JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[UncleMatt]

Has the mission changed?

That depends on if you believe that oath that was posted is genuine or not. If it is genuine, then yes the mission has changed since that time.

 

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[sailaway]

I believe the best place to look is in their own publications.
Twenty-two Jesuits Pronounce Final Vows
What I did notice was none of these Jesuits are the "Black Wearing" Jesuits. Perhaps they are here to disguise the real Order?
http://www.thinkjesuit.org/home/faq/
http://www.sj2014.net/1/category/reflection/1.html
http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2013/03/economist-explains-who-are-jesuits-exactly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit_conspiracy_theories
http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/Illuminati-Jesuits(1521499).htm

There are 3 kind of vows a Jesuit takes and the one quoted is for the "Black" Jesuit
http://books.google.com/books?id=pk...ases to final vows of a Black jesuit&f=false

this one is good but the first page is blank so scroll down:
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta...les/the-society-of-jesus-who-are-the-jesuits/

The Jesuits were referred to as “Blackrobes” by the natives of North America during the missionary period, owing to their distinct black cassocks. In recent times, the Jesuits in U.S. are accustomed to use the Roman collar along with the ordinary black clothes of priests.
http://www.innovateus.net/innopedia/what-history-jesuit-order

It should not matter what they do today. The question is what they were doing back when they were in Sonora and Northern Mexico, and the Topic of this forum of wealth?

"When the Spanish and Portuguese empires conquered the Americas, many indigenous Indians were plunged into the familiar tale of Old World Order slavery and exploitation. Jesuit missionaries, under the guidance of the Illuminati, tried to help the Indians. They managed to persuade the King of Spain to grant a vast region to their care, in return for generous annual payments to the King's coffers.

The Jesuits helped the Indians to create advanced societies. The Reductions had law and order, schools, hospitals, and free public services for the poor. There was no death penalty. The working day was set at 6 hours, compared with the 12-14 hours of the average European worker. The Indians worked the communal land and all produce was fairly divided among them. They were skilled in sculpture and woodcarving, and started making watches and musical instruments. In their free time, the Indians enjoyed music, dance, games, sport and reading.

The Jesuits protected the Indians from European slave-hunters, to the annoyance of the slavers who thought the Jesuits were bad for business and potentially subversive. They worried about what would happen if the Jesuit missions were set up everywhere, including in Europe. Slowly but surely, the Jesuits' missions were perceived - correctly - as a radical threat to the power of the Old World Order.

The Old World Order despised the Jesuits' resistance to slave raids, and the autonomy and economic success of the Reductions. They despised the good education and high standards of health care enjoyed by the Indians. They despised the Indians' lack of subservience to nobles, kings and emperors. They despised these jungle utopias where primitive Indians were turned into far more than noble savages: they became clever, skilled members of communities that were not based on power, riches and status."
http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/Illuminati-Jesuits(1521499).htm

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

That depends on if you believe that oath that was posted is genuine or not. If it is genuine, then yes the mission has changed since that time.

Since the oath, not of topic. From way back when to the oath. When did the oath originate?

 

[gollum]

Conceptualized and Deducer,

Maybe you don't understand how things work scientifically speaking. Claims need proof. You presented the oath like it is a factual thing. While it may be (and I am not arguing that point), for Deducer to say that Joe should provide proof that the oath is not authentic is bogus. The person presenting the oath should show that they are presenting something which is authentic.

If I said that the previous Pope was a Nazi to some uninformed Catholic, they would likely want to fight me. If I said that the previous Pope was a Nazi, and showed a picture of little Ratzinger all dressed up in his Hitler Jugend Uniform, then there is no argument.

Just my two cents.

While I personally believe that the Jesuit Oath is likely authentic, I have to also be intellectually honest and say that it is possible that its' not authentic.

Deducer,

Some of the Temporal Coadjutors are known. A couple were even well known. I believe that a certain number of them may have been brought over to the New World surreptitiously. The unknown Coadjutors would likely have been Politicians, Police, Soldiers, and Mining Engineers. The miners, so that they could work and own mines that the Jesuits weren't officially allowed to do. The Politicians, Police, and Military so that they would know all the secret plotting going on against the Order, and could give them a heads up if anything bad was about to happen (that is part of the reason I believe the Jesuits had time to hide their wealth).

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Just want to point out that Jesuit Oath was indeed entered into the record of Congress. Also, the secret "constitutions" of the Jesuits were once brought to light in France due to a lawsuit involving the Order, and this set of documents created a very large scandal in France at that time for what they contained.

What ever the Jesuit Oaths and constitutions may be today, they were quite egregious to many people when they came to light in the 1750s. I would suggest a book for anyone interested:
A History of the Jesuits: To which is Prefixed a Reply to Mr. Dallas's ... - John Poynder - Google Books

 

[deducer]

While I personally believe that the Jesuit Oath is likely authentic, I have to also be intellectually honest and say that it is possible that its' not authentic.
Mike

Which is more or less what I mentioned:

Nobody seems to be able to prove anything either way, whether such a document exist or if the report even exists, so probably a dead end inquiry.

Deducer,

Some of the Temporal Coadjutors are known. A couple were even well known. I believe that a certain number of them may have been brought over to the New World surreptitiously. The unknown Coadjutors would likely have been Politicians, Police, Soldiers, and Mining Engineers. The miners, so that they could work and own mines that the Jesuits weren't officially allowed to do. The Politicians, Police, and Military so that they would know all the secret plotting going on against the Order, and could give them a heads up if anything bad was about to happen (that is part of the reason I believe the Jesuits had time to hide their wealth).

Mike

As far as a heads-up that possibly led to the transformation of what hitherto may have simply been an "offshore banking account" (as a response to potential native uprising on a major scale) into an accelerated concealment project(s), we are aware of at least two false starts as far as expulsions, one of which was as early as the beginning of the 1740's:



So it's fair to say that any concealment operations the Jesuits undertook was years in the making.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Which is more or less what I mentioned:





As far as a heads-up that possibly led to the transformation of what hitherto may have simply been an "offshore banking account" (as a response to potential native uprising on a major scale) into an accelerated concealment project(s), we are aware of at least two false starts as far as expulsions, one of which was as early as the beginning of the 1740's:

View attachment 986452

So it's fair to say that any concealment operations the Jesuits undertook was years in the making.

Can I ask what is the reference for the typed photographic? Thank you!

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

...snip ...
(that is part of the reason I believe the Jesuits had time to hide their wealth).

Mike

Not to harp against your post, but to use it as a springboard.

To what end hide wealth? Until when? If indeed wealth was hidden and not yet recovered in the Americas somewhere they have probably lost ownership/title to it. Poor strategy if you ask me.

 

[deducer]

Can I ask what is the reference for the typed photographic? Thank you!

No problem.

The Opatas, in search of a Sonoran People By David A. Yetmen, page 156.

 

[deducer]

To what end hide wealth? Until when? If indeed wealth was hidden and not yet recovered in the Americas somewhere they have probably lost ownership/title to it. Poor strategy if you ask me.

This is the interesting question here, and one that I think is very misunderstood.

You call it wealth, and I am sure most people on this board would call it treasure, but I think it is paramount to understand that the Jesuits didn't really see it that way. To them, it was only a means by which to fulfill Ignatius's vision:

From Nentvig's Rudo Ensaya:

One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church .

So to that end, the Jesuits did possess an extraordinary amount of "wealth" as you would put it, and adorned their churches (missions) likewise.

It is very plausible to believe that they had known for quite some time that their expulsion was coming, although I believe they didn't know how extreme it would be. They were certainly not expecting very harsh treatment and/or deportation to Spain. However, they did know, and so they had some time.

Understanding how they perceived the "wealth," is IMHO, very important in order to understand the extent of their labor in concealing their assets, and how complex and ingenious the concealments were. I strong believed that they perceived this intense labor as merely serving the will of God by living in Christ, and "suffering" as Christ did.

Only when one truly understands what this means, can one realize to what extent they went to conceal what they had, and how much they concealed, and the sheer ingenuity they used to leave clues as to where it lies.

As someone said to me, "you have to think like a Jesuit!"

 

[releventchair]

Chalices,silver baptismal shell are mentioned. The native silversmith mentioned a while back in a link working in a mission needed raw materials. But a chalice or silver baptismal shell would yes, to me constitute treasure. Where did the materials for well adorned come from in records?Spanish craftsman,or imported or domestic ? The silversmith native mentioned in an earlier link needed raw material. Surely it was at hand with mines around and crafting it for adornments would justify its possession.
When as a teen when making bar cheese at work and needing a couple cups of beer for a great bowl of it, a reason existed to have a pitcher of beer in the cooler all shift,(despite an occasional refill).

1. Founding a Jesuit Mission Near Tucson, 1694?1756

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

This is the interesting question here, and one that I think is very misunderstood.

You call it wealth, and I am sure most people on this board would call it treasure, but I think it is paramount to understand that the Jesuits didn't really see it that way. To them, it was only a means by which to fulfill Ignatius's vision:

From Nentvig's Rudo Ensaya:

So to that end, the Jesuits did possess an extraordinary amount of "wealth" as you would put it, and adorned their churches (missions) likewise.

It is very plausible to believe that they had known for quite some time that their expulsion was coming, although I believe they didn't know how extreme it would be. They were certainly not expecting very harsh treatment and/or deportation to Spain. However, they did know, and so they had some time.

Understanding how they perceived the "wealth," is IMHO, very important in order to understand the extent of their labor in concealing their assets, and how complex and ingenious the concealments were. I strong believed that they perceived this intense labor as merely serving the will of God by living in Christ, and "suffering" as Christ did.

Only when one truly understands what this means, can one realize to what extent they went to conceal what they had, and how much they concealed, and the sheer ingenuity they used to leave clues as to where it lies.

As someone said to me, "you have to think like a Jesuit!"

Not sure how the question is very misunderstood, despite that it was in response to Gollum's use of wealth. Why would it have to be so tricky? Either they trust their brotherern or not. Either treasures exist or not. Thinking like a jesuit is not a problem for me. I was schooled by them. Fortunately I survived and escaped. The scars will always be there.

 

[Oroblanco]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote

To what end hide wealth? Until when? If indeed wealth was hidden and not yet recovered in the Americas somewhere they have probably lost ownership/title to it. Poor strategy if you ask me.

I am not speaking for our mutual amigo Gollum, but think your point is as to why the Jesuits would hide wealth - wealth means power, and they did not want to "share" any of their booty with the Spanish royal authorities. Nor with the Portuguese, French etc for that matter, and it is to be used for their main goal which is to establish a global monarchy under their head. Remember what they were founded for - to counter the horrifying rise of Protestantism and secularism, the decay of the Papal rule as a state form of government. They were and are, the "militant" Order of priests, not just kindly fathers looking to save souls but have always been heavily involved in political controversies including inciting rebellions and even assassinations of the heads of state. As you know, politics means money and lots of it, to buy influence and friends, or to destroy and reduce enemies.

Unlike all the other Orders operating in New Spain, the Jesuits had managed to get exemptions from paying property taxes and numerous other privileges; the Spanish royal authorities could SEE that the Jesuits were in fact amassing wealth in astonishing quantities, and yet they could NOT see it getting shipped OUT of the Spanish territories. The logical conclusion reached by the king and his advisers was that the Jesuits were massing treasure IN Mexico, for what purposes they could not know, but they did get wind of the Jesuits plan to betray the whole of the Spanish possessions to the Dutch, and when Jesuits were implicated in riots and an attempted assassination in Spain and Portugal, it was too much. You know the rest of that story - the Jesuits were rounded up, the authorities searched for the concealed treasures and (mostly) failed to find it.

To some people the fact that the Spanish failed to find much, "proves" there never was any to start with. Considering that the discovery of just ONE cache of treasure in Brazil was worth many millions of dollars, I get the opposite conclusion.

This idea of massing wealth and hiding it may not seem like the smartest strategy to you, but the Jesuits did not necessarily look at things the way you do. In hiding their wealth, they fully expected to one day return, and retrieve it. They have been allowed back into many of the countries they got thrown out of over the centuries, in some cases they got thrown out again, but they do not look at it in the terms of a few years or even the lifetime of one man, but in centuries. The Jesuits also hedged their bets by hiding a LOT of money in Dutch banks, and in Belgium as well, where they thought it was safe from the Spanish or even the Papal authorities if and when the hammer should fall on them. Don't make the mistake of trying to reason it out by your own logic, we are talking about people whom were committed, "true believers" types, whom were working for a Holy goal etc not on the same points of logic that you or I might use. I won't use the term "fanatics" to describe these Jesuits, but it is not that far off from accurate either.

On where these valuable "decorations" of the various Jesuit missions originated, some items came direct from Europe, some even from China and Asia, and some were manufactured locally - there is an excellent study online done on the Jesuit missions to the Tarahumara at:
http://www.udel.edu/ArtHistory/ARTH435/Bargellini.pdf

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I highly recommend reading up on the Jesuits and from both sides, including the Jesuit apologists and the "enemies" of the Jesuits, to reach your own conclusions.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Just want to point out that Jesuit Oath was indeed entered into the record of Congress. Also, the secret "constitutions" of the Jesuits were once brought to light in France due to a lawsuit involving the Order, and this set of documents created a very large scandal in France at that time for what they contained.

What ever the Jesuit Oaths and constitutions may be today, they were quite egregious to many people when they came to light in the 1750s. I would suggest a book for anyone interested:
A History of the Jesuits: To which is Prefixed a Reply to Mr. Dallas's ... - John Poynder - Google Books

Roy,

Volume I or II? I have II, but did not feel the need to invest in I. Did I miss something of importance

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

PS sorry but I forgot about it, there was a certain amount of secrecy and restriction of information even within the Jesuits themselves; as one put it, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, and if the General (of the Order) says that black is white and night is day, a Jesuit will accept and believe that white is black, day is night. It was (and as far as I can determine remains) a MILITARY type of Order, with a command structure from top-down, all authority in the hands of the General except what he allows his lieutenants to wield, and even in that case, retains the ability to instantly dismiss and/or recall anyone in the entire Order at his word alone.

The book posted above explains it pretty well; and as to Coadjutors their very existence was to do the things as extra "hands" for the padres, frequently in charge of "temporal" aspects which included mining, agriculture etc. These fellows would be the men literally working at the mines, though for ALL commerce, the padres at the missions had the final word.

I know we have covered much of this previously, just trying to sum it up for any of our newer members trying to catch up on this topic. And please do not take my word on any of this, DO go and look it up for yourselves; the history of the Jesuits is most interesting indeed.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Volume I or II? I have II, but did not feel the need to invest in I. Did I miss something of importance

Take care,

Joe

That is Volume II, no need to purchase it you can download it from that link if that is more convenient than pulling the book out. I believe it is in the "anti-Jesuit" class but does explain fairly well, without going into details on mining however.

 

[releventchair]

Oroblanco,Thank you for the link. Between patrons from anywhere and network reaching Europe and Mexico city there,s less dependence on what can be crafted locally than I thought. Paintings as mentioned on occasion seem valued higher than supposed as well as having a source. The summery suggesting those network ties shifted also, leaves a lot of long reaching contacts.My earliest interest in the Jesuits were naturally localized here in the great lakes region. Thinking there presence as strictly of an Evangelical and frugal nature the account of items alleged to have been hidden being only Church furnishings was enough till reading accounts of greater regional nature. They were in the range of great copper resources here. Not the tunneling required else where but pit type,fire and water used and great veins and chunks. http://frankjhutton.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-ontonagon-boulder.html and evidence of its being procured long before their arrival. Too, silver occurred in copper at times. With a possible world wide network and their libraries,now I wonder if converts were while important secondary to the choice of region or if it was coincidence only.With French interests in the region and fur trade making it hard to get people to stay in a colony and scratch in the dirt for vegetables, the allure of wealth from other resources than the requiring consent fur trade and then often having to be an engage leaving some one else holding the lions share of profit would have had left precious metals alluring to many, even the missions? Mention of Jusuit knowlage in advance..http://web2.geo.msu.edu/geogmich/Ontonagon_boulder.html

 

[deducer]

Not sure how the question is very misunderstood, despite that it was in response to Gollum's use of wealth. Why would it have to be so tricky? Either they trust their brotherern or not. Either treasures exist or not. Thinking like a jesuit is not a problem for me. I was schooled by them. Fortunately I survived and escaped. The scars will always be there.

Not speaking for Gollum, and I'm sure he'll be along shortly to give his answer to your question.

By "brotherern" did you mean "brethren"? If so, I am sure that they probably trusted their own, but most certainly not the Spanish or any other factions that they thought were contrary to their world views. As Roy said, they were endorsed by the papal who saw them as an anti-thesis to the growing protestant movement, and they so morphed into a militant entity (RME).

I'm sorry you had a nasty experience with the Jesuits. Would you care to share more? I'm curious about their methods of teaching. I surmise they did not so much teach you to be independent and to think critically for yourself, as to mold you into something that was merely Jesuit-compliant.

 

[deducer]

That is Volume II, no need to purchase it you can download it from that link if that is more convenient than pulling the book out. I believe it is in the "anti-Jesuit" class but does explain fairly well, without going into details on mining however.

I downloaded a copy. Thanks for posting the link.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[The book posted above explains it pretty well; and as to Coadjutors their very existence was to do the things as extra "hands" for the padres, frequently in charge of "temporal" aspects which included mining, agriculture etc. These fellows would be the men literally working at the mines, though for ALL commerce, the padres at the missions had the final word]

I assume there is a source for the highlighted portion above.

Thanks,

Joe