yet will not concede that they made it across the Atlantic. So many of their claims have been roundly proven wrong it is pathetic – like the old saw that the ancients “always had to sail close in to shore” – which any mariner can tell you is the very WORST place to sail because it is full of rocks, reefs and dangerous currents there! The recent finds by Robert Ballard and others of ancient shipwrecks (and including Phoenician and Punic) far out in the open seas proves they were traveling there. The safest, surest and fastest routes were across the open seas, and the magnetic compass can be replaced by the very ancient Sun compass, which Phoenicians called the Gnomon. At night they were able to navigate by the stars, in fact the North Star, the most important star in the Northern hemisphere for mariners, was called the "Punic star" by the Greeks and Romans. There is good evidence they knew of the Southern Cross in the southern hemisphere too. They may well have had the magnetic compass as well! In the Phoenician history of Sanchoniathon, he tells of “mysterious stones” that “moved as if possessing life” and were of assistance in navigation – they were kept in a special “house”, which I will not name here as it is one of my best little secrets in the book.

    Good luck and good hunting to you Jeff, that area has a LOT of history and you are sure to make some great finds, whether they are ancient or only a couple hundred years old.

    Oh well guess I better get off my soapbox here, thanks again for the kind words and I hope you have a great day!
    Your friend,
    Roy – Oroblanco

    “From the moment I picked your book up until I laid it down I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend reading it”. –Groucho Marx



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  12. #12

    Jul 2006
    Wisconsin
    1,555
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    Good reading and too many viable arguments to discount. Keep in mind this is coming from a "traditionally" trained anthropologist. I've often wondered about how many other "contacts" the new world had in pre-history or early history. I've always argued against the idea that any of them settled here because of the lack of evidence for it but as for visiting/trading/exploring.....hmmm. I think that the most compelling evidence there is would be the tobacco and cocoa found in Egypt. Even traditional archaeologist can't argue with the findings nor can they explain them. Some of the "evidence" such as pyramid building could be discounted because it is all together quite possible to have the same type of technology develop in different areas around the same time period. To argue the individual points like this would be fruitless at this point though- it's the big picture we need to look at. I think that eventually some of things you point out could be/ will be dismissed as having had been of aboriginal origination but some of the other points on the other hand I think will only become more concrete. I applaud your depth of dedication and research regardless of the outcome. I fear that you face a steep uphill battle to convice the pros though.. perhaps the newer generation of anthropologist/historians/archaeologists and whoever else will have a more open mind.. as new sites and finds are made, and as the evidence mounts, they will have no choice but to consider it. I was also thinking that your proposed contact period coincides with some interesting things from the archaeological record of N. America, first and foremost of which would be the "invention" of the bow and arrow. Perhaps it was brought here and not invented after all...just another point to ponder. Also, this may be the same time period that many of the burial mounds were constructed- that by itself may be nothing but consider this: many of the mounds from roughly this time period or a little after have hundreds of individuals buried in them, in some cases almost as if there had been a mass die off. If the time frame fit (and I am going completely off the top of my head here without reference) the mass burials could be the result of a new disease being introduced? It's widely accepted by even traditional archaeologists that the native population had been higher than it was at the time of contact with Columbus. I think that you may well be able to gain some more acceptance of your ideas if what you're saying tied in with some of the traditional thinking, explaining some of the unknowns. As for the linguistical evidence..I don't think it supports the idea of Western contact but I wouldn't expect it to either. I wouldn't expect to find Western linguistical features in the native languages unless there had been a sustained settlement. All the languages of the new world can be traced to three distinct branches, not sure about the spelling on these but: Algonquin, siouxian, and inuit. This suggests that there may have been three distinct groups and possibly times of migration to the new world but all of the three branches appear to be of Asian origin. Anyways.... I very much look forward to hearing more of what you have to say and/or reading the book. I sure hope to see some solid evidence found here in N. America in my lifetime- besides the coins that is
    "A culture truly grows great when old men plant trees in who's shade they know they will never sit"

  13. #13
    us
    Dec 2004
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    wow jeff good reading :P
    All animals are equal, but some are more equal then others. -George Orwell

  14. #14
    Charter Member
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    Quote Originally Posted by dekalb33
    wow jeff good reading :P
    Yes, I'm Glad Oroblanco Posted.

    This Post sat since May, with no responses.

    I'm finding this Very Intresting.

    Not to mention it made me Re-think some of the find posts,
    and "what is it" posts lately of Possable Greek Coins.

    I always Dismissed them as Kids drops of Collected coins,
    But, I'll look at them Different from now on

  15. #15
    us
    Dec 2004
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    Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

    ditto
    i agree
    im rethinking my thought process and maybe even thinking about much older stuff
    making barbers and seated coins look like zinc pennies (age wise)
    All animals are equal, but some are more equal then others. -George Orwell

 

 
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