JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

Mike where in heck have you been, too busy digging up GOLD amigo?

One point I think we disagree on (respectfully) are those bars. I don't think they make or break the case. Some may be fakes, which the skeptics assume are the whole story, which is hardly the case. The problem is that if they are genuine, they don't prove the Jesuits were mining nor had amassed large treasures, for they could be the proceeds from their many other commercial endeavors or from tithes from the 'faithful'.

The statue we have been debating is a puzzle (to me) for as Deducer put it, if it were intended to represent Serra from the beginning, we should be able to determine that. Also it is notably different from other statues of Serra, and it is odd that they would erect a statue to a Franciscan, famed for his establishing nine missions in California, not Arizona, beside a Jesuit, beneath a Jesuit and the Jesuit coat of arms. It makes no sense to me. Jim Hatt has been cited on this statue, and he did post this concerning the statue story some years ago:

Legends and Lore or actual history? Your guess is as good as mine.

I would like to see more to establish the facts about this statue, one way or the other.
Oroblanco

 

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My steak joe ??

 

[deducer]

it is odd that they would erect a statue to a Franciscan, famed for his establishing nine missions in California, not Arizona, beside a Jesuit, beneath a Jesuit and the Jesuit coat of arms. It makes no sense to me.

Exactly. Why is a church in Arizona celebrating the accomplishment of a man from another order from another state? I have yet to see any order of a religion celebrate an individual from another order.

Something is just not adding up right. So until I am presented with evidence that indicates otherwise, I am of the position that St. Francis Xavier Parish is not being forthright.

I have sent inquiries out to AIA, the Phoenix Historical Society, and a few other entities.

I have also sent inquiries to St. Francis Xavier Parish which (of course) have gone unanswered.

 

[releventchair]

If it takes one to know one then those who notice what does not belong may be doing so because its a landmark or has other meaning not related to adoration of a saint or martyr? Look for the Franciscan Jesuit or similar to locate such a place, person, cache location or next sign. Few people would search the outer area of statues walls or ground(s) would they?

Leaving shiftwork at near but after first lite years ago I arrived at a tiny bars back lot as usual to be discrete. Before leaving my truck a car rolled up near back door. One guy got out and walked to near the door then reached between hvac unit and wall to extract a fishing tackle box it looked like and moved quite quickly to car which once he was in hurried off. I hunt and keep an eye out for changed items or out of place things but would not have spotted that package the group in car knew was there in an convenient but hidden location when they wanted it.

 

[sailaway]

For those that think the Jesuits are dead and gone and are not aware that the Pope today is a Jesuit.
Society of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is their Oath:
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=jesuit

They are looking to find their lost treasure from when the Apache killed the fathers. I use the word treasure loosely when saying this as not all treasures are physical or material. (see black "hole" in closeup of Mina Virgon)

 

[markmar]

Another relation between Jesuits and Franciscans is depicted in one of the Tayopa map . In this map seems to coexist both in the same mission .

 

[releventchair]

Another relation between Jesuits and Franciscans is depicted in one of the Tayopa map . In this map seems to coexist both in the same mission .

View attachment 975365

I was about to edit my post again. Common for me anyway. While artist would answer best the reason for figures attire I was wondering of a neutral territory or an overlapping border area or even a safehouse. A most interesting map you post.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"The statue we have been debating is a puzzle (to me) for as Deducer put it, if it were intended to represent Serra from the beginning, we should be able to determine that. Also it is notably different from other statues of Serra, and it is odd that they would erect a statue to a Franciscan, famed for his establishing nine missions in California, not Arizona, beside a Jesuit, beneath a Jesuit and the Jesuit coat of arms. It makes no sense to me. Jim Hatt has been cited on this statue, and he did post this concerning the statue story some years ago".

It might be a little less mystifying if you consider that this particular Jesuit church has ties to the Franciscans:

ARIZONA,
PHOENIX
St. Francis Xavier Church W-90
4715 North Central Avenue
Phoenix, Arizona 85012
Phone 602-279-9547
http://www.sfxphx.org/
Access: Some restrictions apply


[History: St. Francis Xavier Church is a non-Indian parish. However, Jesuits
(California Province, Los Gatos, California) from St. Francis attended the
Phoenix Government Indian School (various), Phoenix, 1931-1969, and St.
Francis of Assisi Mission (Pima), Salt River Reservation, 1930-1946
Transferred to Queen of Peace, Mesa).]

deducer,

"Exactly. Why is a church in Arizona celebrating the accomplishment of a man from another religion from another state? I have yet to see any church of any religion celebrate an individual from another religion."

The Jesuit Order and the Franciscan Order are not different religions. Both are Orders of the Catholic Church.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

The Jesuit Order and the Franciscan Order are not different religions. Both are Orders of the Catholic Church.

Take care,

Joe

My mistake; thanks for pointing that out.

I do believe, however, that there was great friction between the two orders, that sometimes became heated especially when it came to expanding into new territory. After the Franciscans gained a strategic foothold in Canton (China), this caused the Jesuit bishop of Macao to complain to Gregory XIII about "unfair competition."

In "The Opatas" by David Yetmen, (esp. page 101-3, chapter 4) the competition or rivalry between the Jesuits and Franciscans in the New World was described to be pretty heated, and sometimes culminated in petty acts such as the disappearance of the baptismal records of the Bacerac church which would have proven that the Franciscans baptized far more Indians than the Jesuits.

Many more examples can be found, but one gets the impression that they did not get along, especially when both of them were vying for more recognition and attention from the pope.

 

[cactusjumper]

My mistake; thanks for pointing that out.

I do believe, however, that there was great friction between the two orders, that sometimes became heated especially when it came to expanding into new territory. After the Franciscans gained a strategic foothold in Canton (China), this caused the Jesuit bishop of Macao to complain to Gregory XIII about "unfair competition."

In "The Opatas" by David Yetmen, (esp. page 101-3, chapter 4) the competition or rivalry between the Jesuits and Franciscans in the New World was described to be pretty heated, and sometimes culminated in petty acts such as the disappearance of the baptismal records of the Bacerac church which would have proven that the Franciscans baptized far more Indians than the Jesuits.

Many more examples can be found, but one gets the impression that they did not get along, especially when both of them were vying for more recognition and attention from the pope.

deducer,

Quite true......for that era. In modern times it's a different story. Remember, San Xavier Church was only completed in 1959.

Today the Catholic Church has a Jesuit Pope, who took a Franciscan name.

Joe

 

[deducer]

I did find it interesting that the pope took the name of the founder of the Franciscan order. I bet it dismayed many a Jesuit. I believe his intentions in doing so were two-fold, one to bridge the differences between both orders, and the other, to convey the message of living in poverty which was the center of St. Francis's preachings.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

The only way to conclusively determine who the statue is supposed to represent is is to know something of the intent in the original design, be it blueprint or construction notes. Hopefully I have some new leads soon.

 

[cactusjumper]

I did find it interesting that the pope took the name of the founder of the Franciscan order. I bet it dismayed many a Jesuit. I believe his intentions in doing so were two-fold, one to bridge the differences between both orders, and the other, to convey the message of living in poverty which was the center of St. Francis's preachings.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

The only way to conclusively determine who the statue is supposed to represent is is to know something of the intent in the original design, be it blueprint or construction notes. Hopefully I have some new leads soon.

deducer,

Don't have any idea why the Pope picked a Franciscan name. I know Jesuits who would know the answer, but I wouldn't bother them with the question.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

TheBlaze/AP) — The focus of Pope Francis’ papacy began to emerge Saturday as he offered some intimate insights into the conclave that elected him pontiff, describing how he was immediately inspired to name himself after St. Francis of Assisi because he wants to see a church that is “for the poor.” His comments provided further evidence that this first Latin American papacy would be one that looks beyond the confines of the church itself to the most disadvantaged, named for a 13th-century friar who renounced a wealthy, dissolute lifestyle to embrace a life of poverty and simplicity and go out in the countryside to preach a message of joy and peace.
“Let me tell you a story,” Pope Francis began in a break from his prepared text during an audience for a few thousand journalists and Vatican communications officials in the Vatican’s auditorium.
He described how during the conclave he was comforted by his friend, Brazilian Cardinal Claudio Hummes, as the votes were going his way and it seemed “a bit dangerous” that he would reach the two-thirds necessary to be elected.
When the threshold was reached, applause erupted in the frescoed Sistine Chapel.
“He (Hummes) hugged me. He kissed me. He said, `Don’t forget about the poor!’” Francis recalled.

Newly elected Pope Francis holds his first audience with journalists and media inside the Paul VI hall on March 16, 2013 in Vatican City, Vatican. (Photo: Getty Images)

“And those words came to me: The poor. The poor. Then right away, thinking of the poor, I thought of Francis of Assisi. Then I thought of all the wars as the votes were being counted, until the end. Francis is also the man of peace. That is how the name came into my heart: Francis of Assisi.”
The pope said some have wondered whether his name was a reference to other Franciscan figures, including St. Frances de Sales or even the co-founder of the pope’s own Jesuit order, Francis Xavier. But he said the inspiration was Francis of Assisi.
Sitting in the vast Vatican auditorium, Francis continued: “For me, he is the man of poverty, the man of peace, the man who loves and protects creation. These days we don’t have a very good relationship with creation, do we?” he said. “He is the man who gives us this spirit of peace, the poor man.”
“Oh how I would like a church which is poor and for the poor!” Francis said, sighing.
He then joked that some other cardinals suggested other names: Hadrian VI, after a great church reformer – a reference to the need for the pope to clean up the Vatican’s messy bureaucracy. Someone else suggested Clement XV, to get even with Clement XIV, who suppressed the Jesuit order in 1773.

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer & Roy,

Personally, I don't feel the facade of the church has any hidden meaning, nor have I seen any evidence that Father Rocha was ever identified as being one of the figures on the facade. I believe the figure looks more like Father Serra than any Jesuit, including Rocha.

If you feel it's worth pursuing, it should not be that difficult to run the story down. It makes for good mental exercise.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Found these with an online search of Junipero Serra.
While it does seem unusual to give such prominence to a Franciscan friar at the very entrance to a Jesuit center, the possibility exists, IMO. Could also be that the sculptor may have used prior examples of Serra statuary as a guide..... if no portraits of Roxas were available to the artist.
Not sure of dates related to these bits......

And postcard....

 

[deducer]

If by Rocha, you mean Rojas, then yes there doesn't seem to be concrete evidence that Rojas is the third statue.

However, as stated before, I have no reasons to believe Jim Hatt or the others made up their stories or otherwise distorted them. There remains the possibility that all of them were collectively mistaken, but the odds of that happening is pretty slim.

So we come down to two possibilities, they all made it up, or they were lied to, collectively. I am giving them all the benefit of the doubt and assume that they did not lie.

A few things should satisfy this inquiry: a likeness of Rojas to compare to the statue, or a high quality image of the third statue, to examine it more closer (I am as yet unable to determine if that statue has the "white rope" characteristic of the St. Francis order). What would also be conclusive would be blueprints or design notes, and I have made inquiries into those areas.

 

[deducer]

Found these with an online search of Junipero Serra.
While it does seem unusual to give such prominence to a Franciscan friar at the very entrance to a Jesuit center, the possibility exists, IMO. Could also be that the sculptor may have used prior examples of Serra statuary as a guide..... if no portraits of Roxas were available to the artist.
Not sure of dates related to these bits......

Good find, SH.

That postcard looks rather old and may yet deal the Rojas story a fatal blow.

Although no date exists on the postcard, we could do a comparison with postcards in general of approximately the same era.

EDIT: I found the below postcard being sold on *bay. Seller has indicated postcard was used in 1963, so it is at least that old. As you can see, it is the exact same postcard (A Petley original) that SH found. I think this is pretty conclusive evidence that the 3rd statue is Serra and was always intended to be. Pending the results of my other inquiries, I stand to retract all statements I have made in regard to the Rojas story and the facade of the St. Francis Xavier Parish.

 

[somehiker]

Good find, SH.

That postcard looks rather old and may yet deal the Rojas story a fatal blow.

Although no date exists on the postcard, we could do a comparison with postcards in general of approximately the same era.

EDIT: I found the below postcard being sold on *bay. Seller has indicated postcard was used in 1963, so it is at least that old. As you can see, it is the exact same postcard (A Petley original) that SH found. I think this is pretty conclusive evidence that the 3rd statue is Serra and was always intended to be. Pending the results of my other inquiries, I stand to retract all statements I have made in regard to the Rojas story and the facade of the St. Francis Xavier Parish.

View attachment 975642

It's a small world....the photographer....Obituary: Bob Petley created Arizona jackalope - Tucson Citizen Morgue, Part 1 (2006-2009)

 

[cactusjumper]

Good find, SH.

That postcard looks rather old and may yet deal the Rojas story a fatal blow.

Although no date exists on the postcard, we could do a comparison with postcards in general of approximately the same era.

EDIT: I found the below postcard being sold on *bay. Seller has indicated postcard was used in 1963, so it is at least that old. As you can see, it is the exact same postcard (A Petley original) that SH found. I think this is pretty conclusive evidence that the 3rd statue is Serra and was always intended to be. Pending the results of my other inquiries, I stand to retract all statements I have made in regard to the Rojas story and the facade of the St. Francis Xavier Parish.

View attachment 975642

deducer,

Thank you for the correction. Of course I meant Rojas.

As for Jim Hatt making up stories, I have personal knowledge of people making up stories about me, out of whole cloth.
Not saying that Jim did that, but others here know more about those kind of things than I.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,
<snip>

It might be a little less mystifying if you consider that this particular Jesuit church has ties to the Franciscans:

and

ARIZONA,
PHOENIX
St. Francis Xavier Church W-90
4715 North Central Avenue
Phoenix, Arizona 85012
Phone 602-279-9547
http://www.sfxphx.org/
Access: Some restrictions apply


[History: St. Francis Xavier Church is a non-Indian parish. However, Jesuits
(California Province, Los Gatos, California) from St. Francis attended the
Phoenix Government Indian School (various), Phoenix, 1931-1969, and St.
Francis of Assisi Mission (Pima), Salt River Reservation, 1930-1946
Transferred to Queen of Peace, Mesa).]

and

deducer & Roy,

Personally, I don't feel the facade of the church has any hidden meaning, nor have I seen any evidence that Father Rocha was ever identified as being one of the figures on the facade. I believe the figure looks more like Father Serra than any Jesuit, including Rocha.

If you feel it's worth pursuing, it should not be that difficult to run the story down. It makes for good mental exercise.

Good luck,

Thank you for providing that info on the linkage of that church to the Franciscans, however it seems rather tenuous; not a clear cut thing, as for instance, if the church had been Franciscan before becoming Jesuit run, as we see in some Franciscan mission churches which have some visual "nod" to the Jesuits whom preceded them. Actually it would have made more sense if the statue in question had been Rojas or any other Jesuit, rather than Serra, which is still peculiar.

Not however earth-shattering, nor will it settle anything of the debate in this topic. As I have limited time to spend in running down anything, this one does not appear to be justified, especially as it now is shown to be known as Serra at least as early as 1963, the church was then only four years old, I don't think we need to look farther.

As to Jim Hatt, the evidence does not point to him as an originator of the story, and he himself stated that he was unsure if it were history or legend. Whomever started this story of the statue being Rojas, it does not look to be Jim Hatt.

If anyone finds an image or depiction of father Rojas, we ought to return to this subject of the statue and do an eyeball comparison however.

To try to tie this back in to topic, I had found contemporary confirmation of the Jesuits owning and operating silver mines in Argentina, which had been referred to some time ago in a study done well after their expulsion, however I forgot to post it that night (it was late already) and this sort of evidence does not seem to help change opinions. If you like I could hunt up the old post which had the story of the Jesuit silver mines in Argentina, and add the reference which was published while the Jesuits were actively operating the mines. In that example you can now have the legend/story of lost silver mines, some found which you can visit, and contemporary confirmation that these mines were owned and run by Jesuits.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, great posts BTW and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco