JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote

Us noobs don't know these places. Can you hook us up with coordinates so we can gawk on the googles? Whee is Kemms place?
Thanks!

Kemm, whom went by the ID of SantaFeNewMexican here, had posted his site here and on several places online, if memory serves it is/was on Blacktop Mesa. Just look through the older threads and you can't fail to find it.


Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Allo mi compadre Oro, May I ask were the coadjutors under any 'obligation' to report their activities to a lowly mission priest

Yes absolutely they had to report to the "lowly" mission padres; their sole purpose for even being there was to assist the padres and deal with "temporal" needs. So yes they would be the man over-seeing operations at mines, handling livestock, plowing etc but they reported to the padres for everything.


Don Jose el Tropical Tramp also wrote

As for the supers There is actually no ocmparison, or is there ??

I would have to say no - comparison; I have not seen anything to tie the Jesuits in with any kind of activities in the Superstitions, while in the area of Tayopa there are records.


Markmar wrote

Roy


You are right . pictures of the gold bars or gold vein are the best evidences . But is not stupid to show pictures like these from a spot which is in a potecred land ? These pictures are evidences of an outlaw work and could exist consequences . Is worth to take the risk ? Would you have posted them ? A smart person , never take pictures of an outlaw work which could be used against him . What happened if in your return a forest ranger have checked your photos ?


Now , I don't say how I am/was outlaw , just explain .

First - who says the mine is even IN the Wilderness Area? Next, you do not need to do any "illegal work" to obtain photos of an ore vein in place, nor of a mine. Jacob Waltz never sold any gold bars, only raw gold and raw gold ore. Did you read my post above? You could go to the mine, get the necessary photos a document your discovery, then approach the Forest Service to apply for a permit to mine. If they turned you down, even that document may provide the solid proof that it is indeed the mine of Jacob Waltz, if the Forest Service says it is, many people would take that as concrete evidence even if you could never legally mine it.


Sailaway wrote

Oroblanco stated: why then does he (or they) not go out to the mine themselves, and get some gold, or at least get the solid evidence to make a case to the Forest Service in order to start the ball rolling for obtaining a permit


Mining claims are not allowed in the National Wilderness Preservation System areas. If that was not the case I would be mining right now and you would never have heard of me, I would have been as silent as could be and walked my gold out. You can not sell the gold collected in the wilderness area, nor get it assayed, as the only assayers offices are the Federal Mints, (N.Y., Denver, Sacramento, etc.) I had the documents prepared for the Bureau of Mines, Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service with the exact location of township, range and mining district. I have these documents and was prepared to file them. I even had the documents for Notice of Intent for exploration of Federal lands with the expiration date of Aug. 31, 2013 for minerals for the area. It would have been so much better to be mining than talking about it. I went to my area to check it out in person (I took photos) and to file claims of location. The mine is marked with a monument so everything was in place to file my location claim in the county. and then with the Federal Government.
Energy
Attachment 983584
Gold of the Mina Virgon

I am not going to waste your time and mine, but it IS possible to have a mining claim inside of a Wilderness Area, by several possibilities, and will require legal actions on your part. There is legal grounds to get a parcel of land removed from Wilderness status, IF it is rich in minerals and would pass the Prudent Man test, for the legal requirements for all Wilderness Areas was that ALL MINERALIZED LANDS WERE TO BE EXCLUDED. This is why the Forest Service and USGS executed several official studies, to delineate those mineralized areas so as to exclude them. If and I do mean IF you have found a rich mine, and can prove it, you can then proceed to start the legal fight. Another method is by the land exchange, in which you would need to buy lands that the Forest Service wants to add to their wilderness areas, and then make an official exchange. Nothing is ever impossible amigo.


On the other hand, if you folks are SO convinced that it is absolutely impossible to ever mine the Lost Dutchman gold mine legally, why bother to look for it at all? You could spend your time looking for a missing 737 by satellite photos, and be pronounced a hero if you found it.


My sincere apologies to the thread owner my amigo Mike (Gollum) for having drifted SO far OFF TOPIC here, seems we must re-hash some things over and over and over. I have no idea what the Lost Dutchman mine has to do with the question, Jesuit Treasures, Are They Real?


Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

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[cactusjumper]

sailaway

"......nor get it assayed, as the only assayers offices are the Federal Mints, (N.Y., Denver, Sacramento, etc.)"

There is no Federal Mint in Sacramento........and there never has been one there. There are many, many places to get ore assayed.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

sailaway

"......nor get it assayed, as the only assayers offices are the Federal Mints, (N.Y., Denver, Sacramento, etc.)"

There is no Federal Mint in Sacramento........and there never has been one there. There are many, many places to get ore assayed.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Muchas gracias Joe - sorry I missed that part but you are correct - the US Mints do NOT do assays, and there are a number of good assayers available for fees of course.

 

[cactusjumper]

Muchas gracias Joe - sorry I missed that part but you are correct - the US Mints do NOT do assays, and there are a number of good assayers available for fees of course.

Roy,

Don't know what their rules are now, but it used to be that the US Mints only took bullion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sailaway]

For a fee you may send your gold here:
ASSAYERS AND ASSAY OFFICES IN ARIZONA
http://mines.az.gov/Publications/circ091assayers.pdf
To sell your gold through the Federal Government and keep yourself out of hot water:
Records of the U.S. Mint
Silver, Gold and Taxes (in the United States)
Current U.S. assay offices include the following:
The Philadelphia Mint – 1792 to date
The Denver Mint – 1862 to date. It served as an Assay Office until 1906, when coinage operations began.
The San Francisco Mint – 1852 to date. Coinage operations were suspended in March 1955, but the plant continued to operate as an Assay Office. In 1962, its official designation was changed from Mint to Assay Office. Coinage operations were again authorized in 1965.
The West Point, New York Bullion Depository – 1938 to date. It is operated as an adjunct of the New York Assay Office.
The Assay Office in Ozark, Arkansas was established in 1835. It has operated as a private club and music venue since the mid-1960s.
Jacobs Assay Office in Tucson, Arizona was established in 1880. It has operated as a family business since its establishment in March 1880 in Tucson Arizona - Washington Michael Jacobs
Assay office - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Executive Order 6102 is a United States presidential executive order signed on April 5, 1933, by President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States". The order criminalized the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation.
Executive Order 6102 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is a Federal crime to remove any historic or pre-historic items from Public Land including a mining claim.
Mining Claim Information - Minerals & Mining - BLM Arizona
I was mistaken when I put in error Sacramento, it is however in San Francisco. I however have no money to spend on an assay that I can not sale.

 

[markmar]

Roy

I can't have a mining claim in USA . I am not American citizen . If I was , for sure I would try for a permit to mine .

I believe the Jesuits have hidden some gold ( a galleon ) in the Superstitions . The place is depicted in some maps . I gave an example few posts before but have ignored . Never mind . Let start to debate what table games had played the Jesuits .

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Roy

You are right . pictures of the gold bars or gold vein are the best evidences . But is not stupid to show pictures like these from a spot which is in a potecred land ? These pictures are evidences of an outlaw work and could exist consequences . Is worth to take the risk ? Would you have posted them ? A smart person , never take pictures of an outlaw work which could be used against him . What happened if in your return a forest ranger have checked your photos ?

Now , I don't say how I am/was outlaw , just explain .

Are you suggesting that the ranger has a warrant or has the constitution been suspended there abouts?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

So if you discover the LDM, it is a better idea to try to establish a claim on the basis of the minerals alone and never mind muddying the water with LDM association, that could only bring in artifact complications. Right

 

[cactusjumper]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe a mine would be acceptable for a treasure trove permit in the Supe's.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Roy

I can't have a mining claim in USA . I am not American citizen . If I was , for sure I would try for a permit to mine .

I believe the Jesuits have hidden some gold ( a galleon ) in the Superstitions . The place is depicted in some maps . I gave an example few posts before but have ignored . Never mind . Let start to debate what table games had played the Jesuits .

Well, actually you could if you try to immigrate:

WHO CAN STAKE A CLAIM?--United States citizens who have reached the age of discretion, under the law of the state of residence; or legal immigrants who have declared their intention to become a citizen; or a corporation organized under the laws of any state may locate a mining claim. The government considers a corporation the same as a U.S. citizen. An agent may locate a mining claim on behalf of a claimant. A claimant may hold any number of claims or sites.

From Mining Claim Information - Minerals & Mining - BLM Arizona

Welcome to the land of milk and honey !

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe a mine would be acceptable for a treasure trove permit in the Supe's.

Joe Ribaudo

Exactly. Skip the treasure trove and play the mineralized angle.

 

[cactusjumper]

Exactly. Skip the treasure trove and play the mineralized angle.

The Superstition Wilderness Area has been removed from mineral exploration. Check with Scott Wood for the official word.

J. Scott Wood
Forest Archaeologist / Heritage Program Manager
Tonto National Forest
2324 E. McDowell Road, Phoenix, AZ 85006
voice: (602) 225-5231 FAX: (602) 225-5295
[email protected]


Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Conceptualized

I don't want to immigrate . I am very well here .

For the moment , to claim a famous mine or cache in the Wilderness area would been just for glory and not for profit .

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

The Superstition Wilderness Area has been removed from mineral exploration. Check with Scott Wood for the official word.

J. Scott Wood
Forest Archaeologist / Heritage Program Manager
Tonto National Forest
2324 E. McDowell Road, Phoenix, AZ 85006
voice: (602) 225-5231 FAX: (602) 225-5295
[email protected]


Joe Ribaudo

Right. I understand that. But there has been a lot of discussion about the exception for mineral finds and the legal arguments that could be made.. The letters I saw of him about some guys claims skirted the mineral issue and were all about artifacts. Minerals in place are no ones artifacts.

 

[cactusjumper]

Right. I understand that. But there has been a lot of discussion about the exception for mineral finds and the legal arguments that could be made.. The letters I saw of him about some guys claims skirted the mineral issue and were all about artifacts. Minerals in place are no ones artifacts.

Good luck with that line of reasoning.

[MINING

Mining is any activity that attempts to extract minerals (which are valuable and locatable) from their natural setting. No mining of any type (whether for recreation and/or profit) is allowed except with an approved Notice of Intent and/or Plan of Operations for activity on a legal claim with valid existing rights. New mining claims can no longer be filed on designated Wilderness Areas. The Wilderness Act of 1964 allowed mining claims to be filed until January 1, 1984, at which time all Wilderness Areas were closed to new mineral entry. Subsequently- designated Wilderness Areas were closed to mineral entry upon enactment of the law creating them.]

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/specialplaces/?cid=fsbdev3_018726



Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Joe

Somewhere I have read about a " window " in this rule . If I could remember says how is possible " if will be worked in a crude way ".

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Conceptualized

I don't want to immigrate . I am very well here .

For the moment , to claim a famous mine or cache in the Wilderness area would been just for glory and not for profit .

Well then just blurt it out and receive the glory

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

Somewhere I have read about a " window " in this rule . If I could remember says how is possible " if will be worked in a crude way ".

Marius,

Scott Wood is the man with the official answers.


J. Scott Wood
Forest Archaeologist / Heritage Program Manager
Tonto National Forest
2324 E. McDowell Road, Phoenix, AZ 85006
voice: (602) 225-5231 FAX: (602) 225-5295
[email protected]

This conversation belongs in the LDM Forum..........

Joe Ribaudo

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Good luck with that line of reasoning.

[MINING

Mining is any activity that attempts to extract minerals (which are valuable and locatable) from their natural setting. No mining of any type (whether for recreation and/or profit) is allowed except with an approved Notice of Intent and/or Plan of Operations for activity on a legal claim with valid existing rights. New mining claims can no longer be filed on designated Wilderness Areas. The Wilderness Act of 1964 allowed mining claims to be filed until January 1, 1984, at which time all Wilderness Areas were closed to new mineral entry. Subsequently- designated Wilderness Areas were closed to mineral entry upon enactment of the law creating them.]


Tonto National Forest - Special Places



Joe Ribaudo

I am going to go way out on a limb here and guess you have seen the argument before. I know I have seen it on the forums some-wheres and I haven't been looking that long.

Since the creation of the wilderness area was justified on lack of mineralization, proving mineralization should be a legal argument for an exception. I suppose that wont be tested until someone finds minerals worth arguing about - like, lets say, those elusive million ounces of gold

 

[cactusjumper]

Nethrlandr,

I see. You are trying to use logic with the government. Had much experience dealing with bureaucracies?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo