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  1. #31
    us
    Feb 2009
    Pa
    Bountyhunter
    175

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    Oroblanco , i was raised in the shadow of Roslyn.Any theorys are welcome and enjoyed,i dont believe i deserve to come under fire for what is.
    As for the green man..it appears more at Roslyn than anywhere else in europe.Not just once , something like 34 times i believe , i will check my facts as it could easily be more.
    edited to add

    Green Men

    Green Man of the chapelAnother notable feature of Rosslyn's architecture is the presence of 'Green Men'. These are carvings of human faces with greenery all around them, often growing out of their mouths. They are commonly thought to be a symbol of rebirth or fertility, pre-Christian in origin. In Rosslyn they are found in all areas of the chapel, with one excellent example in the Lady Chapel, between the two middle altars of the east wall. The green men in Rosslyn symbolise the months of the year in progression from East to West in the Chapel. Young faces are seen in the East symbolising Spring and as we progress towards the setting sun in the West the carvings age as in Autumn of man's years. There are in excess of 110 carvings of Green men in and around the Chapel.


  2. #32
    us
    Feb 2009
    Pa
    Bountyhunter
    175

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    Im not here to debate or argue , i said id share pictures, make of them what you will.I got my numbers wrong as i was doing my best to post some pictures before i went out tonight.
    To be honest i begin to question the wisdom of posting here.Threads turn into personal beefs and i really can do without the circus and drama.

    Edited to add , where i got the 200 from is Maize was not cultivated in europe until several hundred years after Roslyn was built.Like i say i was going out tonight and should have checked what id written.
    As for the corn being stylised strawberries,wheat or anything but corn id say why are the other carvings not stylised?Why does a rose look like a rose , a thistle looks like a thistle , why is it just the maize thats stylised ?
    These people were master stonemasons creating the finest architecture throughout Europe, are we to think they couldnt draw a strawberry ?
    Ill post some of those rare photos tomorrow,i was below the chapel in the vault.Easier than it sounds..nobody stopped me or seemed to notice.
    Gnite

  3. #33

    May 2006
    506
    90 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    I think you are all getting a bit over-excited about the Green man; this is quite common in English churches; less common in Scottish churches, but the we reformers were rather more thorough in our destruction of Scottish medieval images than the English were.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man

    Smithbrown

  4. #34
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    11,350
    2786 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    ***** Newt, I enjoyed it thoroughly.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  5. #35
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,787
    1033 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    I have seen other pictures of the "maize" in Roslyn, and can see where it resembles corn. Considering the artistic abilities of the stonemasons who worked on the chapel, you would think it would be unquestionable.....it is not.

    Beyond that, why did they choose to make something that was unknown to the people, at large, part of their decorations? If they felt it was that important, why didn't they bring any corn back with them? Why are there no written documents describing the amazing crop that they found? The logic that the carvings depict corn escapes me. In fact, it is illogical.

    Just my opinion.

    Take care,

    Joe Ribaudo

  6. #36
    us
    Feb 2009
    Pa
    Bountyhunter
    175

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    Thank you Real de Tayopa , theres more to come , the best ones i think.

    Cactus jumper , thats a good point but for one slight detail , whos to say they didnt bring corn back ? It would never have grown in Scotland , it would fail to grow.

    Theres a story of how the 1st St clair sailed to the Americas , no less worthy a legend than any other and here we see some form of inscription to support it.

    Im out again tonight RDT , ill post pics this evening.

  7. #37
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,787
    1033 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    Newt,

    "Cactus jumper , thats a good point but for one slight detail , whos to say they didnt bring corn back ? It would never have grown in Scotland , it would fail to grow."

    Sorry, I believe you are badly mistaken here. Corn grows quite well in Scotland, but as I understand it, they call it maize.

    Take care,

    Joe

  8. #38
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,771
    1859 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    HOLA amigos,

    SWR wrote
    I just posted the picture and caption from the Rosslyn Chapel website. 50 years difference seems to be the theory...not 200
    My apologies for assuming the words you posted were your own. (It was not clear to me.) Whether it is 50 years or 1000 or 1, should make no difference, the stone masons should not have had knowledge of American corn prior to 1492. What is your opinion as to what those carvings represent? Thank you in advance,

    NewtoPa wrote
    To be honest i begin to question the wisdom of posting here.Threads turn into personal beefs and i really can do without the circus and drama.

    Edited to add , where i got the 200 from is Maize was not cultivated in europe until several hundred years after Roslyn was built.Like i say i was going out tonight and should have checked what id written.
    As for the corn being stylised strawberries,wheat or anything but corn id say why are the other carvings not stylised?Why does a rose look like a rose , a thistle looks like a thistle , why is it just the maize thats stylised ?
    These people were master stonemasons creating the finest architecture throughout Europe, are we to think they couldnt draw a strawberry ?
    Ill post some of those rare photos tomorrow,i was below the chapel in the vault.Easier than it sounds..nobody stopped me or seemed to notice.
    Please don't take offence at the banter that often arises among us here amigo, you are among friends and our discussions would be quite dull if we were all of a single opinion. As Cactusjumper says, some of the most interesting discussions are those with intelligent people whom we disagree with.

    I have to agree with you, there is no reason why they should have stylized anything they were familiar with. One need only look at the many things they carved in excellent detail and true to life to see they were capable of reproducing reality. On the other hand, the "corn" is not a perfect illustration of American corn either - perhaps they were NOT totally familiar with it? Something they knew of from a (relatively) brief encounter? However if this were the case, why would they have included it at all? We are left wondering.
    I look forward to seeing more of your excellent photos, and thank you again!

    Cactusjumper wrote
    Why are there no written documents describing the amazing crop that they found? The logic that the carvings depict corn escapes me. In fact, it is illogical.
    Perhaps such a document does exist? The narrative of Nicolo Zeno, which some have proposed is a record of a voyage by Henry Sinclair to America. As Sinclair's voyage seems to have been kept (relatively) secret, there is no reason to expect we will find public chronicles describing in detail where he went and his activities. It is unlikely they got the knowledge from Norse contacts, as the areas visited by the Norse explorers and colonists were quite far north - too far north for growing corn.

    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  9. #39

    Aug 2004
    1,341
    10 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    Dear group;
    Actually, corn wasn't known of in Europe until after 1492. Columbus DID bring back some new plants and animals, but please bear in mind that he never once set foot on the New World mainland, and corn does not grow natively in the Carribean. It wasn't until after the first Spanish expeditions into Mexico returned to Spain. That would have been around 1523 or thereabouts. And now, taking into consideration that products moved slowly throughout Europe, one could safely state that the New World corn was not introduced into the British Isles until around 1550.
    Your friend;
    LAMAR

  10. #40
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,771
    1859 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    HOLA amigos,

    Lamar wrote,
    Columbus DID bring back some new plants and animals, but please bear in mind that he never once set foot on the New World mainland
    I beg to differ my friend, and would point out that Columbus is believed to have landed in what is today Venezuela on his third voyage of exploration, (1502) as well as landing in what is today Nicaragua, either of which would be considered a part of the mainland New World. I am in agreement with the remainder of your statement.
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  11. #41
    us
    Jan 2009
    Hegins Pennsylvania
    62
    1 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    Roslyn has little or nothing to do with the Masons. It does actually predate known freemasonry. It is made famous by the templars fleeing persicution to scotland. They are said to have been in that area. Corn, wheat, or fruit is usually symbolic of good fortune, or just fertile land. It is a theory, that freemasonry was derived as byproduct of templars going into hideing. It is supposed that they simply change the name to avoid death by the pope and english king.

  12. #42
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,787
    1033 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    Roy,

    [Cactusjumper wrote

    Quote
    Why are there no written documents describing the amazing crop that they found? The logic that the carvings depict corn escapes me. In fact, it is illogical.]

    "Perhaps such a document does exist? The narrative of Nicolo Zeno, which some have proposed is a record of a voyage by Henry Sinclair to America. As Sinclair's voyage seems to have been kept (relatively) secret, there is no reason to expect we will find public chronicles describing in detail where he went and his activities. It is unlikely they got the knowledge from Norse contacts, as the areas visited by the Norse explorers and colonists were quite far north - too far north for growing corn."
    ______________________________________________

    The Zeno Narrative was published almost 100 years after Columbus arrived in America. There is nothing in the Zeno account that, in any way, connects it to the Sinclairs. The Sinclairs themselves were strangly silent concerning this history-making journey. Not one document, or even casual reference, is known to exist in the family's history.

    The trip, IMHO, is pure fiction. As you know, the narrative was published anonymously in 1558. That document certainly did exist, and Richard H. Major translated it from the original Italian, and republished the book in 1873. It is believed that he changed a good deal of the text to conform to the fictional Sinclair involvement, which had been put forth (originally) by the 1780s travel writer, John Reinhold Forster.

    The two Henry Sinclair historians, Father Hay being one, had nothing to say about these fantastic sea voyages. Van Bassan was the other, and neither would have missed such a great story. In fact, among others, it would have been something they would have created out of whole-cloth.

    Just my opinion.

    Take care,

    Joe


  13. #43
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,771
    1859 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    HOLA amigos,
    Cactusjumper wrote
    It is believed that he changed a good deal of the text to conform to the fictional Sinclair involvement,
    Do you know of any source(s) that will corroborate the statement, to support the idea that he changed the original text? Thank you in advance,

    I would also point out that the fact the Zeno narrative was PUBLISHED almost a century after Columbus' voyages, that does not exclude the possibility that the documents existed well before this, but were simply NOT made public. Navigational secrets were slow to become public knowledge, even well into the so-called "Age of Discovery". In fact this would be strong motive to keep such a document from the public, only releasing it when the geographical knowledge it contained were no longer unknown to the general public. (There are other examples that would parallel this case.)
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  14. #44

    Aug 2004
    1,341
    10 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    Dear Oroblanco;
    The key word is BELIEVED my friend. There is no proof that Columbus ever set foot on the mainland. Also, they maintained records of what he brought back from the New World and corn was not listed.
    Your friend;
    LAMAR

  15. #45
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,771
    1859 times

    Re: Roslyn pictures

    HOLA amigos,
    Lamar wrote
    The key word is BELIEVED my friend. There is no proof that Columbus ever set foot on the mainland.
    I must again beg to differ, you need only read the accounts of Columbus' third voyage and compare them with a map to see clear evidence that he landed at least two places on the main continents. Also ee NARRATIVE OF THE THIRD VOYAGE OF COLUMBUS AS CONTAINED IN LAS CASAS'S HISTORY some is online at:
    http://carnaval.com/americas/Columbu...-LasCasas.html
    which would indicate Columbus explored the delta of the Orinoco river in 1498. Most historians grant that Columbus did in fact land on the mainland continents, based on what evidence we have, at least by 1503.

    Lamar also wrote
    Also, they maintained records of what he brought back from the New World and corn was not listed.
    Perhaps you misread my earlier post, I was in agreement with that portion of your statements. I am not proposing that Columbus brought American corn to Europe.
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

 

 
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