Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Been goofing off , actually doing the taxes, sheesh, this year they want $10,000 US dollars for the ''Tayopa" mines, plus I have 3 other mines also, sniff. sniff


Black beard, Gallum, etc., do you live near Tucson?

Tropical Tramp

 

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[gollum]

I believe BlackBeard lives near there. I live in Southern California (about a days drive).

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sheeh Gollum, I don't see my data on the Molina Map in here ??

My computer as been acting up a bit?

So, sigh, I will redo it since it was wiped after I was through sending it - lesson learned.

Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

No Problemo Jose,

Just Git'R'Done!

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gollum,k, sheesh, will do so if you stop knocking me into the cold water.

Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

DOUBLE-TIIIIIIIIIME, HAAAAAAAAAAARCH!
Mike

 

[lgadbois]

John Mitchell admitted that his story of Carreta Canyon was a work of fiction. The story of a cowboy spotting an iron door makes the reader want to believe this tale, but it was a literary invention. Many of the stories in the two treasure books he published were fictional stories. Several of the stories were based on the mines that are listed in the Molina document.

The Molina Derroterro is not the original source of the contained information. The original source document was constructed and written differently, and contained information not included in the Molina. A possible source document may have been authorized by a man named Ortiz. There were many copies of the Molina, and they were not exactly the same. The one owned by Gil Proctor of the Pete Kitchen Ranch in Nogales was different from the copy owned by Milton F. Rose. Gil Proctor may have obtained his copy from Juan Bustamente, an old Indian miner from the Nogales area. Rose did not say where he got his copy. Rose did say that he had loaned his copy with the map to Mitchell when he was writing his first book.

There has been a lot of speculation about the Molina document. Some have said that it was the waybill owned by General Conde. There was an exploration party out of Mexico City about 1813 that used the Molina, or a similar document, as a guide to find some of the old Spanish mines near Tumacacori. The mine the exploration party was most interested in locating was the Old Sopori. The mine shaft a short distance south of the old Sopori Ranch is not the location of the Old Sopori Mine. The Old Sopori could have been the Cerro Colorado, or across the valley to the west, or it could have been the mine that has been known as the Tumacacori Mine.

I have some theories of my own. I think the map is an actual treasure map for the Virgin de Guadalupe/Tumacacori Mine. I believe this because there have been at least three bullion recoveries at or near the Tumacacori Mine. For anyone that is familiar with the area, the description of the mine locations in the Molina don't agree with the actual geography west of the mission. The Molina directions do fit some of the antiqua mines found in the rich load areas east of the St Cruz River. On some of the old maps there are references to more than one San Roman Spring. It is very likely that the Molina was written to be sold, or to be used as a vehicle for raising money for a mining expedition.

The map is easy enough to understand. It is really three maps in one. It shows the general area with relative distances to other mines, it shows a map of the immediate area of the mine, and it shows a layout of the caches that were made outside the mine. The enormous tailing pile in front of the old mine is proof that the mine was worked by many people for many years. It could be that the mine was played out and the use was changed to a depository for bullion from other mine locations.

Gary Don Oliver still has rights to the Tumacacori Mine site. He thinks he may have located the entrance to the main shaft. He still has hopes to open the tunnel and see if there is anything inside. He has spent most of his adult life on this project. I wish him good luck!

 

[cptbil]

Well!
All I know is that the Mines, as shown on the map
ARE!
In the exact position as shown!

How do I know...
Tell you what, I will not try to convince anyone ...
As you all know,
Arguing is usless :P
But!
What I will do...
Is to SHOW Anyone!
All three of mines ...
Virgin of Guadalupe, Opatas, and The Pure Conception Mine !
Now!
Argue with THAT!

 

[Oroblanco]

Cptbil wrote:

But!
What I will do...
Is to SHOW Anyone!
All three of mines ...
Virgin of Guadalupe, Opatas, and The Pure Conception Mine !

Now!
Argue with THAT!

Okay I will "bite" - so you have found three holes in the ground, located precisely in the locations indicated from the Molina document - how can you be SURE that they are indeed MINES and not just some old prospect holes dug by an earlier treasure hunter, who followed the directions from the Molina Document, and dug in the spots where he (or she) believed the mine was hidden? The only reason I mention this is because this is the case in the Superstitions all too often, someone finds an old prospect hole dug by an earlier Dutch-hunter, the spot "seems" to fit with the maps or clues *(or both) so the finder believes he or she has found the Lost Dutchman, and yet there is NO GOLD to prove it beyond doubt.

To prove that you have found:
Virgin of Guadalupe

would require that you bring out some loads of silver, which are supposed to be stashed there;

to prove that you found:
the Opata silver mine

you would need to bring out some very rich silver ore, perhaps some native silver;

to prove that you have found:
The Pure Conception Mine

You might want to bring out some loads of the ore, which was assayed as being four-fifths silver and one-fifth gold, and according to two sources, there are at least thirty TONS of the rich ore already dug out and bagged in (now rotted) leather bags, stacked inside the mine.


Now I am NOT saying that you have not indeed found the mines you have named, it is entirely possible; however photos will not do the job to "prove" that you have found the actual MINES and NOT some old prospect holes dug by earlier treasure hunters, it is necessary that you bring out some of the actual ores, silver and/or gold. NO ONE would or should then have ANY DOUBTS.

Good luck and good hunting mi amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Las Vegas Bob]

Good post Oro.

I was going to point out the same thing.

Who is to say that someone else did not have/use a copy of the same map in the distant past.

They found no tunnels "where they were suppose to be as indicated by the map". So they dug exploritory holes/tunnels. In an attempt to find an ore vein.

After that, said holes/tunnels would always be exactly where they "were suppose" to be when you compare their location to a copy of said map.

 

[cptbil]

Just where! Any where !
Did "I" say That "I" found the mines ?
As you should certainly know,
Gary Don Olivier found and has mining/treasure trove claims on the
Virgin of Guadalupe Mine
That is Confirmed
I can show it to you !
I will take you to the
Pure Conception Mine
AFTER! We empty it of the SILVER BARS in it!
The Opata Mine was found yrs ago...It is worked out!
You really have to get the facts right!
The Virgin of Guadalupe Mine is not just a cache of Silver Bars...
That's would be The Pure Conception Mine!
The "Virgin Mine" is a huge cache of gold silver & White metal (?)
This is from the Document :
"loads of silver, 2650 "Crgs" of white and 905 Crgs of gold and silver stamped"

Crgs = ? could be bars, could be burro loads, could be man size packs ?

Then, it continues
" In the Mine there is a copper box that has a key in a corner .. Contains the map to an enormous treasure! "
(A Reference to Montezuma's Treasure ?)
If you want to see all of this, you'll have to get off the couch and come out to our camp(s) !
I certainly am not going to delivery anything to your front door!

 

[Las Vegas Bob]

Just where! Any where !
Did "I" say That "I" found the mines ?

You said and I quote

"What I will do...
Is to SHOW Anyone!
All three of mines ...
Virgin of Guadalupe, Opatas, and The Pure Conception Mine ! "

Anyone with a lick of sense would interpret from that statement that you found the sites.

If you say that you can take a person to the mines then then they would in fact think you have found them.

Right?

BTW

As far as getting off of a couch, I'm out in on the trail 12 months out of the year. I use a cactus patch as a bed and have pet a rattle snake as an early warning system/alarm clock for my camp..........

 

[Oroblanco]

I only wish I could "get off the couch" and very much plan to do so, but at the moment cannot afford that luxury.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[lgadbois]

There are at least three old documents that are known that describe the mines and the treasure. The document called the Molina was originally acquired by Don Santiago Molina. He was the father of Juan de Dios Molina, who was the husband of Micaela Valloreca de Molina. Her son, David Molina, showed this document to Gil Proctor and he translated it, and he put a copy in his book on page 163, "The Trails of Pete Kitchen."

Another copy with a map was by a Don Ricardo Ortiz. This was the copy obtained by Milton F. Rose. This document suggests that the Virgin Guadalupe Mine was closed around 1648. This is about the same time that Tayopa was destroyed by the Indians. This is the document that Rose loaned to John D. Mitchell for the writing of his 1933 book. The Roman numeral dates were messed up on both of these versions.

A document was created around 1756-58 by three priests that were assigned to the area. This document was written in three sections: French, German, and Spanish. The map that has been posted on this forum of the mine site and surrounding area was a part of this document. The document was signed in several places "PSR" which stands for Padres de San Ramon. There never was an order by that name. The name comes from the name they gave the creek that flows out of Peck Canyon. It is most likely that both the Molina and Ortiz documents were translations to of this document to Spanish. What did the priests store in the Tumacacori Mine? What ever it was, some of it may have been located by an expedition headed by Teodor Salazar out of Mexico City sometime around 1817.

Where did the silver bullion come from? The announcement in 1736 of large chunks of virgin silver being found on the surface of the ground created a political problem. The King of Spain wanted it all! Was the silver collected by the church and smelted into bars, or was it a group of miners that used the church as a cover? The location of the Planchas de Plata is West of the Aqua Caliente Mining District, and South of the head of Walker Canyon. The Purisima Concepcion Mine is located at this site.

Milton Rose told me that he and his partner took most of the bars out of the Purisma Mine. They sold the bars for a little over $8,000. Why he changed his story when he gave information to John Lawlor in 1972 is unknown to me. He may have been concerned about the legalities of recovering treasure from Mexico. It is also possible that the bars that were stored in the mine were from a robbery and massacre.

There has been a lot of discussion over the bars that were labeled "1701 Kino." These bars were poured in a trade bar size. The 1701 Kino was just a commemorative identification. This did not mean that the church minted these bars. The bars may have been created from any one of many of the silver mines in Northern Mexico. The bars may have been minted well into the 1800s.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,
Well as I recall, the slabs of native silver were in fact seized by Captain de Anza (father of the famous explorer) and held for judgement by agents of the King - and the Viceroy agreed with Anza, but the King over-ruled the Viceroy saying (paraphrase here) "...that he did not wish to deprive his subjects of it" and ordering it returned to the finders. Of course I do not have access to the Royal Archives in Spain....

Then there is the tale of Milton F. Rose and his "Purisma". He told of finding stacks of silver bars in the mine. The oldest reports I could ever find on Purisma included NO reference to any silver bars being stored there. The silver bars and other relics brought into the USA by Rose were denounced as frauds by father Polzer. Purisma Concepcion was indeed found by a pair of prospectors in 1918, who also found a "visita" church nearby, though in ruins. (They had just returned from fighting the Kaiser, as the story goes, and wanted to try their luck at prospecting in lovely Arizona.)

They did get a couple of black and white photos, which have survived (or did up to the 1970s) which showed the ruins of the old church, nothing but dissolving adobe walls really and probably even less of that remaining today - and one of the entrance to the mine - in that photo you can see the name "Purisma Concepcion" literally carved into the rock face. These two men said they found it by accident, and sent one of the partners off to have a sample of the ore assayed - since they had found stacks and stacks of old rotted leather bags stuffed full of the ore. This partner did get the assay done and snapped one last photo (he had one shot remaining in the camera) so as to be able to get it developed. His last shot was of the dark clouds and scenery on the way out to "civilization".

This partner got the assay done (which came back with shockingly rich results, as mentioned before) but in the meantime a nasty rainstorm had blown in, and caused heavy flash-floods to scour the hills. He was unable to find the campsite after the flood had subsided, though after getting help to search for his friend, they did find the remains of the tent and a few other items which strongly suggested that his partner had died in the flood. The landmarks had changed enough that he was never able to find the mine OR the church again. He appeared (then an old man) on television in the early 1960's on a talk show, where his very interesting photos were displayed for the cameras. (I was young and impressionable then, and this may have had some effect on my own continuing interest as I remember seeing it - I think it was on Jack Paar's tonight show but not sure. If I could find a tape/DVD of this particular guest appearance I would pay to own it! ) I used to own copies of the two photos but these were lost in a fire 1989 along with much else.

So did Milton Rose find Purisma, years after the two returning doughboys, (1930s I believe) and find bars of silver instead of sacks of rich ore? Perhaps, but he was in Mexico and the two men in 1918 were in Arizona, not Mexico. I am not convinced that Rose ever found Purisma, nor several of the other lost mines he also claimed to have found and worked out such as (if memory serves) the Lost Dutchman, which he said was a little pocket of gold that he got some $30,000 out of, on Four Peaks. He was a fair writer of treasure tales, in my opinion, but I suspect that in several cases he was either quite mistaken, or perhaps "embellishing" to make the story more interesting. I won't go and claim that he was a liar, but I have trouble believing him.

This is MY OPINION ONLY and if anything I have written is of offense to anyone, my apologies, NO offense is intended. Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

PS I did an article on Purisma a few years ago, it is available online (for a fee naturally)at:
http://www.losttreasure.com/Shopping/pc-4420-2-jesuit-silver-la-purisma-concepcion.aspx

 

[lgadbois]

Dear Oro,
It is good to be skeptical about anything anyone writes. I applaud your wisdom. Even though I knew Milton Rose, I wondered about some of the things he would say. In this piece I would like to offer some information on two different subjects. You will believe what you choose.

I'm not sure where you got the story of two doughboys discovering the mine with sacks of ore in 1918.

The first subject is Norman G Wallace's article entitled, "The Mystery Of Cerro Ruido." This article was written for and published in the Arizona Highways magazine in the October, 1945 issue, on page 31. It is the first telling of this tale, and the source of all the rewrites by many other authors including Mitchell, Choral Pepper, Thomas Penfield, etc. (As Milton Rose would say, "And so the Grasshopper Library grows!") Wallace's article does not give the year that the story was supposed to have occured. (I don't know where Choral Pepper got the date of 1922 that was published in her story, "Fabulous Lost Mission", that was published in Saga Magazine.)

Wallace's article gives some weak history and imaginitive creation as it starts with the story. When we get to the meat of the tale, Wallace says that the characters are called by other than their real names. He heard this tale from a "Bill Walters". Walters was an civil engineer on a West Coast railroad and worked with Wallace. I am not going to get into the details of this tale, but I do have some things that must be said.

The "Don Felipe" in the tale was also a friend of Wallace. His actual name was Phil Clark. Clark owned a ranch that was located on the Ruby Road about a half a mile East of the Pena Blanca CC Camp turnoff. Wallace spent a lot of his spare time visiting Clarks at his ranch. They were all fascinated with the mining history of the area. They had filed a mining claim on a good silver load in the Oroblanco Mining District. Walters was also a frequent visitor, and years earlier worked some mining claims in the area. "Davie Davidson," the Scot veteran of the battle of Vimy Ridge in WWI, came to visit Walters at the Clark Ranch and became interested in prospecting. He wanted to investigate the site of the Planchas de Plata discovery (which is in Mexico). With Walters help, he set up a base camp near the head of Walker Canyon.

Since the article provided photos that were supposedly taken, and Wallace had appeared as a guest on both Thomas Penfield and Bill Burrud's TV Shows, I decided to do some real research on this story. I wrote a letter to Wallace on February 21, 1973 and asked him some questions about the article. He replied on March 15 saying that he was unable to add any additional information about the story, but he did give some additional information of a general nature. He also gave me his phone number and invited me to visit him if I ever was in Pheonix.

Wallace had a career of 53 years in the fields of railroad and highway construction, and mining. He retired in 1955 from the position with the Arizona Highway Dept. as the Chief Location Engineer. Before that he had spent about 14 years locating the rail beds from Nogales to Orendain, Jalisco. During his years as a Location Civil Engineer, he always walked the prospective routes himself. He carried and old 8" x 10" format Graphics camera wherever he went, and took thousands of pictures. Prior to WWII from 1923 to 1938, Wallace worked several of the mines in the Pajaritos including the White Oak Mine, the Big Steve Mine, the Sunset Mine, and some gold placers about a 1/4 mile SW of Alamo Spring in Section 8.

In 1974, I was in the Pheonix area. I visited Norman Wallace and his wife at their home, which was located at 1625 W. Wilshire Drive. They were a lovely couple. We talked about many of his experiences. Wallace agreed to show me some of the pictures he had taken with his 8x10 camera. He had the pictures carefully filed and marked. The prints were stored in film boxes along with the negatives. He proudly showed me pictures of his hard rock claim in the Oroblanco District. And whoops..... In the box was the photo that was shown on page 33 of the magazine article. I asked him what the picture was. He replied that it was a picture of the silver vein where it was exposed on his claim. At that point I asked him, did you use your own photos for the magazine article. He confessed that he did. He would not say where he had photographed the ruined chapel that was printed on page 32 of the article. It was getting late and I thanked him for the entertaining evening and left.

I also did some research to try and locate the story of a hiker that was swept away and lost in the Nogales area between 1918 and 1944. I was unable to find any such story. Through my research I became convinced that this was an unsubstantiated campfire tale. I have doubts whether any of it is true.

The second subject is about Milton Rose. Milton was a very bright, creative, and interesting person. He was a Printer, Geologist, Writer, Song Composer, Treasure Hunter, Prospector, and family man. He often challeged supposed factual statements when he thought they were "bull." He labeled Barney Bernard and Vic Marcell as liars, and had harsh words for others that tried to pass off fiction as the truth. The other side of the paradox was that he felt free to embellish some of his stories with things that were not true. I have no reason to believe that he ever lied to me, but there were many things that he would not answer. I will give you an example.

In 1970, Milton wrote a story for the GOLD! magazine titled, "I found a lost mine." This article was a gut response to another published article written by Dr. Harrington titled, "I'm Sick Of Lost Mines." Milton's article was much larger then what you find in the magazine. The magazine was unwilling to print it all, and did a crappy job of editing it. In the article, Milton gives some of his personal history. (If anyone is interested in knowing a little about Milton Rose, this is a good read.) Milton relates the details of several of his successful finds including the one just South of the border on the SW slopes of Cerro Ruido. I think it was John Mitchell that was his partner on this discovery, but Milton did not want to discuss this story in detail with me. On page 20 of the article in the third column he wrote, "Late on the fourth day I drove into camp to discover that John had company-a young man." Later in the article on page 22 third column bottom, "However, our nosey friend must have guessed the truth. He found the place and left photographic evidence of the fact. "Left" is the correct word. He was drowned in a flash flood that caught him in the steep-walled canyon where the mine is located." Milton would not tell me the year that this happened, but one time suggested it may have been about 1931 (Mitchell's book with a translation of the DerroTerro was printed in 1933.) Was this Davie Davidson, or what ever his name was? Or did Milton read Wallace's story, and put it in his own article for embellishment? I don't know. On the top of page 23 first column, "Our final dynamite blast completely destroyed the rock above the opening - the rock with it's carved inscription "Pure Concepcion." Milton admitted to me that the tunnel was not labeled with a carved inscription, and that it was a story embellishment.

I could say more, but I have already said too much. And so, "the Grasshopper Library" grows!

 

[gollum]

Hey Lgad,

If you read my old post about some Gold/Silver Bars owned by a gentleman in AZ, you will find pics of a letter from Milton Rose to Father Polzer, with a transcript of that letter just after the pics. In it, he states that the entire Pure Concepcion Story in the Magazine Article was fabrication. He says that the REAL source of the silver bars was a Mule Train Massacre in Mexico. The reason for the deception, was that part of the Mule Train Massacre Cache was a substantial amount of gold bullion which he was still looking for (and never found as far as I know).


http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,100582.0.html

Best-Mike

 

[cptbil]

Read My earlier "posts" ... #27 & #30
Then, I ( & Doc) WILL !
Take you out
AND!
Doc & I, WILL!
Show you several of the Signs / symbols that are on the MAP..
You will be shown & taken to , right where they are on the Ground..

You'll be able to Walk up to, photograph them & Touch them

I'll also, show you
The Pure Conception Mine (after we first recovery/remove the silver bars !)+

All! Exactly as shown on the MAP!

OK! WHo's wants to & who is going to go

 

[aquadood]

Cpt,

When will you be in the area? I'll gladly buy you a cup of coffee and talk for a spell.

 

[HighPlainsSifter]

Greetings, is this still an active thread? I live just north of Tumacacori and I nugget shoot all the time there. I have found a sort of hidden canyon with caves and such, just south of Tumacacori...any interest to anyone?