JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[sailaway]

But who and when were the Tumacacori maps made? and who says the map maker used that meridian? and the 33 is disguised in text. in this form in Old Spanish:
3 peanuts
3 to keep, to have, to hold
So is it more modern or older?
The Map source was from Bill right here in Corpus Christi, Texas and a once active member of T-net. Sad to say he is in bad health and may not live much longer, but I have talked to his wife. The 111 degrees was exactly that and may have been added by Bill for all I know, as mine is a hand drawn copy by another member here. I know who gave me the map and where the source was from. I have seen the old system but yet I believe the maps were from as early as 1558, or even earlier, before there was a map of the area. I have used this map to great success in the area of Iron Mountain and every landmark lines up, so its up to those of you who are in the "know" to determine the source of his map and the date. If it is of more "recent" origin does it mean that someone has already converted the "Old" equivalent into the equation of Lat. and Lon.? I wish I could speak with Bill about this but he is not there to ask. He spent thousands of dollars chasing the Tumacacori Treasure. It also says in Spanish this: there is not much time today and treasure in hidden mine on the left side of the trail. It also says Junto de Pristas in a spot that lines up with the Priest east of Iron Mountain. I need to digitize my work so I can give everyone a better picture of the area.
I also must let you know this map had nothing to do with finding the Mina Virgon. I did not receive this map till I got back from Arizona. If I had this on my trip out there I would have pictures of the treasure or the mine shaft at a minimum. Because the mine shaft is across the canyon.
to Cactus Jumper:
Joe I will always want more information on this area.

 

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[cactusjumper]

sailaway,

The original San Cayetano Del Tumacacori was located on the east side of the Santa Cruz River. One person who wrote an excellent book, and did extensive archaeological work on, what he thought was, Tumacacori. The entire book, for the most part, is great. Only problem, his site wasn't Tumacacori.

Still a great read: THE UPPER PIMA OF SAN CAYETANO DEL TUMACACORI". There are many, many sources for information on Tumacacori. I'm talking about the real history, not the numerous treasure tales. Google it.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

The Tumacacori Mission Revisited: A short synopsis of the life and times at the mission.

 

[deducer]

Not exactly relevant but still interesting:

Ruins in Arizona May Be ?Lost? Jesuit Mission | Western Digs

 

[sailaway]

But Cacti were was Tumacacori in 1658? what I see is all of 1700 and later.
1581
• Captain Francisco Chamuscado led an expedition from Mexico to Cíbola, New Mexico, composed of 10 soldiers, 19 Christian Indians and 3 Franciscans, along with 90 horses, 600 cows, pigs and sheep.
• The Franciscan missionary Fray Agustín Rodríguez accompanied an expedition to Texas, hoping to preach the gospel there. The expedition reached the area of the Big Bend and Fray Agustín is believed to have given the actual name of the region, calling it "New Mexico of Santa Fe of San Francisco."
• Friars Agustín Rodríguez, Francisco López and Juan de Santamaria, accompanied by Chamuscado, founded the Mission of San Bartolomé, near Bernalillo, New Mexico. They led a missionary effort as far as Taos, Acoma and Zuñí. Soon afterwards the three friars were martyred.
1600
•Franciscan missionaries founded missions in Arizona. Pedro de Vergara returned to San Gabriel, New Mexico, with more colonists, missionaries and supplies.
1604
• Oñate led an expedition from San Gabriel to find a passage to the Pacific Ocean. He went through Arizona, the Colorado River, Yuma and, finally, he reached the Gulf of California.
• Oñate was the first European to follow the Colorado River to its mouth.
1629
• Franciscans Francisco Porras, Andrés Gutiérrez and Cristóbal de la Concepción founded the San Bernardino Mission, San Francisco de Oraibi, San Buenaventura de Mishongnovi, San Bartolomé de Shongopovi and Kisakobi, in Arizona.
• Fray Francisco Porras was poisoned by Indians in Arizona. It is believed that his companions were killed in the same fashion.
1644
• By this year there were thirty five missions in Sonora, Mexico, and thirty thousand Christian Indians. These missions later served for the colonization and christianization of Arizona.
1680
• Pueblo Indian uprising in New Mexico. In the city of Santa Fe, the Indian killed four hundred men, women and children and twenty one missionaries.
The three missionaries in the Mission of Santo Domingo, Francisco Antonio Lorenzana, Juan de Talabán and José Montes de Oca, were killed during the Pueblo rebellion.
• Friars José de Espeleta, José de Trujillo, José Figueroa and Agustín de Santa María were killed in Tusayan, Arizona, during the Pueblo rebellion
http://coloquio.com/coloquioonline/2005/0510hispanicrole.htm

 

[deducer]

But Cacti were was Tumacacori in 1568? what I see is all of 1700 and later

As far as the Jesuits are concerned, Tumacacori didn't exist until 1691 when Fr. Kino came.

 

[Oroblanco]

Deducer wrote

This is all very interesting. I stand corrected.

Well - I do not have a copy of the Rules and Precepts, however you may well have pointed up yet another example of the disobedience of the Jesuit Rules/Precepts concerning arms. If their rules did not allow weapons, why did some have them?


Sailaway wrote, to Cactusjumper

But Cacti were was Tumacacori in 1658? what I see is all of 1700 and later.

You have raised one of the problems with the Molina document - the date is TOO EARLY, and may indicate that it is not really a date! It may prove profitable to keep an open mind when reading that document, and not to read it literally. The village later known to the Jesuits as Tumacacori probably was existing in 1658, but with NO mission or visita at all, on the east side of the river though the exact location is a matter of some debate.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

According to Father Kino, in 1691 the natives of San Cayetano del Tumacacori traveled south into Soba territory (in Sonora) to beg for visitation from the priests. Kino and Salvatierra were greetedd by couriers from the north who "came carrying crosses, and, pleaded on their knees that they would also visit their settlements. The missionaries could not refuse the native's request. (Burrus 1971, p. 43).

There is no question, anymore, that Tumacacori was on the east side of the Santa Cruz River. (Deni J. Seymour 2007).

sailaway,

All of your points are correct. Only thing is, the Spaniards did not take a route that would take them into Western Arizona. They went up the east side. I believe all of the Franciscan missions were on that side of the state.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

There is no question, anymore, that Tumacacori was on the east side of the Santa Cruz River. (Deni J. Seymour 2007)

I believe I posted, quote The village later known to the Jesuits as Tumacacori probably was existing in 1658, but with NO mission or visita at all, on the east side of the river though the exact location is a matter of some debate. However it is possible that the Indian village may have been located elsewhere in 1658, perhaps not even on the river. Who can say for certain?

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactusjumper wrote


I believe I posted, quote The village later known to the Jesuits as Tumacacori probably was existing in 1658, but with NO mission or visita at all, on the east side of the river though the exact location is a matter of some debate. However it is possible that the Indian village may have been located elsewhere in 1658, perhaps not even on the river. Who can say for certain?

Roy,

I don't believe I mentioned 1658.

From "Spain in the Southwest" by Jon L. Kessell on page 135, he writes:

[Amid a cluster of forty or more scattered, dome-shaped, brush and earth-covered houses flanked by open ramadas, the Pima residents, alerted and instructed by Kino's Yaqui or Opata foremen, had erected three shelters, "one in which to say mass, another in which to sleep, and the third for cooking." The polysyllabic name of the place sounded to Europeans like Tumacacori.] It eventually became a visita of Guevavi.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,


I don't believe I mentioned 1658. From "Spain in the Southwest" by Jon L. Kessell on page 135, he writes:


[Amid a cluster of forty or more scattered, dome-shaped, brush and earth-covered houses flanked by open ramadas, the Pima residents, alerted and instructed by Kino's Yaqui or Opata foremen, had erected three shelters, "one in which to say mass, another in which to sleep, and the third for cooking." The polysyllabic name of the place sounded to Europeans like Tumacacori." Tumacacori eventually became a visita of Guevavi.]

I was merely pointing out that I was NOT contending that Tumacacori was on the W side of the river, originally; the point about 1658 is from Sailaway's question to you,

Sailaway wrote, to Cactusjumper
But Cacti were was Tumacacori in 1658? what I see is all of 1700 and later.

Hence the reference to 1658, and where the village was, or MIGHT have been located as of that date as was asked. I do not know of any reference to Tumacacori dating to before Kino's visits, or perhaps we might have more information about the location decades prior to his arrival there.

Oroblanco

 

[sailaway]

I am no expert on the early history of the area and everyone here knows what I do as fast as I find the information. My goal when I started all this was simply to stop people from dying in the desert needlessly. When I read that many people die every year out in the area looking for the lost Dutchman mine it appalled me. It is so much easier to search the area from the comfort of your air-conditioned house than to wander about aimlessly. I realize that many things can not be seen from Google Earth, but it is so much better to get your exact locations then make short quick jumps in and out.
I did not have my map with me yesterday and was going by memory so here is what the border of my map says:
Que nos Que hay algo escondido a lla derecha which I translated as: Because today there isn't much time is there, any secretly hidden mine on right side. I may be wrong but that is what I get out of the words, and what I get from Tumacacori word is: to know and understand with a view to hieroglyphic. (my map has "Mina de Tumacacori Jeroglifico") The map here I believe was done by Mike Allan at the same time that my map was drawn, yet he did his fast and left some things off and angles are not the same. Mine has perpendicular lines where the one here is drawn with unknown angles in spots. Both maps were hand drawn from Bill Denny's original. I called Dick today(artist of mine) to ask about the problems and the coordinates on my map, but he could not remember what was original and what Bill may have entered. He was going to contact Hanna to see if we can clear all this up. even though there is problems with the Lat. and Lon. it would not affect the minutes and seconds of the map?
I had no idea it would go beyond the Lost Dutchman Mine, to a lost mission , to a hidden treasure.

Side Note:
Jacob Waltz was German, he found a gold mine, and wrote to a friend in Germany. He probably wrote to family and who knows who all, could Hitler have put it all together and figured out where the Jesuit treasure was and this was the Gold that he was going to dump on the American market?
(back to the LUE treasure)
And if he found it did he move it to Utah? and did he find it all? There are two mines in the spot that the maps point to on a major fault line, and one is open and easily visible from Google Earth, and the other is still closed in. Both are on the tectonic plate I call the "Sierra Bell", wedged between the Priest plate and the Horse plate and the Heart plate. Everything meets or comes together there at the "crack" in the bell.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hmm it was posted --> Que nos Que hay algo escondido a lla derecha

~~~~~~~~~~~

we know that there is something hidden on the right.

JOse

 

[Oroblanco]

Sailaway wrote

I am no expert on the early history of the area and everyone here knows what I do as fast as I find the information.

Even a complete beginner may have something new to contribute to our discussions, whether from a fresh viewpoint or simply a different way of interpreting things.


Sailaway also wrote

My goal when I started all this was simply to stop people from dying in the desert needlessly. When I read that over 240 people die every year out in the area looking for the lost Dutchman mine it appalled me. It is so much easier to search the area from the comfort of your air-conditioned house than to wander about aimlessly. I realize that many things can not be seen from Google Earth, but it is so much better to get your exact locations then make short quick jumps in and out.

I think someone gave you some false information there - nowhere near that number of people die EVERY YEAR looking for the Lost Dutchman, in fact that figure sounds more like the grand total for ALL TIME. There are years when there are NO deaths, and again, there may be several in one year. No year has there been that high of a figure. However it is an admirable goal to try to save lives from being wasted needlessly, and one way to help is to drive home the point to everyone interested in hunting the Lost Dutchman how important it is to go PREPARED, have good maps, tell someone exactly (or as close as possible) where you plan to go, and when you expect to be out, so that if something bad happens the searchers will know right where to look for you.


Sailaway also wrote

I had no idea it would go beyond the Lost Dutchman Mine, to a lost mission , to a hidden treasure.

Actually I think those two are un-related; I have never seen anything to link the Lost Dutchman gold mine with the SILVER mines and mission of Tumacacori, which mission is located some distance from the Superstitions mountains where Jacob Waltz was seen to operate. Also considering that mines associated with Tumacacori have been found in the Santa Rita mountains and evidence of workings in the mountains west of the mission, plus Waltz's story traces to a Spanish or Mexican family named Peralta rather than Jesuits, I don't think they are connected at all.


Sailaway also wrote

Side Note:
Jacob Waltz was German, he found a gold mine, and wrote to a friend in Germany. He probably wrote to family and who knows who all, could Hitler have put it all together and figured out where the Jesuit treasure was and this was the Gold that he was going to dump on the American market?

I don't know of any letter written by Waltz to a friend in Germany; the only living relative mentioned that I know of is a sister, and she lived in America too. I doubt that Hitler ever looked for Waltz's mine, nor any Jesuit treasure, his archaeological "digs" were mainly aimed at finding specific items like the Spear of Destiny (which was not lost, was in a museum) or the Holy Grail or especially evidence to prove the "Aryan" race was linked to Atlantis and Tibet, South America etc. Not so much treasures for cash value.


Sailaway also wrote

(back to the LUE treasure)
And if he found it did he move it to Utah? and did he find it all? There are two mines in the spot that the maps point to on a major fault line, and one is open and easily visible from Google Earth, and the other is still closed in. Both are on the tectonic plate I call the "Sierra Bell", wedged between the Priest plate and the Horse plate. Everything meets or comes together there at the "crack" in the bell.

I am no expert on the LUE treasure, however the stone maps you seem to refer to here may be modern fakes, just something to consider.


The history of the southwest is very complex and fascinating, I think that the more you research these mysteries, the more you will become 'hooked', and better your chances of discovering something good. Good luck and good hunting amigo I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[sailaway]

Oro wrote: I don't know of any letter written by Waltz to a friend in Germany. I believe that Waltz wrote Wiser to get him over here, Wiser was in Germany. Waltz came here from Germany.
I am not refering to any maps even though the horse map and Priest map are part of the Peralta stones. 1609 Pedro de Peralta was appointed governor of New Mexico.
( http://coloquio.com/coloquioonline/2...spanicrole.htm )

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro wrote: I don't know of any letter written by Waltz to a friend in Germany. I believe that Waltz wrote Wiser to get him over here, Wiser was in Germany. Waltz came here from Germany.
I am not refering to any maps even though the horse map and Priest map are part of the Peralta stones. Peralta was the first governor of what became Sante Fe, New Mexico.

We have no evidence that Weiser was related to Waltz, nor that he came from Germany. He may have simply been of German extraction, like Pennsylvania Dutch, and there are several Jacob Weiser/Wiser/Wisner candidates listed in the census-es for PA, Ohio, Indiana and Missouri who may be "the" Jacob Weiser of the Waltz story.

There are Peraltas in Arizona as well amigo, in fact they owned a rich gold mine in Black Canyon until they grew tired of the constant Apache attacks and one brother was killed there, another grievously wounded; the surviving brother then operated a store for some time before committing suicide. Other Peraltas in Arizona are mentioned in AZ newspapers, having a mine NEAR the Superstition mountains and involved in another Apache attack; plus farther back in time (if memory serves) there was even a Peralta involved with the Anza expedition from Tubac to California in the 1770s.

The Peraltas in New Mexico are quite another story - however as far as I know, there are no connections between them and any events in Arizona mines.

I got the impression you were linking the Peralta stone maps by your earlier reference:
Sailaway also wrote

wedged between the Priest plate and the Horse plate

- as two of the Peralta stones are called Priest and Horse, hence the impression you may have linked those stone maps to fault lines.

I must get back to work but will try to pop in later, hope you have a great day amigo.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

My goal when I started all this was simply to stop people from dying in the desert needlessly. When I read that over 240 people die every year out in the area looking for the lost Dutchman mine it appalled me. It is so much easier to search the area from the comfort of your air-conditioned house than to wander about aimlessly. I realize that many things can not be seen from Google Earth, but it is so much better to get your exact locations then make short quick jumps in and out.

I think it doesn't take any more than common sense to survive in the Supes. Don't hike there in the summer time, and when you do go, dress appropriately and bring plenty of water, and know what you are doing and where you are going. There are plenty of people who have walked all over the Supes for many years, and nothing happened to them simply because they had a little respect for the mountains.

IMO, a big part of what you are talking about, has to do with being smart and being responsible when it comes to doing research and sharing it with other posters. Make sure your information can be corroborated, cited, or otherwise backed up. While it's everyone's right to come up with their own theory, no matter how grandiose, it still doesn't help when they make things up.

 

[sailaway]

I have never read that the Tumacacori treasure and the Lue treasure are one and the same. It is a question I have and am raising to those that know more than me. I have looked at both the Tumacacori and Lue maps and to me they both point at the same spot. So it is questions that I raise to all of you.
Oro I will have Digitized copies to post to here Sunday.

 

[markmar]

sailaway

You wrote " I have looked at both the Tumacacori and Lue maps ad to me they both point at the same spot "

Can you explain the similarities is these maps ?

For Tumacacori map I didn't a description , yet , but for the LUE map I did at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/4186-lue-map-2.html post #33 .

 

[sailaway]

The Lue map has pyramids on both sides. Count the pyramids by looking at them, one side has three large pyramids which equals 111 degrees. Inside the pyramids on that side the first has a 0 so equals 0, the second has 4, the third has 4, the last is half a pyramid with 1 partial and 2 half partials. Put it together it is 111 degrees 04 minutes 41.55 seconds. The other side has 3 pyramids in a row so 33 degrees, the first pyramid has 1 pyramid in it and 2 parts, second pyramid has 1 pyramid in it with 1 part, third pyramid is blanked out. Put it together and its 33 degrees 12 minutes 11.00 seconds. It shows going north past the stairs to the "eye of the needle". You turn at the "Needle in the hay stack" which is the column, go till the trail splits, take the smaller first trail to right, follow this trail till it bends and you will see a shaft on your left high in the center of a cliff along a fault. that is what I read in the Lue map and the bars are how much treasure there is inside. How ever this post would be better off where they talk about the Lue treasure, but I have brought up the connection to the two. The coordinates should be the meeting spot for who knows whom.
The simularities are that the Tumacacori map points to a mine just past this spot that has a mine that is filled in, in the same canyon. This trail is the crack in the Sierra Bell.

 

[Springfield]

... Make sure your information can be corroborated, cited, or otherwise backed up...

Old documents, reports and letters are available for the tenacious researcher, sure, but in the realm of bona-fide 'lost mines and hidden treasures' - IMO a much smaller venue than many insist on believing - all that can be expected is smoke, not fire. Disinformation is not a recent tactic - human nature requires that proprietary information remains private, and there are many ways to obfuscate the truth and send the curious down endless blind alleys. Even (especially) official government documents, pious priests' reports and reliable eyewitness memoirs may, by their apparent authority, be seriously gaming you. If you can withhold even 10% of the secret, then it may as well be 100%. What remains is endless circular debate - obviously.