Jesse James Treasures: Do They Likely Still Exist?

[Ditlihi]

NONE...in 1978. There was not any skin left to show sutures but the skull cap was Not cut open. In 1995 It Was In Pieces. Like I mentioned 1995 really meant very little to me as far as seeing what was in the ground/Grave. If I remember right and I could be wrong on the date, he was not reinterred until 1982. I did not go to that, a friend did though. To me after that length of time Anything could of happened but even that wasn't why I didn't go. I Wanted To See The Original 1978 exhumation to see the casket and what was left of the body. I knew it would not be anything but bones. The skull and teeth interested me. We had graves moved from family cemeteries from that era in the planning and construction of Truman Lake in Benton and St Clair Counties in MO...I was very aware of what shape the casket and remains would probably be in.

I had family graves relocated myself, and witnessed by my GGrandfather, when they built Bagnell Dam and inundated the original town of Linn Creek, MO. So, yes, I am familiar with his descriptions and yours.

But you are positive there was no indication of any separation of the skull cap in 1978. That could mean either a) the autopsy was never performed as described...or b) it was not the same body as was interred in 1882.

Since we have no way of confirming the autopsy, and assuming it actually was performed, the only other possible explanation is that the body interred in 1882 is not the same body that was reinterred in 1902, after the removal from the James Family Farm. IMHO, of course.

But since we can't confirm the autopsy, it could have no significance at all.

 

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[Kace]

I Am Positive! It was whole in the Grave, It was lifted out whole. It couldn't of fused back together even after they ***SORRY*** pulled his scalp and face back over the skull. Whoever was in that Grave Was Dead...Unless, They Weren't.

Another sickening fact is a lot of people were pronounced dead and they weren't. My Grandparents would talk about the stories being so rampant that while waiting for the Blacksmith to make the casket, the body was laid out in the parlor or living room, washed and clothed and people would put a mirror under "the deceased" nose and mouth to see if it fogged up from shallow breaths. In some areas folks that were really afraid of this happening to them had a tube and post with a bell hooked to a rope and running into the casket...They thought if they woke up, they would start ringing the bell! The rope/bell tube would act as an airway as well so they wouldn't suffocate before being dug up! Jeez that would be creepy! They Still Have That Happen...People waking up in body bags in Morgues! I want a 3 day grace period before anything is done with me!!

**I really don't think that happened with this topic!**

Bagnell Dam was completed and operating by Union Electric in 1929 I think. Those exhumations would of been something to witness, not in a gruesome way, but I imagine great care was taken back then. Not almost a century had passed and the reburials would have been attended by some who remembered them. I have family in Linn Creek, Camdenton, Eldon and Roach if you are familiar with those towns too. Another Missourian!! Years ago the land where Bridal Cave is was family owned, if you remember that. It wasn't Bridal Cave then. So many little towns, settlements, home places and cemeteries are under both lakes...I Know COE tried pretty hard with Truman to relocate the cemeteries but there was No Way to get them all.

 

[Ditlihi]

I Am Positive! It was whole in the Grave, It was lifted out whole. It couldn't of fused back together even after they ***SORRY*** pulled his scalp and face back over the skull. There literally was Nothing attached.

Bagnell Dam was completed and operating by Union Electric in 1929 I think. THOSE exhumations would of been amazing to witness. I have family in Linn, Camdenton and Roach if you are familiar with those towns too. Years ago the land where Bridal Cave is was family owned, if you remember that. It wasn't Bridal Cave then. So many little towns, settlements and cemeteries are under both lakes...I Know COE tried pretty hard with Truman to relocate the cemeteries but there was No Way to get them all.

I am familiar with those areas as well. A LOT of history beneath those lakes.

 

[Kace]

One other thing that "could" of happened, although I Didn't see this either...Is that maybe they used some type of forceps or probe to go through the soft tissue or neck area at the Base of the Skull. If it was done at the Base of the Skull and Not Through the Skull there was Nothing left to tell in '78. Vertebrae were virtually gone.

Like you said...It was Not Well Documented at least By Anyone Who Didn't Have Something To Gain. Either Way.

 

[Ditlihi]

One other thing that "could" of happened, although I Didn't see this either...Is that maybe they used some type of forceps or probe to go through the soft tissue or neck area at the Base of the Skull. If it was done at the Base of the Skull and Not Through the Skull there was Nothing left to tell in '78. Vertebrae were virtually gone.

Like you said...It was Not Well Documented at least By Anyone Who Didn't Have Something To Gain. Either Way.

I don't believe they had the capacity to do what you are describing, in 1882. They would have removed the skull cap, just as described in the alleged autopsy account.

In any event, the autopsy account recorded does not match what you described upon the 1978 exhumation. Leaves too much room for speculation, and much fodder for Conspiracy Analysts, lol. With no way to confirm the autopsy, the facts will always be shrouded on this point. If there was indeed a conspiracy by leaking the alleged autopsy, it was a very well thought out strategy. Our only lead at this juncture would have come from any mention of the condition of the skull when disinterred in 1902. To my knowledge, no verifiable account has surfaced. Anyone here is welcome to correct me if I am mistaken... maybe someone else has better information?

 

[Kace]

I don't believe they had the capacity to do what you are describing, in 1882. They would have removed the skull cap, just as described in the alleged autopsy account.

In any event, the autopsy account recorded does not match what you described upon the 1978 exhumation. Leaves too much room for speculation, and much fodder for Conspiracy Analysts, lol. With no way to confirm the autopsy, the facts will always be shrouded on this point. If there was indeed a conspiracy by leaking the alleged autopsy, it was a very well thought out strategy. Our only lead at this juncture would have come from any mention of the condition of the skull when disinterred in 1902. To my knowledge, no verifiable account has surfaced. Anyone here is welcome to correct me if I am mistaken... maybe someone else has better information?

I Agree...None of us were there in 1882 or 1902 and everyone that gave testimony had something to gain..ie; Yes it's Jesse or No it isn't Jesse. Anyone who cared about him or wanted to continue exploits with him would want him to be able to live without hiding. Anyone who didn't care would want capitalize on his death. Governor Crittendon wanted to preserve his position.

I always like 2-3 verifiable accounts of anything or anyone. Sometimes ya get it and sometimes ya don't!

The 1978 exhumation I witnessed did not prove it was Jesse Woodson James....It was a very decomposed skeleton. With an Undamaged Bullet. The casket matched the era, but so did every other casket of that era except some had a glass pane and others did not. What I saw was just Bones, Teeth, Bits of Fabric, A Bullet,Rotted Wood, Broken Glass and a Piece or two of Pot Metal? It Proved Nothing...Could of Been Anyone and Anyone can put Anything on a Tombstone.

This is what I told the Tnet member who contacted me....

I have Always had a very difficult time believing that Jesse W. James of Kearney, MO would have Two Brothers in his home that he didn't have a Long Trusting History with, knowing that he had a large, for the time, Bounty on his head.. Then turn his back on them when he knew they had loaded guns. It's hard for me to fathom that the Lengendary Jesse James was shot Dead in the back of the head in His Own Home. None of that makes sense to me. If I buy or sell something I Don't turn my back to people I don't know well. Same way with Friends of Friends/Family if we are in each other's homes. I don't think it's safe.

I Believe the most accepted photo (Posted on this Thread) of JWJ with the receding hairline is the Real...Original if you will Jesse James who rode with Quantrill and was KGC and Brother of Alexander Franklin James.
I Believe This JJ has Been in Many States during and after the Civil War.

Thankfully We Have Tnet Members Here Who Can Help With That. I Have More To Add On His Missouri and Kansas Travels.

I Believe This JJ Home Base Was Missouri.

I Do Not Believe The Man in The Casket or Death Photo is This Jesse James.
I Do Not Believe The Bullet Hole In The Wall in St Joseph, MO was The Kill Shot.
I Do Not Believe That Blood From a Cut or Whatever on The Mans Head in the Death Photo Is An Exit Wound. I've Seen Too Many Real Exit Wounds.

I have a hard time believing people who have something to gain by writing a book that can't be confirmed. Or doing plays based on events that can't be confirmed. Or Having YouTube Channels stating events that can't be confirmed. Or having Blogs without telling more than one side of a story...trying to capitalize on someone's fame. Or using someone that can't be confirmed to sell tickets at their sideshow.

That's just me.

The 1995 exhumation for mtDNA analysis was a Confirmed Match for Known Relatives of this JWJ. After the statute of limitations ran out Stephen Caruso who was involved in the exhumation and testing claimed that the hairs used for testing were Not From The Grave, But from someone in that office. He had some problems with Clay County and Most Believed He Was Just Trying To Get Back At Them Due To This Being So High Profile. I Don't Know. Then He pops up associated with Betty Dorset Duke, who says she was the GGrandaughter of Jesse Woodson James aka James L Courtney. Did he profit from her 3 books....I Don't Know. But, it made me think that he like many others had something to gain by claiming that. I'm Not Discounting BDD yet, Only that they teamed up to challenge the '95 testing.

The James Family Before or at the Height of Robberies Did Not Live A Lavish Life. It doesn't seem odd to me that they would open the farm to tourists or curiosity seekers for .50¢ or "sell" pieces of the Headstone....People were trespassing and chipping pieces off anyway. Why not make a few bucks and never leave the farm?

I think after all the input on the Jesse W. James of Kearney,MO which has All Been Great, reinforces my thoughts from the beginning on him. I Do Not Know For Sure Who Is In That Grave!

Like D...I Feel Like If Anyone Has More To Add on This Jesse James, Please Do!!

Until Then, I'm Thinking We Should Leave For Texas and See What James Lafayette Courtney and John Frank Dalton Have Done.

I'd love to hear others views on Jesse Woodson James of Kearney, MO!!

Once we get back from there let's see about finding the good stuff!

My Offer For Anyone Who Is Well Versed in Markings to Join Me For A Virtual Hunt this October-November In Missouri Still Stands. My Boots On The Ground Along With Otherwise Unobtainable Access and Info For Your Knowledge and We Split Anything Found. I'll Post A Couple Of Pictures Later To Show I'm Not On A Ghost Hunt or Fishing For Leads.

I Did Join This Thread Due To A Member Contacting Me and It Peaked My Interest Again. After Reading The Thread I Thought Why Not All Pool Our Otherwise Unobtainable Access And Information. We All Are Spread Out In Areas That Do Contain History Of The Civil War Era and After. I'm Not The Only One Of Us Who Has That. I Do Believe All Of Us Just Want To Know Fact From Fiction.

I'm Looking Forward To All of Your Views, Questions, Thoughts and Theories! I love reading them! I Think We Will Have Some More Folks From Texas And Oklahoma Joining This Facinating Thread When We Head South. I Personally Would Like To Go East After That. We Have Some Great Members With Stories and Information From Both Areas There.

Kace

 

[Kace]

I don't believe they had the capacity to do what you are describing, in 1882. They would have removed the skull cap, just as described in the alleged autopsy account.

In any event, the autopsy account recorded does not match what you described upon the 1978 exhumation. Leaves too much room for speculation, and much fodder for Conspiracy Analysts, lol. With no way to confirm the autopsy, the facts will always be shrouded on this point. If there was indeed a conspiracy by leaking the alleged autopsy, it was a very well thought out strategy. Our only lead at this juncture would have come from any mention of the condition of the skull when disinterred in 1902. To my knowledge, no verifiable account has surfaced. Anyone here is welcome to correct me if I am mistaken... maybe someone else has better information?

I Agree...None of us were there in 1882 or 1902 and everyone that gave testimony had something to gain..ie; Yes it's Jesse or No it isn't Jesse. Anyone who cared about him or wanted to continue exploits with him would want him to be able to live without hiding. Anyone who didn't care would want capitalize on his death. Governor Crittendon wanted to preserve his position.

I always like 2-3 verifiable accounts of anything or anyone. Sometimes ya get it and sometimes ya don't!

The 1978 exhumation I witnessed did not prove it was Jesse Woodson James....It was a very decomposed skeleton. With an Undamaged Bullet. The casket matched the era, but so did every other casket of that era except some had a glass pane and others did not. What I saw was just Bones, Teeth, Bits of Fabric, A Bullet,Rotted Wood, Broken Glass and a Piece or two of Pot Metal? It Proved Nothing...Could of Been Anyone and Anyone can put Anything on a Tombstone.

This is what I told the Tnet member who contacted me....

I have Always had a very difficult time believing that Jesse W. James of Kearney, MO would have Two Brothers in his home that he didn't have a Long Trusting History with, knowing that he had a large, for the time, Bounty on his head.. Then turn his back on them when he knew they had loaded guns. It's hard for me to fathom that the Lengendary Jesse James was shot Dead in the back of the head in His Own Home. None of that makes sense to me. If I buy or sell something I Don't turn my back to people I don't know well. Same way with Friends of Friends/Family if we are in each other's homes. I don't think it's safe.

I Believe the most accepted photo (Posted on this Thread) of JWJ with the receding hairline is the Real...Original if you will Jesse James who rode with Quantrill and was KGC and Brother of Alexander Franklin James.
I Believe This JJ has Been in Many States during and after the Civil War.

Thankfully We Have Tnet Members Here Who Can Help With That. I Have More To Add On His Missouri and Kansas Travels.

I Believe This JJ Home Base Was Missouri.

I Do Not Believe The Man in The Casket or Death Photo is This Jesse James.
I Do Not Believe The Bullet Hole In The Wall in St Joseph, MO was The Kill Shot.
I Do Not Believe That Blood From a Cut or Whatever on The Mans Head in the Death Photo Is An Exit Wound. I've Seen Too Many Real Exit Wounds.

I have a hard time believing people who have something to gain by writing a book that can't be confirmed. Or doing plays based on events that can't be confirmed. Or Having YouTube Channels stating events that can't be confirmed. Or having Blogs without telling more than one side of a story...trying to capitalize on someone's fame. Or using someone that can't be confirmed to sell tickets at their sideshow.

That's just me.

The 1995 exhumation for mtDNA analysis was a Confirmed Match for Known Relatives of this JWJ. After the statute of limitations ran out Stephen Caruso who was involved in the exhumation and testing claimed that the hairs used for testing were Not From The Grave, But from someone in that office. He had some problems with Clay County and Most Believed He Was Just Trying To Get Back At Them Due To This Being So High Profile. I Don't Know. Then He pops up associated with Betty Dorset Duke, who says she was the GGrandaughter of Jesse Woodson James aka James L Courtney. Did he profit from her 3 books....I Don't Know. But, it made me think that he like many others had something to gain by claiming that. I'm Not Discounting BDD yet, Only that they teamed up to challenge the '95 testing.

The James Family Before or at the Height of Robberies Did Not Live A Lavish Life. It doesn't seem odd to me that they would open the farm to tourists or curiosity seekers for .50¢ or "sell" pieces of the Headstone....People were trespassing and chipping pieces off anyway. Why not make a few bucks and never leave the farm?

I think after all the input on the Jesse W. James of Kearney,MO which has All Been Great, reinforces my thoughts from the beginning on him. I Do Not Know For Sure Who Is In That Grave!

Like D...I Feel Like If Anyone Has More To Add on This Jesse James, Please Do!!

Until Then, I'm Thinking We Should Leave For Texas and See What James Lafayette Courtney and John Frank Dalton Have Done.

I'd love to hear others views on Jesse Woodson James of Kearney, MO!!

Once we get back from there let's see about finding the good stuff!

My Offer For Anyone Who Is Well Versed in Markings to Join Me For A Virtual Hunt this October-November In Missouri Still Stands. My Boots On The Ground Along With Otherwise Unobtainable Access and Info For Your Knowledge and We Split Anything Found. I'll Post A Couple Of Pictures Later To Show I'm Not On A Ghost Hunt or Fishing For Leads.

I Did Join This Thread Due To A Member Contacting Me and It Peaked My Interest Again. After Reading The Thread I Thought Why Not All Pool Our Otherwise Unobtainable Access And Information. We All Are Spread Out In Areas That Do Contain History Of The Civil War Era and After. I'm Not The Only One Of Us Who Has That. I Do Believe All Of Us Just Want To Know Fact From Fiction.

I'm Looking Forward To All of Your Views, Questions, Thoughts and Theories! I love reading them! I Think We Will Have Some More Folks From Texas And Oklahoma Joining This Facinating Thread When We Head South. I Personally Would Like To Go East After That. We Have Some Great Members With Stories and Information From Both Areas There.

Kace

 

[Kace]

Sorry For The Double Posts...Operator Error and I Cant Delete Quotes!

Jeff...if you are not busy.....Help!

F.. it didn't work . Sorry

 

[Ditlihi]

I Agree...None of us were there in 1882 or 1902 and everyone that gave testimony had something to gain..ie; Yes it's Jesse or No it isn't Jesse. Anyone who cared about him or wanted to continue exploits with him would want him to be able to live without hiding. Anyone who didn't care would want capitalize on his death. Governor Crittendon wanted to preserve his position.

I always like 2-3 verifiable accounts of anything or anyone. Sometimes ya get it and sometimes ya don't!

The 1978 exhumation I witnessed did not prove it was Jesse Woodson James....It was a very decomposed skeleton. With an Undamaged Bullet. The casket matched the era, but so did every other casket of that era except some had a glass pane and others did not. What I saw was just Bones, Teeth, Bits of Fabric, A Bullet,Rotted Wood, Broken Glass and a Piece or two of Pot Metal? It Proved Nothing...Could of Been Anyone and Anyone can put Anything on a Tombstone.

This is what I told the Tnet member who contacted me....

I have Always had a very difficult time believing that Jesse W. James of Kearney, MO would have Two Brothers in his home that he didn't have a Long Trusting History with, knowing that he had a large, for the time, Bounty on his head.. Then turn his back on them when he knew they had loaded guns. It's hard for me to fathom that the Lengendary Jesse James was shot Dead in the back of the head in His Own Home. None of that makes sense to me. If I buy or sell something I Don't turn my back to people I don't know well. Same way with Friends of Friends/Family if we are in each other's homes. I don't think it's safe.

I Believe the most accepted photo (Posted on this Thread) of JWJ with the receding hairline is the Real...Original if you will Jesse James who rode with Quantrill and was KGC and Brother of Alexander Franklin James.
I Believe This JJ has Been in Many States during and after the Civil War.

Thankfully We Have Tnet Members Here Who Can Help With That. I Have More To Add On His Missouri and Kansas Travels.

I Believe This JJ Home Base Was Missouri.

I Do Not Believe The Man in The Casket or Death Photo is This Jesse James.
I Do Not Believe The Bullet Hole In The Wall in St Joseph, MO was The Kill Shot.
I Do Not Believe That Blood From a Cut or Whatever on The Mans Head in the Death Photo Is An Exit Wound. I've Seen Too Many Real Exit Wounds.

I have a hard time believing people who have something to gain by writing a book that can't be confirmed. Or doing plays based on events that can't be confirmed. Or Having YouTube Channels stating events that can't be confirmed. Or having Blogs without telling more than one side of a story...trying to capitalize on someone's fame. Or using someone that can't be confirmed to sell tickets at their sideshow.

That's just me.

The 1995 exhumation for mtDNA analysis was a Confirmed Match for Known Relatives of this JWJ. After the statute of limitations ran out Stephen Caruso who was involved in the exhumation and testing claimed that the hairs used for testing were Not From The Grave, But from someone in that office. He had some problems with Clay County and Most Believed He Was Just Trying To Get Back At Them Due To This Being So High Profile. I Don't Know. Then He pops up associated with Betty Dorset Duke, who says she was the GGrandaughter of Jesse Woodson James aka James L Courtney. Did he profit from her 3 books....I Don't Know. But, it made me think that he like many others had something to gain by claiming that. I'm Not Discounting BDD yet, Only that they teamed up to challenge the '95 testing.

The James Family Before or at the Height of Robberies Did Not Live A Lavish Life. It doesn't seem odd to me that they would open the farm to tourists or curiosity seekers for .50¢ or "sell" pieces of the Headstone....People were trespassing and chipping pieces off anyway. Why not make a few bucks and never leave the farm?

I think after all the input on the Jesse W. James of Kearney,MO which has All Been Great, reinforces my thoughts from the beginning on him. I Do Not Know For Sure Who Is In That Grave!

Like D...I Feel Like If Anyone Has More To Add on This Jesse James, Please Do!!

Until Then, I'm Thinking We Should Leave For Texas and See What James Lafayette Courtney and John Frank Dalton Have Done.

I'd love to hear others views on Jesse Woodson James of Kearney, MO!!

Once we get back from there let's see about finding the good stuff!

My Offer For Anyone Who Is Well Versed in Markings to Join Me For A Virtual Hunt this October-November In Missouri Still Stands. My Boots On The Ground Along With Otherwise Unobtainable Access and Info For Your Knowledge and We Split Anything Found. I'll Post A Couple Of Pictures Later To Show I'm Not On A Ghost Hunt or Fishing For Leads.

I Did Join This Thread Due To A Member Contacting Me and It Peaked My Interest Again. After Reading The Thread I Thought Why Not All Pool Our Otherwise Unobtainable Access And Information. We All Are Spread Out In Areas That Do Contain History Of The Civil War Era and After. I'm Not The Only One Of Us Who Has That. I Do Believe All Of Us Just Want To Know Fact From Fiction.

I'm Looking Forward To All of Your Views, Questions, Thoughts and Theories! I love reading them! I Think We Will Have Some More Folks From Texas And Oklahoma Joining This Facinating Thread When We Head South. I Personally Would Like To Go East After That. We Have Some Great Members With Stories and Information From Both Areas There.

Kace

I must admit, I am lookin forward to further discussion on that myself, and more input from other members with pertinent information. Thank you, Kace, for bringing this thread back from the dead, it looks to get quite interesting.

 

[Honest Samuel]

If you find bodies in old graves, consider the bodies dead.

 

[Kace]

If you find bodies in old graves, consider the bodies dead.

I knew when I posted that blurb about premature burial, someone would pick out that very small statement out of ALL of the Fantastic Contributors Information and Research...Hello Again Samuel! Good To See You Back!!

I'm guessing you have never heard of it, which is fine. There have been so many things posted on this thread that I had not heard of and found Very Interesting and I'm Thankful Ive learned somethings new to me. I hope you learn something from this.

In the times of Battle, Including the Civil War, Or Heavy Battles Occuring on Domestic or Foreign Soil and The Wounded or Injured were in a coma.... Cholera, Infuenza and other Communicable Diseases where people were "Hurriedly Buried" to prevent Spread of these diseases, Premature Burial was Not as Uncommon as most would think. This is before embalming was widely used or available. People didn't understand how the process of rigor mortis occurred. The same way with getting shot in the head...even today is not always fatal. But in almost all cases the person is knocked out for a period of time, no matter the era.

When this horrifying fact of premature burial became widespread news, again before embalming was widely used or available in battlefield conditions or Rural Areas. Even the Klondike Gold Rush...How many fell deathly ill from disease?Many succumbed to injuries or disease just trying to get there. Embalming was Very Expensive when it first became available, Some saw it as an easy way to make money and were not qualified to do this procedure and not all people could afford it or think it was necessary. Dust to Dust etc. That didn't mean they weren't concerned it could happen though. There is a scientific Name for this fear... Taphophobia. With that came Safety Coffins, One being the Bell that I described... Flags were also used and the rope or wire was attached to the finger through a tube and into the coffin of the presumed dead. FUN FACT: This is where the phrase 'DEAD RINGER' originated.

As I mentioned, my Grandparents would talk about people sitting up with the body until burial which was always pretty quick due to decay and odor. People would hold a mirror or candle under their nose and mouth to check for Any Sign of Life before burial. My 10th grade history teacher told the class many times of working as a grave digger to relocate cemeteries in rural areas for New Hydroelectric Dams and Lakes. He...and I've Never had a reason to doubt him said that on a few occasions it appeared that the buried had not been dead when interred. The diggers came to that conclusion by the position of the remains...on their sides or stomachs, skeletal arms by their skull, scratch marks on the wood remains of the coffin, blood stains on any clothing or wood remaining and broken fingers or nails if they were present and Hair that was still entangled in their skeletal hands.

I'm going to try and post an excerpt concerning premature military burials from 1896 I think that is from Ft Randall about exhuming and relocating soldiers graves there. I hope you find it informative Sam. And again, Please Jump In Here With Any Stories,Photos,Links,Documents or Theories You Have Pertaining To Jesse James, KGC or Any Thoughts On Possible Cashe Stashes and Where You Are Located. This is a Great Party...We Have Had Only One Pooper Show Up For Any Length Of Time ...And He Left. Please Stay and Contribute Any Pertinent Information or Questions You Have. Kace




Someone Please Let Me Know If The Article Does Not Post. Thank You!!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

BEST to get down to TX, then EAST...

 

[franklin]

I knew when I posted that blurb about premature burial, someone would pick out that very small statement out of ALL of the Fantastic Contributors Information and Research...Hello Again Samuel! Good To See You Back!!

I'm guessing you have never heard of it, which is fine. There have been so many things posted on this thread that I had not heard of and found Very Interesting and I'm Thankful Ive learned somethings new to me. I hope you learn something from this.

In the times of Battle, Including the Civil War, Or Heavy Battles Occuring on Domestic or Foreign Soil and The Wounded or Injured were in a coma.... Cholera, Infuenza and other Communicable Diseases where people were "Hurriedly Buried" to prevent Spread of these diseases, Premature Burial was Not as Uncommon as most would think. This is before embalming was widely used or available. People didn't understand how the process of rigor mortis occurred. The same way with getting shot in the head...even today is not always fatal. But in almost all cases the person is knocked out for a period of time, no matter the era.

When this horrifying fact of premature burial became widespread news, again before embalming was widely used or available in battlefield conditions or Rural Areas. Even the Klondike Gold Rush...How many fell deathly ill from disease?Many succumbed to injuries or disease just trying to get there. Embalming was Very Expensive when it first became available, Some saw it as an easy way to make money and were not qualified to do this procedure and not all people could afford it or think it was necessary. Dust to Dust etc. That didn't mean they weren't concerned it could happen though. There is a scientific Name for this fear... Taphophobia. With that came Safety Coffins, One being the Bell that I described... Flags were also used and the rope or wire was attached to the finger through a tube and into the coffin of the presumed dead. FUN FACT: This is where the phrase 'DEAD RINGER' originated.

As I mentioned, my Grandparents would talk about people sitting up with the body until burial which was always pretty quick due to decay and odor. People would hold a mirror or candle under their nose and mouth to check for Any Sign of Life before burial. My 10th grade history teacher told the class many times of working as a grave digger to relocate cemeteries in rural areas for New Hydroelectric Dams and Lakes. He...and I've Never had a reason to doubt him said that on a few occasions it appeared that the buried had not been dead when interred. The diggers came to that conclusion by the position of the remains...on their sides or stomachs, skeletal arms by their skull, scratch marks on the wood remains of the coffin, blood stains on any clothing or wood remaining and broken fingers or nails if they were present and Hair that was still entangled in their skeletal hands.

I'm going to try and post an excerpt concerning premature military burials from 1896 I think that is from Ft Randall about exhuming and relocating soldiers graves there. I hope you find it informative Sam. And again, Please Jump In Here With Any Stories,Photos,Links,Documents or Theories You Have Pertaining To Jesse James, KGC or Any Thoughts On Possible Cashe Stashes and Where You Are Located. This is a Great Party...We Have Had Only One Pooper Show Up For Any Length Of Time ...And He Left. Please Stay and Contribute Any Pertinent Information or Questions You Have. Kace


View attachment 1495575 View attachment 1495575

Someone Please Let Me Know If The Article Does Not Post. Thank You!!

This is a true story. A preacher's wife died or at least they thought she had died. They had the funeral and buried her. Two young boys spied a nice looking ring on her finger. They went that night to dig her up and steal the ring. They could not get the ring off so one decided to cut the finger off. As he began to cut her finger the preacher's wife regained consciousness and the two boys ran away. The preacher's wife walked to her home in her burial clothes and fell as she knocked on the front door. The preacher answered and to his shock and astonishment there laid his wife and was still alive. He put her to bed and called for the doctor to come over and check his wife out. The whole town's people showed up to see this miracle of the preacher's wife still living after being buried. If I find the story I will post it. The story is a lot better than what I have written.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

So... what's in TX...? MAYBE road-side Mason Jar "Money Banks" along the HOOT OWL TRAIL, that JJ & Gangs MAY have traveled on...? Did they stay SOUTH of the Mason-Dixon Line...? Out WEST, beyond the "Free States"... was OAK! Ex-Rebels had CONCLAVES in Mexico City "areas"; did they know Spanish & "Spanish Signs"...? Sounds MORE like KGC!

 

[franklin]

Here is the story: I can't copy and paste so I will type it out sorry if any mistakes.

It was in 1714 that the Rev. Henry Maynadier, a Huguenot, was the Rector of White Marsh Church. The rectory was an old brick mansion on the Blebe Farm, about a mile distant from the church, and the house still stands in excellent repair at this time. The story is that the rector's wife died, and her last wish was that she would be buried with a valuable family ring upon her finger, for it was customary in those days to bury a body without removing jewelry that had been most worn in life.

Two strangers who had attended the funeral had observed this valuable ring and determined to secure it that night; so they went to the old churchyard, for it was then over half a century old, and digging into the grave, removed the coffin, broke it open and attempted to take the ring off the woman's finger. It would not come off, and so a knife was used to sever the joint, and this was the means, with the restoration to fresh, cool air, that revived her, who not being dead, suddenly uttered a cry and sat up in her coffin. Tradition does not say what became of those two grave-ghouls, but it is to be hoped that the fright they received turned them from their evil ways.

As for Mrs. Maynadier, she realized the situation, and though alarmed and ill, she was possessed of great nerve; she drew her shroud about her form and started upon her homeward way.

In the rectory the old clergyman was seated before his hearth alone, doubtless recalling the wife he had won in the long-ago, far across the seas, and whom he had just buried in their adopted land. Sad must have been his memories; deep must have been his sorrow; as he sat there looking into the past and thinking of the loved one in the White Marsh burying ground.

Suddenly he was startled by a fall against the door, followed by a low moan. A fearless man, he sprang to the door and beheld the fainting, shrouded form of his wife. The sight nerved him to action and drove away fear. He raised her in his arms, bore her to her bed, gave her stimulants, chafed her hands, one still bleeding from the cruel cut of the ghoul, and soon restored her to consciousness. Then he called his servants, told them the weird story and sent, to Oxford, five miles distant, for a physician. Mrs. Maynadier recovered from her illness and lived for many years. She and her husband now lie side by side in sweet repose in the old White Marsh Churchyard. Such is indeed is the story from the pen of Richard T. Martin Esq., a worthy member of this Society.

By the way a corpse can turn over face down by itself. At least before embalming that happened a lot of times. The blood settles in the small of the back and hits a nerve which makes the corpse turn over and sometimes roll out into the floor.

 

[franklin]

So... what's in TX...? MAYBE road-side Mason Jar "Money Banks" along the HOOT OWL TRAIL, that JJ & Gangs MAY have traveled on...? Did they stay SOUTH of the Mason-Dixon Line...? Out WEST, beyond the "Free States"... was OAK! Ex-Rebels had CONCLAVES in Mexico City "areas"; did they know Spanish & "Spanish Signs"...? Sounds MORE like KGC!

Montezuma's Treasures were buried in Texas by the KGC with JJ in charge when they went down there to bring out Maximillan. I believe the KGC later removed these treasures to Arkansas. I have a pretty good idea where it is located?

 

[Kace]

GREAT STORY FRANKLIN!!! Thanks For Posting It and Typing It!!!

 

[Kace]

Here is the story: I can't copy and paste so I will type it out sorry if any mistakes.

It was in 1714 that the Rev. Henry Maynadier, a Huguenot, was the Rector of White Marsh Church. The rectory was an old brick mansion on the Blebe Farm, about a mile distant from the church, and the house still stands in excellent repair at this time. The story is that the rector's wife died, and her last wish was that she would be buried with a valuable family ring upon her finger, for it was customary in those days to bury a body without removing jewelry that had been most worn in life.

Two strangers who had attended the funeral had observed this valuable ring and determined to secure it that night; so they went to the old churchyard, for it was then over half a century old, and digging into the grave, removed the coffin, broke it open and attempted to take the ring off the woman's finger. It would not come off, and so a knife was used to sever the joint, and this was the means, with the restoration to fresh, cool air, that revived her, who not being dead, suddenly uttered a cry and sat up in her coffin. Tradition does not say what became of those two grave-ghouls, but it is to be hoped that the fright they received turned them from their evil ways.

As for Mrs. Maynadier, she realized the situation, and though alarmed and ill, she was possessed of great nerve; she drew her shroud about her form and started upon her homeward way.

In the rectory the old clergyman was seated before his hearth alone, doubtless recalling the wife he had won in the long-ago, far across the seas, and whom he had just buried in their adopted land. Sad must have been his memories; deep must have been his sorrow; as he sat there looking into the past and thinking of the loved one in the White Marsh burying ground.

Suddenly he was startled by a fall against the door, followed by a low moan. A fearless man, he sprang to the door and beheld the fainting, shrouded form of his wife. The sight nerved him to action and drove away fear. He raised her in his arms, bore her to her bed, gave her stimulants, chafed her hands, one still bleeding from the cruel cut of the ghoul, and soon restored her to consciousness. Then he called his servants, told them the weird story and sent, to Oxford, five miles distant, for a physician. Mrs. Maynadier recovered from her illness and lived for many years. She and her husband now lie side by side in sweet repose in the old White Marsh Churchyard. Such is indeed is the story from the pen of Richard T. Martin Esq., a worthy member of this Society.

By the way a corpse can turn over face down by itself. At least before embalming that happened a lot of times. The blood settles in the small of the back and hits a nerve which makes the corpse turn over and sometimes roll out into the floor.

That's Very True...I'm friends with two funeral directors and they have told me about the body preparation process to get ready for viewing...I won't get graphic but both of them independently have told me about corpses sitting up in the transport vehicle and funeral home before being prepared and also that some....get very excited about being dead.

 

[Kace]

So... what's in TX...? MAYBE road-side Mason Jar "Money Banks" along the HOOT OWL TRAIL, that JJ & Gangs MAY have traveled on...? Did they stay SOUTH of the Mason-Dixon Line...? Out WEST, beyond the "Free States"... was OAK! Ex-Rebels had CONCLAVES in Mexico City "areas"; did they know Spanish & "Spanish Signs"...? Sounds MORE like KGC!

Hey Reb...For Me, I think Texas is a Need to Visit State due to James L Courtney and John Frank Dalton. Both aka known as Jesse James.

JFD ended up spending his last years in Missouri but passed in Texas. He is Very Full Of Holes, but since he is on our top 3 list and he claimed to be in Oklahoma,Texas Mexico and Brazil..Before coming to Missouri and Meremac Caverns, he is worth a look I think.

James L Courtney of Texas is Also worth a look see I think. He is the gGrandfather of Betty Duke. Let's see what that's about. We have members here who I've talked to and have a wealth of information. I haven't hit on it because they know things much better than I do.

I have been reading interviews and accounts while my family is here on both of them. I've not read any books by anyone who has an agenda. Personally I prefer any reading on controversial persons to be historical documentation by authors who have nothing to gain except relaying history gained from them first hand or by hours of research.

A couple of books I have read and have in my possession do have information on Confederate, Union, KGC, JJ lost or hidden monies and documents. Both of these books were not published in large volume and both were published by small hometown publishers but were written to show documentation and First Hand accounts of events, documented and area lore. The authors are clear to state which is which. They had nothing to gain. Probably most people don't know they ever existed. I will share pertinent info.

If we are going to count or discount any of these guys then we have to follow their trail as far back as possible to get to KGC and the Good Stuff...In My Opinion.

After Texas we Have To Go East...There are too many accounts of KGC, JJ to Not Go There.

I know when we leave Texas and Head East...where is Vevo?? lol it'll be Back to the Future hitting on these other locations but we've got to come to a general consensus on JJ,AFJ, KGC and company to get anywhere on possible hideouts, sentinels and large Cache's. We will have to travel by train, boat and horseback...well, I'll be on my CT90 for that leg! haha

One thing I want to ask you guys pertaining to Sentinels...Do You Guys take that word literally as in a Guard or Guards Watching Over Cashe or Documents?

Do you take Sentinel to, in this day and age to mean that land that is passed through Generations and Each Generation is entrusted to guard these Cashe or Documents?. Or,if there is not a next generation that cares, Native neighbors buy up the land to protect it?

Thanks,
Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

franklin & I know of TWO REBEL Sentinels here in Virginia; W.T. "Buck" Wright & "Bar" (Bear) A. Toley... "Buck" Wright "covered" the Jefferson National Forest area of the BRP, and "Bear" Toley "covered" the Washington National Forest of the BRP. BOTH of us can share what we know... (IMHO) it is a generational thing that "families" do, MAYBE not in terms of "Family Land" kinda thing. I WILL "say" this tho... It is NOW "FED-Land" where Wright had his cabin at Bear Wallow Gap, going into Buchanan, Va. Both were MOUNTAIN MEN, who survived in "the WILDS". Heh... BTW, I am of the opinion, that "Buck" Wright was REALLY "Buck" Frank James (his "nicK" was from his years of service as a CONFEDERATE soldier/DOCTOR from Tennessee). MORE on THAT, later...