JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[sailaway]

Evidence of Early Spanish Mining
Ron Quinn account of hidden Jesuit treasures in Southern Arizona
Spanish Jesuit treasures
The Spanish discovered gold at the "El Plomo" Mine named for the lead it contained in 1687. Its name was later changed to the "Alto" Mine and was in production till 1933.
The Spanish mined the Oro Blanco district where the Montana Mine, aka Ruby Mine is for gold and silver. The mine was ranked third in output for Arizona for silver in 1933 and was the leader in lead and zinc in the 1930's
The Jesuits originally worked the Salero Mine in the 18th centry.
The Mowry Mine boasted a large silver-lead deposit in the Patagonia Mountains. Originally worked by the Jesuits during the Spanish era, the mine was acquired by Sylvester Mowry in 1859. Peak production cleared over $4,000.00 weekly.
Source: Southeastern Arizona Mining Towns By William Ascarza
Notice 5.14:
BTW will be gathering samples this week from the Mina Virgon.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Upgraded Night Vision Monocular Digital Infrared Monocular Telescope for 100% Darkness with 8X Zoom - Grab it through Amazon!

[cactusjumper]

Anyone know just how valuable silver ore slag is? How much would you need to make it profitable to haul it away?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

Mercury serves other purposes outside of mining. I have no idea why he was carrying the flask. I won't ascribe motives to Father Och.

Not to the Jesuits. There is no record of any other use of mercury by the Jesuits.

In the context of Fr. Och's travel reports and the frequency with which he brings up gold, silver, or mining in general, IMO it is pretty safe to ascribe a motive as to why Fr. Och was carrying a flask of mercury around with him.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Not to the Jesuits. There is no record of any other use of mercury by the Jesuits.

In the context of Fr. Och's travel reports and the frequency with which he brings up gold, silver, or mining in general, IMO it is pretty safe to ascribe a motive as to why Fr. Och was carrying a flask of mercury around with him.

"There is no record" is a bit of a reach. Why not say "I don't know of ..." or some such?

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

CN is right on with his comment. Since none of us know everything about the Jesuits, it would be more realistic to hold back on your conclusions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

"There is no record" is a bit of a reach. Why not say "I don't know of ..." or some such?

Feel free to demonstrate any proven instance of Jesuits in the New World using mercury for anything not related to mining or metals.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

CN is right on with his comment. Since none of us know everything about the Jesuits, it would be more realistic to hold back on your conclusions.

Take care,

Joe

Feel free to prove me wrong on the use of mercury by the Jesuits.

 

[releventchair]

Feel free to prove me wrong on the use of mercury by the Jesuits.

Not finding another use mentioned yet ,but...

https://www.google.com/search?q=pot...7.10753j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

EHP ? Mercury Production and Use in Colonial Andean Silver Production: Emissions and Health Implications

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper posted:

The foundry at Mission San Juan Capistrano was the first to introduce the Indians to the Iron Age. The blacksmith used the mission's forges (California's first) to smelt and fashion iron into everything from basic tools and hardware (such as nails) to crosses, gates, hinges, even cannon for mission defense. Iron was one commodity in particular which the mission relied solely on trade to acquire, as the missionaries had neither the know-how nor the technology to mine and process metal ores."

I am positive that this extract is in error, forges do not smelt iron, smelting is making the metal into a liquid state, not softening for working as in a forge. I would suggest to look up the differences between smelting and forging, two very different practices for different purposes. A foundry on the other hand would be for smelting and casting.

I fail to see how this explains the string of silver mines and a few gold mines, the proof of the casting of bells, piles of slag, and NO copper mines whatsoever. Virtually all copper ores have some silver and often gold in with the copper, are you taking the position that these much more valuable metals would have been allowed to slop off with the dross (slag) and wasted, just to get bells cast? Where did this copper come from, that it produced so much slag as to produce mounds, unless it came from a mine or mines plural? Your views on this are very hard to understand. If you are saying that the bells thus produced, came from DONATED metals, then why would there be SO much slag? Shouldn't the bells be much more silver and gold than copper? Can you show any kind of importation of hundreds of pounds of copper, that could then be explained as the source for the bells? Or do you contend that the bell casting must have been the work of some itinerant, mystery Spaniards or perhaps far-ranging early American prospectors, using the mission grounds for their bell-casting work? This is getting a bit ridiculous don't you think?

If I seem to be a bit harsh in the way I have been terming things, in part it is a result of seeing many hours of research, numerous posts including support for the Jesuits owning mines, that they were smelting at several missions, even slag turning up in the very walls of the mission churches, only to see after over 130 pages of debate, this summed up as "evidence" in quotes, and another of our skeptics term the arguments as "fallacious". Sorry if I must disagree, that the Director of the Mint, governor of Arizona and geologists of the US Geological Survey are not the type of witness testimony that I would shrug off so easily as you fellows do. Neither do I dismiss the Catholic study or Catholic bishop whom both stated the Jesuits owned silver mines, as if the product of such mines would be for making a few candlesticks or saddle decorations.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions - certainly father Polzer, Burrus, and others would heartily approve; for my part I have no faith in these modern revisionists and apologists. In general, when researching any historical topic, the oldest, and thus closest to events and persons, are usually the most reliable, having less chances for errors and falsehoods to have crept in, not to mention the issues of fresh memories versus stale ones. A large majority of the older sources state the Jesuits, and Franciscans as well, were mining silver in Arizona, along with gold; even father Nentvig's own work lists mines of the various missions. Precious metals mines produce precious metals, and the results were visible to many early visitors to Arizona, in the mounds of slag and the $40,000 solid silver altar at San Xavier; which is in itself a lost treasure for no one knows where it is today. The Jesuit Order was massively wealthy when they were expelled, and suppressed, and yet most of their money, silver, gold was never found. The topic at hand is Jesuit Treasures, Are They Real? If you still are SO convinced there was nothing to it, that it was all negligible, etc I have no problems with your beliefs. However the next time I hear the topic of Jesuit treasures being ridiculed at a get together, as I have in past, don't expect that I will remain silent.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS as to the value of silver in slag - some people, myself included, would not turn up a nose at hauling some slag to a smelter for easy cash. The price would not have to be that high, for rather simple effort and profit. I posted what information there is on the values in the slag - 8 ounces of silver per ton - which would amount to around $160 a ton today; I know of several businesses that run at a profit on far less value per ton of materials hauled. No need for another thought on the matter for you however, just figure that Dr Wrightson and the other witnesses who reported seeing those mounds, and the archaeologists who found two new ones near Guevavi, were all just making up stories to sell treasure books and get rich that way.

 

[gollum]

Dang I hate to leave for a couple of days and the thread takes off. HAHAHA

First,

When I posted the "These bars Should Not Exist" version of the story (in 2007), I had not met the man yet. I hate to tell you this, but his name is NOT Bob. His initials are RQ. That's as far as I'll go with that. Here is the man himself and I while I was making those first ever hi res scans of his pics:



I know him quite well, and at one time, I was going to revive the old "Treasure Hunter's Confidential" Newsletter (until old owners started chiming in wanting money and such which killed the deal). RQ's story was one I wanted to have in the first edition. I was introduced to him through friends from Hollywood and Tumacacori at his place in Tucson. I was the first person he had EVER let make hi resolution scans of his old 35mm pics. Over the years, he had lost some of the old originals, so in place of the missing ones, I used the B&W versions from the "Treasure!" Magazine Article. I also have his handwritten version of the story (which is what I placed on my website). The 82 Pounds Story on my website can be considered the ONLY true and "from the horse's mouth" version. That, I give you my word on.

To your questions:

1. Agreed enough

2. Not overrated at all. When I say exceedingly rich, I mean that according to today's standards the pay streak would have been exceedingly rich in raw ore. Several books on the subject repeat the same thing, that the Spanish were lazy (I think that was in Rudo Ensayo), where it mentions if a mineral vein wasn't very high grade, the Spanish would ignore it. Also, several other books on the subject talk about it from monetary standpoint. That since the refining processes were so crude at the time, it would cost more to work a lower grade mine than would be gotten from processing the ore, so they left them alone. Those mines (by today's standards) would be called BONANZA MINES! HAHAHA With the Jesuits' Power in the area, even IF the Military did know about it, I doubt they would have ratted them out. The Spanish Prospectors might have never found much of what is there. The Jesuits had a "foot in the door" so to speak, because they were closest of all the people to the Indians. Indians were more likely to confess to Jesuits the locations of rich ledges of gold or silver, than to any Spaniard. If anybody doubts how much power and influence they had in the area, one has only to research the the story of the year spent in jail by then GENERAL Manje. Here is a good version of the story (but since it is from the Kino Heritage Society naturally Padre Kino is made to look heroic):

http://padrekino.com/kino-s-legacy/.../chapter-12-general-manje-writes-report-1705/

A SPANISH GENERAL, that was also very close with Padre Kino, got thrown on a donkey and made to ride 500 miles to jail for merely saying that the Jesuits were spending more time with the Indians than the Spanish. Tell General Manje that the Jesuits didn't have power and influence!

3. Actually, NOBODY just gets "handed" the Coadjutor Certificate. A coadjutor takes three of the four main vows of the Order (including The Vow of OBEDIENCE). The fourth is only taken when a Jesuit reaches the rank of Priest (which initiates most are unable to reach). There are people that are friendly with the Order, and remember, 99% of all the people in Spanish Colonial Times were Roman Catholic.

4. Agreed

5. Disagree here vehemently! HAHAHA In reading the Jesuit Priests' Journals, you can get a very good idea of the wealth of the Order. Talking about how well appointed the Churches were. Silver and Gold Church Vestments and adornments. Silver statues of Mary. Etc Etc Etc. Those are the words of the Jesuit Fathers themselves that had witnessed them personally. On the night of 25-26 June 1767, when the soldiers swooped in at the orders of the King of Spain and arrested all the Jesuits, they made thorough searches of every nook and cranny of EVERY Jesuit Cabacera, Colegio, Church, and Mission. The ONLY things they found were a few thousand pesos, and all the things that couldn't have been hidden (property, horses, cattle, sheep, etc). None of the gold or silver was found. Father Och's Journal even tells of Spanish soldiers diving into the "cell pool" of the place looking for loot. NOTHING! When Fray Serra OFP was given the task of founding the California Missions, he was told he could go into the old Jesuit Missions and Churches, and take what he needed. His list of what he found is available if you look for it. The wealth described by the Padres in their Journals was not there. It all just up and vanished right before the 25th of June 1767. Read the translation of the Molina Document:

Directions - year 1598 to 1658 - these Directions pertain to Tumacácori: The Mine of Tumacacori
called the Virgen of Guadalupe. It is a league and a half, beginning at the main door of the temple on the south. From the
Waters of San Ramón measured to the left (it is) 1800 rods to the north. Some 1200 rods before reaching the mine is a black
rock marked with a chisel with these marks on the bottom of the rock . 1200 rods from the cross is the treasure. This is
what the writing means. Some 20 rods in front of the rock is a small monument. In a southwest direction from the mine
are two rock outcroppings that were knocked down over the mine without more jarring than the placement of gunpowder in
the cracks of the rocks, leaving the track obliterated forever. Going over the rocks no one would know
where this place is. Inside the mine is a room that measures 50 rods square and in this place
is the treasure of our missions. In the middle of the room is the mouth of the mine, the treasure being (both)
inside and outside of it: There are 2650 loads of sealed silver and 905 of gold, and there are 40
million in (unsealed) silver. The gold was brought from the Sierra de Guachapa in the vicinity of Tubac: continue
forward in the same southerly direction.
Some three leagues from the mine of Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe what is called "Pass of the Janos."
In a direction to the south from here, an arroyo starts that empties into the Santa Cruz River. The mine is to the left of the pass.
Below the pass are 12 ore crushers and 12 smelters. The mine has one tunnel of 300 rods in length and the tunnel
has the name of La Purísima Concepción engraved on it with a chisel. The tunnel runs north and at 20 rods a small tunnel of
one hundred rods intersects it, running west. The ore is yellow - ore that is half silver and a fifth part gold. There are some slag
pits fifty rods from the door of the mine going north. They found chunks of pure silver
weighing from one pound to 5 arrobas (125 pounds). This mine is sealed by a copper door that has some enormous handles.
This copper was brought from the Sierra de Guachapa in the vicinity of Tubac and smelted in Tuma-
cácori, and the door was carried to the mine on a sledge by oxen. The year 1658. They worked and covered it
in 1658 as recorded in the book of works of the mission.
It is three leagues from the mine of La Purísima Concepción to the mine of Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe. About halfway
down the road in the same direction is what is called The Mine of the Opatas. This mine has one tunnel of four
hundred rods and running south along the same course. The ore is mixed with pebbles and after three hundred rods is
cut off by a trench. A very large tableland runs from the mouth of the mine toward the setting sun. On its west side
is a very large canyon ending on the south side. It has a bore mark that is a half-rod deep. Standing on the south side,
you can see the mark on the other side of the canyon. Going one league north from this mark is the Mine of the
Opatas of Tumacácori. This is the mark. To the west on the other side of the sierra is the mine of Nuestra Señora de
Guadalupe. It is marked by Father S--- R--- on the 12th of the month of December in 1518. This mine was found by a =

I highlighted a couple of things in that script. We think that "sealed" silver and gold mean church vestments and adornments that were worked and had a seal stamped onto them. Unsealed we think, means bars. Those that don't trust the Molina Document: If you read back some pages, you might catch a reference to a man that had a mappa and a page that described how to get to the mines. This description was from the 1860s. I think that is very likely the first mentioning of the Molina Document and map. Compare that inventory with what was found in Rio de Janiero in 1891:



Very large amounts of silver and gold in both cases. If this story was just in some Australian Newspaper, I wouldn't put a ton of faith in it, but if something like the Canada Law Review saw fit to include it, I give it a little more juice.

Like I said, we will very much disagree on this subject. There are enough people running around right now in all those areas that were then desert, to notice a bunch of folks dragging tons of loot out of mountains. HAHAHA My guess is that whatever they left hidden in 1767 is mostly still hidden. Like I said, the Church doesn't see time like we humans do. The Church is an organization that has been around for almost 2,000 years. It will probably be around for another 2,000. If it needs to let a few hundred million lie moldering in the ground for a few hundred years to keep their record clean, it is no loss to them.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe mercury was used as a medicinal

for exaple if one was constipated one was supposed to talke a mouthful and dnn judicily jump around if it didn't

take i9mmediate effect


Gold And \silver were the worst things that could be addeded to a bell , there were other toal controls.

Long story on the Indians nin that the Jesuits had them construct

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe mercury was used as a medicinal

for exaple if one was constipated one was supposed to talke a mouthful and dnn judicily jump around if it didn't

take i9mmediate effect


Gold And \silver were the worst things that could be addeded to a bell , there were other toal controls.

Long story on the Indians nin that the Jesuits had them construct

Don Jose,

I am, of course, aware that mercury was used right up to the twentieth century for medicinal purposes. I know that the Jesuits were familiar with mercury. They were also aware of the dangers of using it to refine silver ore as early as 1600.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

PS as to the value of silver in slag - some people, myself included, would not turn up a nose at hauling some slag to a smelter for easy cash. The price would not have to be that high, for rather simple effort and profit. I posted what information there is on the values in the slag - 8 ounces of silver per ton - which would amount to around $160 a ton today; I know of several businesses that run at a profit on far less value per ton of materials hauled. No need for another thought on the matter for you however, just figure that Dr Wrightson and the other witnesses who reported seeing those mounds, and the archaeologists who found two new ones near Guevavi, were all just making up stories to sell treasure books and get rich that way.

Roy,

Having held slag in my hands, it did not seem that heavy. How big of a pile do you think it would take to make a ton?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Having held slag in my hands, it did not seem that heavy. How big of a pile do you think it would take to make a ton?

Take care,

Joe

Slag varies a great deal in weight; from 65 to well over 200 pounds per cubic foot. A ton would not take up a very large space. Besides, slag would only result from processing ore from mines, which you have stated

Since I have seen no credible evidence that it was silver or gold ore that was smelted, I don't feel it's important to the subject, at least not to me.

If the mystery people casting copper bells were using imported copper and donated jewelry, there would be very little slag as there would be very little impurities to form slag. At any rate, two large wheelbarrows of the heavier slag would be over a ton, or a bit over five wheelbarrows (contractor size) if the slag were at the light end. Does that sound like a large amount to you?

If you have ever purchased a truck load of gravel, which runs within the same ranges that slag does for specific gravity (weight per cubic foot, around 100 pounds per) you know that even ten tons of it is not impressive when dumped on the ground. I would point out that one expert stated that if noticeable silver is found in the slag, it is evidence of silver smelting, and the ONLY info on the slag "allegedly" hauled away and sold was that it had some eight ounces per ton in silver, or far above the expert's stated minimal 110 ppm.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS why is it that none of our Jesuit sources mention the bell casting operations in Arizona, not even at Tayopa, whose bells became renowned over much of the west, even ending up with one in Alaska? Neither do our Franciscan sources mention any bell casting at the Arizona missions. Mebbe the Apaches did it?

 

[Springfield]

PS as to the value of silver in slag - some people, myself included, would not turn up a nose at hauling some slag to a smelter for easy cash. The price would not have to be that high, for rather simple effort and profit. I posted what information there is on the values in the slag - 8 ounces of silver per ton - which would amount to around $160 a ton today; I know of several businesses that run at a profit on far less value per ton of materials hauled. ...

I hate to keep questioning your arguments, but $160/ton slag is not a worthwhile economic venture, unless of course you're burning money in a tax shelter or some such scam. I was going to research the current costs for this sort of thing, but you can do it if you want to prove me wrong.

1. Equipment & labor to remove in-place slag pile and transfer to, let's say, 20-ton haul trucks. (Granted, no free Indian labor.)
2. Haulage fees, roundtrip, to nearest smelter. This alone may kill the idea, depending on distance.
3. Smelter fees. They will charge you to crush and concentrate the slag, then smelt the concentrates. For small batch recoveries, they'll likely take half of the value.

Your other option is to bring in your own concentrating plant to the slag pile site before haulage. Equipment, labor, power. $$.

If you're at $1,000/ton, it might be worth it.

 

[deducer]

Don Jose,

I am, of course, aware that mercury was used right up to the twentieth century for medicinal purposes. I know that the Jesuits were familiar with mercury. They were also aware of the dangers of using it to refine silver ore as early as 1600.

Take care,

Joe

Actually as early as 1590, and probably earlier.

Even more reason for them not to have used mercury for any other purpose than what was absolutely needed.

Don't think they were that dumb.

 

[Springfield]

Dang I hate to leave for a couple of days and the thread takes off. HAHAHA. ...

1. Okay.
2. You can't compare ore from 300 years ago with today's ore!! Today, a gold mine can make good dough at 5 grams/ton. Sorry, but you can't just assume these mines were 'bonanzas', without putting numbers on the rock. As our good buddy deducer would say, "Show me." I realize that you can't provide 19th century assays of these abandoned properties (the ones you and Oro frequently cite), but, if you could, it might greatly strengthen your argument. Besides, if these mines were bonanzas, why weren't they hidden, like the Jesuits' other phantom bonanzas of local legend?
3. Whatever. Don't Catholics lie, cheat and steal too? People are people - they get away with stuff, and if caught, pay the penalties.
4. Okay.
5. Not for a New York minute do I put credence in the Molina Document (except as a coded red herring, of course, like many 'treasure revelations'). Nor do I care what happened in South America. It's the Santa Cruz Valley we're focusing on. The brothers might have buried some candlesticks for safe-keeping, yes. I do believe there are large caches in Arizona, but they didn't originate with the Jesuits, IMO. We're not on the same page, but we are in the same book.

 

[deducer]

Joe mercury was used as a medicinal

for exaple if one was constipated one was supposed to talke a mouthful and dnn judicily jump around if it didn't

take i9mmediate effect

Not by the Jesuits.

Their medicinal practices, although rooted in the European tradition, came to depend a lot on native knowledge and practice, more than they themselves wanted to admit. Florilegium Medicinal written by a Jesuit brother, Juan de Esteyneffer, demonstrates this pretty well.