Another piece to the puzzle? Never before seen Peralta Stone.

[alberticus59]

Thank you again somehiker, I am glad to see that you are following this thread and I hope to hear more from you. Your knowledge on this subject is invaluable. Your photos are interesting and I can appreciate your eye for finding the features in rock formations. I have held back until now but I believe I will pass along a source of info that has brought me much insight. The books I have mentioned in my posts. I found them at a prospecting shop in Mesa AZ.the first one is Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow and Sun Signs, by Charles A. Kenworthy, Quest Publishing , P.O. box 260100, Encino, CA, 91426. The second one is from the same author and publisher titled Spanish Monuments & Trailmarkers to Treasure in the United States. These boks are must reads for anyone interested in searching for lost spanish mines in the southwest.

 

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[H-2 CHARLIE]

this is very cool indeed >> if i had to guess it is a trail maker for sure .. a post sign from way back

 

[alberticus59]

Somehiker , Thanks again for your input. Alb

 

[alberticus59]

Could this stone be a claim marker, as already mentioned by someone? Or an old grave marker? Or coded instructions to a close by cache of some kind? Did anyone think to metal detect under where the stone was found? I would be looking for other stones or obvious clues near where Ollie found the stone. This is very interesting- can't wait to hear what you find out!

geezerdb, Personally I think trail marker rather than claim marker because of the etched skyline on it. ( why would a claim marker need a picture of some hills on it?) When I am able to go see Ollie again you better believe we will be looking for more of the trail markers. Did you know that the Spanish miners were given very specific instructions as to how to mark the trails to their mines. The King did not want to lose the wealth he was gaining from these rich gold and silver mines. The trail markers included boulders that were positioned to catch the eye from a distance, or, saguaro cactus that would be mutilated in such a manner that only someone with prior knowledge of the signs could decipher. The mines were mapped as well and every one of them had the same explicit instructions to follow.
Some of the letters on Ollie's stone don't seem to follow the code but some of the symbols are exactly as described in the book on signs and symbols to Spanish treasure. I will keep everyone posted on any new developments as they come up. Thanks, Alb

 

[alberticus59]

this is very cool indeed >> if i had to guess it is a trail maker for sure .. a post sign from way back

H-2 charlie, I agree with you ...., very cool indeed ! Thanks Alb

 

[alberticus59]

Roadrunner,












Roadrunner, Thanks , I appreciate your help . I understand the usgs but you lost me on the LR2000. Its up to you though , if you think it might help , go for it. what could it hurt? Thanks again Alb




thanksI appreciate your help

 

[Springfield]

If your intent is to be thorough in researching the five letters on the stone, you need to consider them as an anagram and look at all possible combinations of the letters:

ihbda
ihbad
ihdba
ihdab
ihabd
ihadb
ibhda
ibhad
ibdha
ibdah
ibahd
ibadh
idhba
idhab
idbha
idbah
idahb
idabh
iahbd
iahdb
iabhd
iabdh
iadhb
iadbh
hibda
hibad
hidba
hidab
hiabd
hiadb
hbida
hbiad
hbdia
hbdai
hbaid
hbadi
hdiba
hdiab
hdbia
hdbai
hdaib
hdabi
haibd
haidb
habid
habdi
hadib
hadbi
bihda
bihad
bidha
bidah
biahd
biadh
bhida
bhiad
bhdia
bhdai
bhaid
bhadi
bdiha
bdiah
bdhia
bdhai
bdaih
bdahi
baihd
baidh
bahid
bahdi
badih
badhi
dihba
dihab
dibha
dibah
diahb
diabh
dhiba
dhiab
dhbia
dhbai
dhaib
dhabi
dbiha
dbiah
dbhia
dbhai
dbaih
dbahi
daihb
daibh
dahib
dahbi
dabih
dabhi
aihbd
aihdb
aibhd
aibdh
aidhb
aidbh
ahibd
ahidb
ahbid
ahbdi
ahdib
ahdbi
abihd
abidh
abhid
abhdi
abdih
abdhi
adihb
adibh
adhib
adhbi
adbih
adbhi

 

[alberticus59]

Springfield, I know the pictures I took were not done with a good camera , only my phone, so you may not be able to see it , but there are inscriptions on two side of the stone. On the side you are speaking about , the letters are: (left - right)
I, the second symbol which appears to be an H, on close examination is actually closed on top and bottom. It resembles a double paned window, B (reversed), D (reversed), A. Those are the larger symbols on that side. There are also numerous smaller symbols which are not seen so easily especially in a photo. There is what looks like either a dagger or an x by the bottom of the second leg of the "A". In front of the first letter is a, - , a line and there are more which I will have to take another look at. That is on the one side. There is a second side , (skyline side), which also has larger letters as well. (Left-right). "M","O", this third one is hard to figure out. It kind of resembles an"F" but with out the small arm and with a squared hook at the end of the upper arm, "M" . That is the larger symbols. There are also many other small symbols, such as: arrows, strange little symbols I don't know how to describe, and the etched skyline. Amazingly the skyline actually shows lots of detail for a carving that couldn't be more than 5 or six inches long. Anyway my point was that instead of trying to get all the possible combinations first we need to see exactly what all of them are. I greatly appreciate your suggestions and input. Thank you. Alb

 

[Springfield]

Hmmm. Yes, better photos definitely help.

If the 'H' is closed top/bottom, then it might be an '8'. Also, the middle figure ('B'?) looks to have an open connection on the bottom. If there is also an open connection on the top, then the middle figure could be two figures, a backwards '1' and '3'. If this is the case, the whole string could be read as the backwards date, 'AD 1381'. Not likely a date though - a little too early.

The more I look at your pictures, the more the stone smells like the work of a land surveyor. If you could locate the stones original position, you might find that it corresponds to a property corner or other node on a land survey plat. You'd have to dig around in your county courthouse to check it out. As you know, land surveyors set their corners with marked stones prior to more modern 20th century methods. If not a property corner, maybe a township line or a control point. I've never seen backwards letters used, but who knows? Show the rock to a well-experienced surveyor for his opinion.

Was this thing found in a mining district? I guess it could be a mining claim marker. Again, however, the backwards letters are odd. I guess you would like to assume it's a treasure marker, but the odds against that are enormous. Too bad you removed it from its original position. Its exact location and orientation were undoubtedly important, no matter what its purpose. Don't ever do that again.

 

[somehiker]

I would have to agree with Springfield about this stone having been moved, at least before a full set of photos, including a 360 deg. panoramic of the surrounding area. All may not be lost though, since Ollie may be able to remember how it was when found. As I mentioned it's made from white stone, which seems to have been part of the modus operandi employed by the same people who fabricated the Stone Maps. I would suggest that the square shape should reference the four cardinal directions, or bearings at 90 deg. to each other,with the markings on each side corresponding to any of these compass headings. I would also look for any square hole nearby, in case the stone was meant to be used at that point. Both ends are tapered, probably to make insertion easier, so there may be two square holes in rock somewhere nearby. These could be vertical, horizontal, or even on a slant.
The writing looks like ancient latin:

View attachment ancient latin 2.bmp

Regards:SH.

 

[markmar]

somehiker

The rock face is nice picture . Maybe look at " his " mine . Waltz in his clues told about two rock faces .
The first clue say " a rock face look up to my mine '', and the second say " is a rock face in the trail to my mine ".
Maybe you have the first , and I , the second . The second is a totem .



The more clues , Waltz had told before dying and after had made the Julia Thomas map . The clue " Is a trick in the trail to my mine " concerns Julia Thomas map . Waltz made the same "trick " as the other author of the stones map . The same trick is how the trail go above from the Weavers Needle .This means how Waltz knew about the stones map . Yes I know , is incredible . but for the moment has not yet accepted my technique .

Have a nice day

Marius

 

[alberticus59]

Springfield, Well I doubt that it is a claim marker or a surveyors corner stone. A claim marker would have numbers, I think..., for that matter a surveyors marker would too. I know I need to remain open minded so I dont leave myself open for a big disappointment. By the way , as I have posted before, I am not the discoverer of the stone and it wasnt that long ago that I met "Ollie", although it has been laying around at his property for @ 10 yrs, I would be surprised if he cant show me exactly where it was and even the orientation or alignment of it. I am getting ready to print out the exchanges we've had here so I can go see him. If there is time I will have him show me the spot where it was found. Thank you for your advice , comments and input. Alb

 

[alberticus59]

Those of you following this thread, I made it back down to Ollie's yesterday,[Sat., Mar. 16] and as I hoped he took me and a friend Pam to the spot where the stone was found. He was able to show me exactly how it was positioned. so if need be I can take compass readings to aid in the hunt. We sat down there and rested as we waited for Pam to catch up. The mountain it was on didn't look that steep or that tall from his yard, but my legs were feeling the burn as we climbed further and further up that mountain. Then when we were just short of the summit he stopped and pointed down at a small out cropping of schist and said "right here is where I found it." I breathed a sigh of relief and pulled off my backpack, grabbed 3 bottles of water out and we rested. The view was fantastic. Weavers Needle was visible over the top of one ridge, and Miners Needle was in full view. "Ollie" had his binoculars and we took turns glassing the area passing the glasses back and forth."Look at this" and point out some interesting feature of the landscape passing the lenses. Some of that terrain looked so rough, the only way to describe it would be"badlands". A mountain goat would have difficulty navigating that country.
That went on for a while and I decided to take a look around at the minerals in the area and gather some specimens. The rocks ranged from schist to limestone, and showed some degree of mineralization. After I had collected a hefty packs worth of rock, I suggested a different route down off the mountain that would pass by some rock outcroppings on the ridge which joined the other side of the peak we were on. Ollie said that would be alright with him and so we started the hike down off the mountain. The descent was much easier going and Pam was able to use her camera to take some pictures of the beautiful flowers and gnarly deadwood scattered about. Ollie talked about the huge Desert Mule deer he had hunted in the area and I made it my mission to observe every outcropping and collect specimens. I would guess that by the time we were near the bottom my pack weighed a good 60-70 lbs. We stopped at a spot near the bottom to rest a minute and Ollie pointed out a palo verde growing out of a schist outcropping on the opposite side of the small canyon.He said there was an Indian ruin there,and some broken pottery sherds. I wanted to check it out and see if i could find an arrowhead to add to my collection. Pam was not up for anymore hiking so we decided to split up. Ollie would take Pam back to the ranch while I would go up to the ruin, look around and then take a trail that would put me back on the one we had used to go up the mountain. We split up and I didn't get very far before I realized how heavy my pack had gotten. Thankfully, it was just a short climb to the ruin. I didn't find any arrowheads but, being the rockhound that I am, I added more weight to my already overloaded pack. At least the trail wasn't bad as it lead me down a cut made by a crew installing the power transmission towers. When I was almost to the point where the trail would join the original trail we had taken, and at the base of the mountain Ollie had found the stone with carvings on it, I noticed a Saguaro cactus that had the main trunk cut off in a perfect slanted cut. The slanted surface faced up towards the area where we had been where Ollie found the stone. I might of just dismissed it as being the work of nature, but, not twenty feet from it stood another Saguaro with the same slanted cut facing the exact same direction. At that moment I knew, my reasoning had been confirmed, the stone is a marker put there by someone a long time ago. The slanted cut surfaces were no longer reachable by anything but an extension ladder [25 ft in the air] . I looked at the mountain as I stood between those two Saguaros and tried to match the angle at which they were cut. I was looking right at the spot Ollie had said he found the stone. There was not a single white stone visible on that hillside. It would have stood out like a sore thumb.
I made the rest of the hike back to the ranch returning on the same trail we had left on. He was there kicking back with his boots and hat off in the comfort of the billiards room. He asked if I had found any arrowheads. I told him that I didn't find anything but broken pottery at the ruin. Then I told him about finding the Saguaros and I think I saw a look of surprise, like a light had blinked on up in his head and he smiled and nodded. He had seen them before but never realized the connection between them and his stone. Some other friends of his had showed up and as it was getting late in the day I told him that I needed to start heading back home. He was offering dinner but I thankfully declined and told him I would return when I could get a chance to, and when I had figured out the next move to make. Thats when he offered to let me take the stone back with me so I could get a chance to look at it closer. I was some what taken by surprise by the offer because compared to some of his friends that he has known for years I am still a newbie. I was honored by the offer and declined until he explained that he trusted me, everyone he had asked that knew me had given him good reports as to my character, and not only that, he knows where I live. We both laughed, and then I accepted the offer.
He had someone help me get the heavy stone into the trunk of the car and with a few good-bys and hugs I pulled out onto the dirt road that lead back to the highway home. All in all, it was a great trip. Alb

 

[somehiker]

Sounds like you're off to a good start Alb.
White markers seem to have been an important component of the modus operandi of one group, rather than the large piles of rock so often encountered out there.
Simple and effective, and for some reason they do not seem to harbour the growth of lichen or moss as do other rocks.
The old angle-cut Saguaro's you describe exist in other locations as well. By the number of arms and the height of these cuts and other markings above ground, it seems both the cactus and the markings are very old.
Here are a couple of shots of one that is high above and across from the entrance to Peter's Canyon.
The 45 deg cut faces toward Geronimo Head, and is about 20'-25' up on the central limb (1st growth) of the Saguaro.
These are clean cuts, probably done by a machete or sword with a single slash.

View attachment cut saguaro.bmp

View attachment 45deg cut.bmp

Regards:SH.

 

[alberticus59]

i made a mistake when I gave the date of my visit with Ollie it should have been [Sat., Mar.16]. Alb

 

[alberticus59]

Somehiker, Thanks for your encouraging comments and remarks. As you now know I have the stone now and wish to do a thorough examination and catalog the letters and symbols. Exactly how I intend to do that..., well.., I'm not real sure. I am no expert on this sort of work and the one thing I don't want to happen is to destroy any of its markings by scrubbing it. However, I would like to remove the dirt stuck to it. Maybe someone can suggest a way to clean it that would leave the detail intact.
By the way, in case you wondered why I failed to post pictures of the cactus or the view from the spot the stone was when he found it . I left my phone at the car. Ooops. I'm not sure that it would be prudent at this point to post any pictures taken from the spot. Just to be on the safe side. This may not be the time or place to make this known but as I have advised Ollie, if someone would like to make an offer to buy the stone along with all the rights to anything found by deciphering its meaning, provided with all information on its location when found, personally guided hike to the spot, shown the saguaros that look to the spot, I advised him to sell it. My reasoning is that [assuming the offer is adequate], the deciphering may take some time, the lost or hidden mine it provides information for, may or may not still be hidden, better to have a bird in hand than two in the bush. This is an authentic modern day treasure hunt that could make someone very wealthy. Personally I would like to continue working on it regardless of outcome it is in the thrill of the chase. It would be wrong of me to advise him to hold out in case we are able to find the pot at the end of the rainbow. We, Ollie, myself, readers, are not guaranteed even one more day here. Better to have something he could use today. Any reasonable offer would be considered. If someone could help in finding a reliable, accredited institution that could authenticate this find we would be more than willing to submit it for scrutiny by them. Thank you. Alb

 

[somehiker]

Alb:
Your artifact may undergo an examination, but more likely it will be by some official not of your choosing.
If authentic and more than fifty years old, it is possible that both yourself and Abe are in violation of several laws.
Any attempt to sell such a find will further complicate the situation....ill advised in my opinion.
The best, and probably only solution would be to return the stone to it's original location and replace it as found.
Get a good camera and take lots of photos, then give the folks at the SMM a call and give them the location.
They can then, if interested, negotiate with the proper authorities regarding it's disposition.
Take it from one who has done it. It's always good practice to dot the i's and cross the t's.

Regards:SH.

 

[alberticus59]

Alb:
Your artifact may undergo an examination, but more likely it will be by some official not of your choosing.
If authentic and more than fifty years old, it is possible that both yourself and Abe are in violation of several laws.
Any attempt to sell such a find will further complicate the situation....ill advised in my opinion.
The best, and probably only solution would be to return the stone to it's original location and replace it as found.
Get a good camera and take lots of photos, then give the folks at the SMM a call and give them the location.
They can then, if interested, negotiate with the proper authorities regarding it's disposition.
Take it from one who has done it. It's always good practice to dot the i's and cross the t's.

Regards:SH.

Somehiker, Once again thank you, and as usual some very sound advice. As for returning it to its exact location, I don't think that is likely. I was barely able to carry my own ass up that hill. Of course I will tell Ollie what you have advised and show him the posts here in. This is unexpected and disappointing to say the least. I am somewhat perplexed by the contradiction that , "You are allowed to treasure hunt but not allowed to have what you find. You might even be in violation of law if you move it." I am now totally derailed and at a loss as to how to proceed. I do sincerely appreciate your warning and will seriously seek legal advice in this matter. Alb

 

[alberticus59]

Somehiker, I'm not sure who the SMM is. Thanks. Alb

 

[somehiker]

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