Ben Sublett and Guadalupe Peak thread

[BIGSCOTT]

Roth sublett spent the rest of his life looking for his old daddy's mine, he lived his last days in Artesia New Mexico.

 

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[BIGSCOTT]

Judge Arthur Hayes found the wagon train in 1901, while scouting with a man named Robert Brown(probably his ranch foreman) they camped at willow spring at the foot of flag point, the judge spent the rest of his life excavating the area mainly the top of flag point as he found it to be an ancient indian burial site.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

Ben Sublett 1835- 1892

 

[BIGSCOTT]

Some accounts say Old Ben lived his last few years in Barstow Texas

 

[BIGSCOTT]

other search area's for Old Bens mine were El Paso Gap - in the Rustler Hills - 5 to 8 miles north of Rustler Springs in the canyons that run through the foothills of Guadalupe mountains - Rustler Bluffs on the Texas New Mexico border - around Delaware spring - around Burro Spring, which is very near a formation called the chimneys, this location needs some attention i think it was a much more prominent land mark before the valentine earthquake in 1930 i also believe this formation was sacred to the native americans and went by many names amongst them

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

I read up on Ben Sublett many times trying to figure out where he may have gotten the gold and thinking back on those days how people traveled. On average people traveled by horse and wagon about 20 to maybe 30 miles a day. Depending on terrain depends on how far they got. They didn't have improved road systems. Horses need water and rest, so do people. People didn't really travel that much at night from what I have researched, especially if there was no a full moon. In total darkness people can't see much.

Ben traveling by buckboard almost 100 miles could not do it and be gone a couple days to be back in town with the gold. It would take a just about a week! At least 3 days to reach the site at lets say 80 miles at least to Ruster Springs from West side of Odessa then another 3 days back. That is 6 days.

I don't see it is possible to travel that far by horse or wagon and be back in town, only to be gone for a couple of days. Could it be possible he found gold near the Guadalupe Mountains and stashed it closer to Odessa? Who knows, but the stories of how long he was gone doesn't make sense of the stories posted of him traveling that far and be back that short of time frame.

Now being the subject brought up of the Monahans Sand Dunes lost wagon train makes sense as it is only about 30 miles from Odessa and back in those days it would allow someone to travel to and be back in town a couple of days.

 

[stumpjumper]

I grew up in far West Texas back in the 50's/60's. My Aunt and Uncle lived in Odessa and he worked in the oil fields all over that area. When visiting them with my parents we would often take a trip to the sand dunes. When I was either 9 or 10, my older brother, Dad, Uncle and myself happened upon this old half buried wagon train. I remember several of the wagons were very charred but a couple of them only burnt down to the top of the wheels. Several were just boxes with the wheels missing. My brother tried digging one out to see if he could find any arrow heads but quickly gave up when he disturbed a rattlesnake den.

This area was on the side of the dunes closest to Odessa and not very far in from the hard surface desert. I remember my dad saying it looked like they had come from Odessa because the tongues of the wagons were facing west.
We went back to the dunes maybe 3 more times while I lived with my folks and tried finding the train again on 2 different trips but could not. We thought someone had either taken it all or it was covered up with the shifting sands.

I also remember my Uncle saying he could not figure out why anyone would try to take wagons through the sand hills. They either had to be Yankees or got caught up in a sand storm and did not see what they were getting into.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

Hey stumpjumper, thats really great info, i have always wondered if there was anyone still living that had seen the wagon train, some have said the train was headed west and was on the east side of the sandhills.
judge hayes find i always thought was on the west side of the dunes, i have never been able to exactly locate the land mark's, ''willow springs'' or ''flag point'' do you know anything about these?
also how many wagons do you remember seeing?
yeah you couldnt get through those sandhills with just any wagon train, even four wheelers and dirt bike have trouble climbing some of those dunes, hiking will wear you out quick.
if Ben found this wagon train the east side would be more logical, either way he would have been off course for some reason, the timeframe would be correct for Ben to have come upon this massacre soon after it happened, mabey he saw the smoke of the smoldering wagons, hence the inscription on his headstone, "their bodys are buried in the dust, but their names will live on to renew''
judge hayes did alot of research and being a man of means found out that a wagon train carrying a group of dutch goldminers left yuma arizona in the spring of 1873, there are no records of it crossing the pecos at immigrant or popes crossing so they may have been traveling off the beaten path, they were supposedly carrying 477 20 pound ingots of gold.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

Wagons Ho

 

[BIGSCOTT]

this is an article i found on the net i have some different ones at my camp in north texas hope to get up there soon, some of the articles i have are written by the curator of the museum he donated the sruff to, the sul ross museum at the teachers university alpine texas

 

[stumpjumper]

Bigscott,

I do not remember there being a Willow Spring or Flag point mentioned by anyone in our group back then. Nor do I remember seeing any type of spring, just sand, sand and more sand. And some really sharp cactus. Perhaps the spring had dried up by the late 50's.

My Uncle being familiar with the area usually drove some back oilfield roads to get to the dunes. Only once do I remember going through the main entrance when we visited there. The best I can remember is on the trip where we saw the wagons is we used a road that ended near a working "donkey" that was pumping oil. My Mom and Aunt set up two umbrellas for shade and set out the blankets for a picnic. After we ate us guys set off walking the edge of the dunes for awhile then went west into the dunes. We must have walked for 15 to 20 minutes before we saw the top of the first wagon. My uncle was in front and he hollered back for us to come take a look. When we caught up he was already up by some other ones. Best I can remember is we saw at least 15 wagons but don't remember trying to count how many really. At least half of them were missing wheels with two of them for sure with no wheels. The last two were almost completely covered by sand.

The only thing I remember that any of us found was an old shovel head without a handle. My Dad found it about 10 feet off to the side of one of the wagons. He gave it to my Uncle who ended up throwing it into one of the wagons on the way back out.

It has been almost 55 years and I can't be for sure but it seems it was a little over halfway up the side of the dunes from the road to Odessa on the east side to where we parked. Then we walked about 5 minutes to the north before turning into the dunes. Where we turned into the dunes was between two identical low growing scrub cactus. They were about 10 feet apart.

If you go out there watch for rattlers especially after sunset. They are all over that place.

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

I know the dunes is a state park, wonder if one could be able to use a 2 box detector to locate something or some of the possible gold, (If any), without getting caught. Of course there are 2 seperate sand dunes, one in Monahans and one by Kermit and both are west of Odessaso the question would be which ones and depending on time frame could the shruby be grown over the area on where the wagons are/or once were?

 

[BIGSCOTT]

Thanks for the info stumpjumper, sounds like around johnsons windmill, dont know if there is any gold left, but i would love to find it anyhow, yeah harleyman sand from south of monahans to north of jal new mexico with interminten dunes all through, there are two or three different sets up by kermit where people ride motorcycles, the far east side is not in the park boundry, flag point was supposed to be the highest poit around and flat on top, the highest point in the area is blue mountain, or blue mound, but its no mountain just a high place in the road, between notrees and kermit, but right around johnsons windmill there are some fairly high points, i found a old flag windmill, and a new flag windmill on the west side of the dunes, i wonder if there were two seperate wagon trains, i actually first heard this story from one of the park rangers many years ago i doubt he is still living and even back then all the other rangers were weary of people interested in the wagon train, the whole time he told me the story he kept saying you didnt hear this from me, and when he let me copy the newspaper articles he had he said you didnt get those from me,

 

[BIGSCOTT]

I would still like to think there was a mind, over the I kinda got to know and like Old Ben kinda hard for me to think of him diggin through dead peoples stuff for money and gold.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

anybody know how to rotare a pic, my avatar is sideways to

 

[BIGSCOTT]

There was an author named Eugene Anderson wrote some articles for several treasure hunting magazines, said he found the wagon train one time.
several articles on Ben Sublett, and that part of the country.
Anybody know anything about this author or his articles?

 

[Crow]

Bigscott

I am being very lazy of late just sitting back enjoying the topic. However I must comment Just for clarification which direction was this wagon train was heading? Please do continue,,,

Crow

 

[stumpjumper]

The wagons we saw in late 59 or 60, not sure which year, we fairly damaged by fire and most were covered up over half way with sand. There were a couple with the hitching tongues still there and they were pointing to the west. They were the only ones I remember where you could make out the tongue. My dad thought they had left the Odessa area and headed west but who really knows. The wagons were around 15 or so in number and mostly in line with some staggered off to the sides a little ways. I do not remember any kind of defensive formation made with the wagons.

Reading other accounts mentioning much more research than I have done, it seems there may be at least 2 separate wagon trains stuck somewhere out in the sand. There may be one up north of the Monahan's State Park in the dunes close to Kermit. I have not walked that area.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

if the wagons were found on the east side of the dunes i believe they were headed west, if they were found on the west side i believe they were headed east, i say this because i dont believe they would have gotten very far in those dunes, the lady who lived in monahans as a little girl and says they used to hike out to the wagons does not say which side she found them on but says there were letters saying the wagon train was going from fort worth to el paso, and there was a bolt of blue clothe found by judge hayes that matched a peice of clothe (sizzor marks and all) that one of the victims mother had in fort worth, judge hayes said the mining tools found were made in san francisco. judge hayes tracked down a wagon train that left yuma arizona in spring of 1873 or 1874 and was never heard of again, he said he found out they were dutch who had gone to california and struck it rich and were headed back to missouri to buy a large tract of land and start an community.

 

[Culinary Caveman]

Fascinating thread. So much historical corroboration.