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  1. #166
    us
    Apr 2011
    Philipsburg, PA
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    Actually, after doing some more homework, I realize there was a road through the Quehanna area at that time. The Caledonia Pike was built in the 1830s, and ran through there. If they made it down to the Sinnamehoning, they would have hit a road that ran along the valley. If they turned east, it would have taken them down to Driftwood and the town of Sinnemahoning. From there, there was a road that ran up into the Quehanna area (Old Sinnemahoning Road) and hit the Caledonia Pike just west of Karthaus, very close to the area we're talking about.

    If they didn't want to raft down the creek, this route would have led to Bellefonte, and from there the Old Erie Pike (current 322) would take them all the way to Harrisburg.

    Roads I'm talking about are in yellow on the attached map (1859 map).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #167
    us
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    Apr 2007
    Clearfield Pa. and Nova Scotia, Canada
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    OK if 9 bars of gold worth over $9 million was found who got it . Its not in the papers or news. Did someone split it up and we will never know the truth. Well Gov. Corbett ask for DCNR Sec. Richard J. Allan to quit today and he did I wonder if this has something to do with this story.

  3. #168
    us
    Apr 2011
    Philipsburg, PA
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    This shows the road from Sinnemahoning that went south into the Quehanna area. On current maps of the Quehanna area it's called the Old Sinnamahoning Road. On this map, which is dated 1870, it was called the Karthaus Road. It's just east of current Wykoff Run Road.

    Overlaying this on a current topo, it appears to have come in just above the Quehanna Boot Camp (Piper, PA), then down off the plateau following a route roughly the same as the current "Quehanna Highway".
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #169
    us
    Karl

    Jun 2011
    Quakertown PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by schieftain View Post
    Actually, after doing some more homework, I realize there was a road through the Quehanna area at that time. The Caledonia Pike was built in the 1830s, and ran through there. If they made it down to the Sinnamehoning, they would have hit a road that ran along the valley. If they turned east, it would have taken them down to Driftwood and the town of Sinnemahoning. From there, there was a road that ran up into the Quehanna area (Old Sinnemahoning Road) and hit the Caledonia Pike just west of Karthaus, very close to the area we're talking about.

    If they didn't want to raft down the creek, this route would have led to Bellefonte, and from there the Old Erie Pike (current 322) would take them all the way to Harrisburg.

    Roads I'm talking about are in yellow on the attached map (1859 map).

    So then Schieftain this is great information to know, but what are you alluding to? The detail or the Lt. had previously thought they had gone far enough North before they got to Ridgeway ? So then why didn't he take this 'Yellow' Route, which was there at the time, giving them what seems to me to be better traveling and options, rather than proceed East to St Mary's and over some very rugged Mountains and terrain after that?

  5. #170
    us
    Apr 2011
    Philipsburg, PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by kudo623 View Post
    So then Schieftain this is great information to know, but what are you alluding to? The detail or the Lt. had previously thought they had gone far enough North before they got to Ridgeway ? So then why didn't he take this 'Yellow' Route, which was there at the time, giving them what seems to me to be better traveling and options, rather than proceed East to St Mary's and over some very rugged Mountains and terrain after that?
    Wasn't alluding to anything in particular. Just thinking out loud.

    Why didn't they take the Caledonia Pike south from Ridgway? Good question. In one account, there was a man in Saint Mary's specifically mentioned in Castleton's orders as being a loyal, Union contact they could meet up with. Only his last name is given– Richardson. The patrol had been attacked at night while camped outside of Ridgway, so the Lt. may have chosen to continue on to meet Richardson for help. Supposedly they had some injured men, and the tires on the wagons needed to be re-set. Also, the Lt. was in dire need of quinine. St. Mary's was a larger town (for that area), and only about 12 miles from Ridgway, so probably seemed like a better place to get the supplies and help they needed.

    After they got lost/ambushed/whatever though... if some of them made it down to the Sinnemahoning, there were these other roads that would take eventually them to Bellefonte. I'm not saying they did that, just that it would be a possibility.

  6. #171
    us
    Karl

    Jun 2011
    Quakertown PA
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    Schieftain: Good stuff. Along the lines of the 'split' of Gold you mentioned half a bar found. Mathematically, there must be an even number of split bars to make a whole bar--that's obvious, but twenty-six bars cannot be evenly divided between any amount of men with half a bar--in other words the bars per man 26/x must equal (y+0.5) where x is the total men and y is an integer or whole number. So the closest split is if you have ten men each will get 2.5 bars with one bar leftover, or 17 men getting 1.5 bars with 1/2 bar leftover? How many purported bushwhackers were needed to overtake the Army detail? 11, 12 or 13 men is not an option because each would get 2 bars a piece. 14 men means 5 bars left over, 15 men is 3.5 bars left over--not an option for half a bar split either.
    Last edited by kudo623; Jun 16, 2013 at 06:38 PM.

  7. #172
    us
    Apr 2010
    York County, PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by kudo623 View Post
    Schieftain: Good stuff. Along the lines of the 'split' of Gold you mentioned half a bar found. Mathematically, there must be an even number of split bars to make a whole bar--that's obvious, but twenty-six bars cannot be evenly divided between any amount of men with half a bar--in other words the bars per man 26/x must equal (y+0.5) where x is the total men and y is an integer or whole number. So the closest split is if you have ten men each will get 2.5 bars with one bar leftover, or 17 men getting 1.5 bars with 1/2 bar leftover? How many purported bushwhackers were needed to overtake the Army detail? 11, 12 or 13 men is not an option because each would get 2 bars a piece. 14 men means 5 bars left over, 15 men is 3.5 bars left over--not an option for half a bar split either.
    I believe I posted this further back in the thread. For 26 bars and an even split, there would have to be four people. Each gets 6 bars plus half of the remaining 2 bars. If the total number of bars is actually 52, then this works for 8 men each getting 6 bars plus half of the remaining 4 bars.

  8. #173
    us
    Karl

    Jun 2011
    Quakertown PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by doverturtle View Post
    I believe I posted this further back in the thread. For 26 bars and an even split, there would have to be four people. Each gets 6 bars plus half of the remaining 2 bars. If the total number of bars is actually 52, then this works for 8 men each getting 6 bars plus half of the remaining 4 bars.
    Yeah that works out, but if there was an ambush then I'm thinking there were more than 4 men to pull it off? Eight might maybe? But I'm not 100% convinced yet that there was any ambush? I'd like to find out what Mr Parada found from his Lawyer about the purported 9 bars found up there last month? Dennis anything?

  9. #174
    us
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    Apr 2007
    Clearfield Pa. and Nova Scotia, Canada
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    No word on the 9 bars of gold found yet. We did find a whiskey bottle from the civil war period at the site and a medicine bottle and a number of civil war bullets. Lincon would not send solders with single shot guns to protect a gold shippment . The bullets we found are from Henry and Spencer rifels. It would take many men to take 12 solders with better rifels I would think. The whiskey bottle we found is from Connors and the other bottle could be medicine or poisen used to poisen all of the solders. After all the bodies were found at Bells Draft next to the water. When a rat takes poisen they go to water drink and dye. Could this be their faith. It is so quiet in Dents Run. Back then their was 120 people living there. I am sure someone would hear 12 to 20 people shooting gun's. Yet no one did. explain that . I think the 1 1/2 bars found back then was Connors. He would need to keep gold in a easy to get place so after the war he would buy the land the gold was burried on. This is what I think happen, I could be wrong. Time will tell.

  10. #175

    Feb 2004
    Mesa Arizona
    2,305
    3724 times
    That's interesting. If true a wagon could have been picked up after they were out of the ambush area. Two bars found in the 80's were covered with dried tar.

  11. #176
    us
    Apr 2011
    Philipsburg, PA
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    Spencer rifles are a possibility for the patrol. They were first issued to troops in 1863 I believe, but were in short supply at first. Ammo was very hard to get, very expensive. I think one unit had them at Gettysburg. But if this patrol was Army under supervision of the Treasury Dept., it makes sense they could have had them.

    You didn't have the full patrol when they were attacked. Connors reported that two men had deserted with a local guide named Joe one night. Maybe they circled back and attacked?

    Maybe it was an inside job. Castleton dies, Connors is gone, and O'Rourke can't keep things under control, so the patrol splits. Some men turn on O'Rourke and demand the gold. Others are loyal to the mission, and stand by O'Rourke.

  12. #177
    us
    Karl

    Jun 2011
    Quakertown PA
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    The Spencer 1860 repeating rifle (precursor to the popular Winchester) was used primarily by the Union Cavalry during the Civil War and used a .56 caliber rimfire cartridge with .52 inch caliber bullet diameter within a 7 cartridge tube. It was a very reliable rifle. The Henry 1860 repeating rifle was also used by the Army during the Civil War and also had a rimfire cartridge with .44 caliber bullet. The Spencer rifle had a greater effective distance than the Henry. The Cavalry may have also been equipped with the popular Colt 1860 Army .44 caliber cap/ball revolver. So the party definitely had some firepower/short and long range. The Henry spent shell has an H on the bottom, while the Spencer has no real markings other than the larger .56 inch diameter casing.Click image for larger version. 

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    Is this look like what you found Dennis?

    If it were an ambush then wouldn't most of the bodies including possibly some horses and mules as well be laying dead at the ambush site? It doesn't really make sense that bodies were found at the county line/spring?
    Last edited by kudo623; Jun 27, 2013 at 03:20 PM.

  13. #178
    us
    Apr 2011
    Philipsburg, PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by kudo623 View Post
    The Spencer 1860 repeating rifle (precursor to the popular Winchester) was used primarily by the Union Cavalry during the Civil War and used a .56 caliber rimfire cartridge with .52 inch caliber bullet diameter within a 7 cartridge tube. It was a very reliable rifle. The Henry 1860 repeating rifle was also used by the Army during the Civil War and also had a rimfire cartridge with .44 caliber bullet. The Spencer rifle had a greater effective distance than the Henry. The Cavalry may have also been equipped with the popular Colt 1860 Army .44 caliber cap/ball revolver. So the party definitely had some firepower/short and long range. The Henry spent shell has an H on the bottom, while the Spencer has no real markings other than the larger .56 inch diameter casing.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	590px-56-56_Spencer.JPG 
Views:	151 
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ID:	820094Click image for larger version. 

Name:	704px-44_Henry_Flat_cartridge.JPG 
Views:	169 
Size:	98.0 KB 
ID:	820095

    Is this look like what you found Dennis?

    If it were an ambush then wouldn't most of the bodies including possibly some horses and mules as well be laying dead at the ambush site? It doesn't really make sense that bodies were found at the county line/spring?

    The ambush site is at the county line. Some clarification is needed by Frank who found the gun parts there. I believe Frank termed this location the "ambush site" based on his finds?

    I don't think anyone knows exactly where the bodies were found. I think Frank was saying that they may have been found very close to where he found gun parts, (although I didn't see any springs in that specific area). The springs I've seen are a couple hundred yards west of there along the sides of the creek valley. Keep in mind that the crew that found the bodies didn't report them until several weeks later, having known about the gold, and spending that time to look around for it themselves. So who's to say they didn't move the bodies from where they found them to throw people off the trail? The location they described, "near a large spring at the head of Bell Draft", could have been a decoy. They supposedly gathered the bones (which indicates they were spread around a little?) and buried them. (I'm amazed that they reported the bodies at all!)

    In any case, if it was an inside job, you wouldn't have that many bodies. According to the best account I have, there were 8 horse soldiers (Privates), the Lt., the Sgt., Connors (guide), and 3 teamsters. Connors and 2 teamsters were sent for help. Assuming the Lt. dies of malaria shortly after (someone believes they found his grave nearby), you have 8 men: the Sgt., 1 teamster, and 6 Privates. 2 Privates had deserted with a local guide named Joe a few days before, taking 2 horses with them. Say half the patrol turned against the other half, you'd have 4 bodies. Which is what was found (skeletons of 3-5 men) by the survey party.

    As for horses and mules, if I were doing this, I would have tried not to kill the animals so I could use some to ride on, and some to pack the gold out. Two mules were found in 1866 being used by a local who found them wandering in the woods.
    Last edited by schieftain; Jun 30, 2013 at 08:41 AM.

  14. #179
    us
    Owner

    Apr 2007
    Clearfield Pa. and Nova Scotia, Canada
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    Ya thats the same kind of bullet we found at our site. We found the bullets with the broken bottles against a large , large stone. It looks like target shooting. The whiskey bottle was just broken in a fire pit with other artifacts. We put it back together and the edges where sharp not melted in any way. So the bottle was broken after the fire was out then covered with 8" of sandy soil. I believe the solders where poisen at our site after the gold was buried then taken north ( away from our site and Dents Run ) to Bell Draft where they died. There was no gun fight . No One heard anything. Connors didn't rember where the bodies where at because he knew there was no bullet holes in the uniforms or bodies. Had the army found the bodies they would know there was no gun fight. When the bodies were found they could not tell how they died. Rember Casleton died a quiet death and if Connors could do the same to the rest of them he wins. This was the only for Connors to get rid of the solders and not make any noise to draw attention to the area. Connors did leave camp and if he went down the mountain to Dents Run (store ) he could of bought the posin then returned. The story about the 9 bars of gold found by DCNR looks to be a joke or DCNR got to the people that started the story and shut them up. Time will tell
    Last edited by FinderKeeper; Jun 30, 2013 at 10:03 PM.

  15. #180
    us
    Owner

    Apr 2007
    Clearfield Pa. and Nova Scotia, Canada
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    Their was no H symbol on the shell we found, the bullets found where Spencer and Henry. DCNR in Emporium Pa, is still holding 16 artifacts from the site and that was 9 years ago they took them. I have more and no way will I give them up. DCNR says its all junk. Well most of the Civil War artifacts found are junk to them but its a treasure to us hunters. We did not agree to the offer made by DCNR yet and they did not take our offer that ends July 4th so this site is on hold again.

    Finders Keepers will pay a Reward for info on a dig that took place at our site in Sep 7 , 2011 or info on the 9 bars of gold found by DCNR.
    Last edited by FinderKeeper; Jun 30, 2013 at 10:40 PM.

 

 
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