Lost Zimmerman Ship of Gold

[Mackaydon]

Crow, muchas gracias for the clarity.

Don Jose, cafe con Kahlua, por favor.

I got sidetracked from the Obregon story when one of my friends told me of his experience at the south tip of Cozumel, in about 1970. At that time (way before all those nearby developments) the lighthouse keeper invited my friend to dinner. After dinner, and after several hours of enjoying tequila provided by my friend (the keeper provided the lobsters), the keeper invited my friend to the back of his small home and dipped his hand into a briny cistern (barrel) and pulled out a handful of cob coins. For fear of discovery, he kept his lifestyle simple: Picture a single light bulb and suspended hammocks for his family. My friend relieved the keeper of several cobs in exchange for a fair amount of currency. I heard the story of a nearby wreck and this keeper daily salvaging only enough to fill a tattered pocket--while he 'fished'. I doubt he ventured more than a couple miles from his home. The story has intrigued me ever since first hearing it, but, like many treasure stories, this teller has never returned to the area.

Don....

 

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[Crow]

It reminds me of treasure yarn from Magdalena Bay Baja? A small treasure of about 270 thousand dollars in Today's values. Perhaps buried near the shore line or near by in 1908?

Anyone Interested in the yarn?

Crow

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Crow, you posted --Anyone Interested in the yarn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I see that you have a distorted sense do humor, OF COURSE


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Crow, you posted --Anyone Interested in the yarn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I see that you have a distorted sense do humor, OF COURSE


Don Jose de La Mancha

Ditto yes please do!

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

It reminds me of treasure yarn from Magdalena Bay Baja? A small treasure of about 270 thousand dollars in Today's values. Perhaps buried near the shore line or near by in 1908?

Anyone Interested in the yarn?

Crow

Yes do tell please. I am very Interested.

 

[Crow]

Okay old this Crow has to go back to school because I found out how much the coins are maybe worth about 1.5 million as collectors items.

But in the interest of not hijacking this very interesting thread about Zimmmerman treasure story. I will post in a New Thread.

Crow

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Whatcha know about Cromwell and Baja Calif Crow, Mackaydon ?? Oro is the sheep expert.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Crow]

Whatcha know about Cromwell and Baja Calif Crow, Mackaydon ?? Oro is the sheep expert.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Amigo ya might want to look at Homer Aschmann's manuscript


All the long-term residents of La Paz speak of the Coromuel, and it is a significant amenity in their environment. Even in summer when all other coastal places on the Gulf of California swelter in stifling heat and humidity the La Paz climate is tolerable and attractive to tourists who exploit the fishing opportunities of the Gulf. There is also widespread agreement that Coromuel is a hispanicization of the English name Cromwell. The fanciful stories of how the name was implanted in Baja California are more varied.


One was made into a radio feature on "Bob Ferris News," KNX, December 5, 1955. He obtained it from the Ruffo family, important and well established merchants in La Paz. The great and clever English pirate Cromwell lay hidden in the Bay of La Paz and used the regular wind to sally forth to the Cape to attack laden Manila galleons as they sailed by. He claimed several prizes and buried treasure somewhere in the sands around the bay. A final feature is that early in this century a great chubasco or tropical cyclone altered the character of the bay, obliterating all landmarks and losing the treasure forever. Other tales have Cromwell becalmed in the bay and being threatened from land and sea by Spanish forces. The afternoon wind permitted him to get out through the narrow channel and elude his pursuers in the darkness. The investigative journalist Fernando Jordan in El Otro Mexico (1951) obtained from old residents the story that the name comes from the sailing vessel Cromwell which used it as a stern wind to exit the bay. No date is given and no one has found a record of a ship named Cromwell in those waters.


Among the scores of English pirates and privateers identified by Peter Gerhard in Pirates on the West Coast of New Spain 1575-1742 the name Cromwell does not appear at all. One suspects, though I have found no documentation for it, that the reference is to Oliver Cromwell. In actuality Cromwell never left the British Isles, but during his rule in the mid-seventeenth century Britain was particularly active in interfering with Spanish shipping and in making incursions in Spanish territories around the Caribbean. That the British leader should become the English pirate incarnate to colonial officials and mariners attempting to defend the long Pacific Coast of the Spanish Empire is not unreasonable. This extended poorly defended frontier, with slow and interrupted overland communications and sea travel often actually blocked by real pirates, was repeatedly swept by rumors of buccaneering raids that were completely fictitious, probably with fictitious captains.
Furthermore, in the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] and twice in the 18[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries English privateers (Spaniards would have identified them as pirates), lying off the southern tip of Baja California, did intercept the Manila Galleon as it stayed close to shore en route to Acapulco. Twice they were successful. It is likely that the fearsome British leader became the bogeyman to Spanish mariners in the Pacific that Sir Francis Drake was in the previous century.


Documentation of the usage of Coromuel, however, has not been discovered from the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] or 18[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries. Permanent Spanish settlement of Baja California began with the Jesuit mission in 1697, and it was at Loreto, too far up the Gulf, an impoverished region, to be of interest to pirates. A mission was not established in La Paz until 1720. Nonetheless the Cape region of Baja California was not an unvisited country. Although unsuccessful, Cortez' attempt at settlement in the La Paz area in 1534-35 had obtained some pearls of high quality. Over the century and a half and more, licensed and unlicensed pearling expeditions worked the gulf Coast at least as far north as Latitude 28[SUP]o[/SUP]N. Although crossing from Sinaloa in small boats was risky, small entrepreneurs who were willing to risk criminal penalties to avoid the royal quinta (20 percent tax) and the hassle of getting licensure were more numerous and regular visitors than the dozen official expeditions. The latter often had the mission of founding a permanent settlement but clearly focused their energies on getting pearls.


In addition, beginning with Thomas Cavendish at Cabo San Lucas in 1587, English and Dutch privateers and pirates in undetermined numbers used any embayment in the Cape region to take on water and wood and careen their ships, badly in need of such attention after the voyage around Cape Horn. Though Cabo San Lucas was the place from which to ambush the Manila Galleon, the protected Bay of La Paz was a favored place for careening ships. These foreigners must have interacted with the pearlers, and there were reported instances of their relieving them of their pearls. Less hostile interactions, especially with illegal pearl seekers, would not have been reported to Spanish authorities, but they would become part of the mariners' lore of the West Coast of New Spain. It is my conclusion that the Coromuel legend arose from these interactions.


As an aside it may be noted that the English and Dutch visitors consistently reported friendly receptions from the local Indians. They wanted peace and quiet to attend to their repairs and limited re-provisioning and could make minor gifts to the Indians. The pearlers, however, were concerned to induce or impress the Indians into the laborious and dangerous activity of diving for pearls. Spanish authorities and, especially after 1697, the missionaries regularly complained bitterly that abuses of the Indians were impeding missionization and making the latter hostile to Spaniards in general. The temporarily successful revolt by the Pericu in 1734 must have stemmed in part from this hostility.

Crow

 

[releventchair]

Pearls ruled for many centuries before diamonds and among many cultures till being cultured made them more readily available. Even inland the effect was great on clams with clammers wiping populations out in some areas, recovering on occasion a pearl and more often misshapen slugs for a willing market and depending on shell type the button market as well.

Despite their great historic and well traveled values, have not heard of any well protected pearls of great age being recovered.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Crow, gentlemen ( if coffee drinkers can be called gentlemen like tea drinkers )

In the 50.s I used to go to the estero fishing, A mexican friend had a house just above Agiabampo ( Google 26* 21' 00.0N, 109* 08' 50.6 W ) This was located north, just below the larger island. I used to cruise in my boat lying on my tummy steering with my toes on the wheel. This was to watch the Dolphins, an occasional shark and rarely a salt water croc . in the crystal clear water of about 10 ft on the ocean side of the northern islands, which were effectively Mangrove swamps full of hungry Gringo eatine skeeters. There for the first time, I actually saw a solid black ball of mosquitos about 20 ft in dia, that gave a horrible humming roar. When that black ball headed towards you, believe me, you ran !

One day I was talking to a local Indian and asked him what were those tel like poles on the southern part of the bay?? "oh those" he answered, ," they are for our people that tried to swim between the islands and were caught by the sharks or the caiman - ( crocodiles ) -we had no boats, so they swam with drift wood. but those further down were for the Ingles that were caught in the Hurricae.

They entered the bay looking for a safe location, but the winds drove then to the south. when they threw out their anchor if didn't help at all. The ship drifted over that island that we call "Bird island" it apparently tore it's bottom out and broke up in the SE direction. All were drowned.

For many years one could see many objects in the bottom then they were gradually covered up. Today you can not see anything. That group of poles is for them

I had established that it was for the missing Cromwell. He had been caught in the NE quadrant of the Hurricane and had been driven to the east, He managed to enter the bay. but he was now in the winds that pushed him further into the bay. The islands, which fronted the ocean, were appro x a mile or so across and had waves coming completely over them Tidal surge ?

The data fit Cromwell's disappearance

Years later when I was repeating the story ro a friend, he became excited and said that he had just bought some land there. There was a communal land clearing movement and in the process they found some Gold coins from that era. He wanted to go over his land with a metal detector, but the models existent could not be used near salt water, so it drug on and was finally forgotten until Crow jarred my memory

That part of the bay is completely dry land now, you can drive a vehicle where a ships crew drowned.

.Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Crow]

Ah Don Jose dealer in fine sock coffee, see what bad influence us tropical tramps are? jarring old memories long forgotten?

Interesting story. It might be an interesting place for the that terror of cannibal seas Kanacki and his Drumbeat to visit?

Crow

 

[Not Peralta]

REAL, lets make a big pot of and get the party started, its Saturday night, come on people get the conversations started. np

 

[Crow]

It be a big party indeed.

Was it 12 million in gold in 1917 prices or 2014 prices

If Germany gave The president of Mexico 12 million of gold in 1917 gold prices 19 dollars an ounce. The Gold if still there in theory at 2014 prices at rough 1300 dollars per ounce they could be at least 821 million dollars in gold today on that shipwreck. If gold is still there?

A rough estimate as the crow flies.....

Don Buddy as any one told you how good you look to day?

Crow

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geeze Crow it's on the tip of my tongue, maybe another cuppa ?? (gracias Hardrock)

Do you realize that a diver can work up to 2hours before decomppression is needed at that depth,, and then go to the surface for a cuppa coffee and a sandwich before going to work for another hour

Now we could send 1/2 of the girls down at a time and---------

Aw, pass the coffee pot Crow, we're getting the Dakota sheep herder nervous.

Jose

 

[Salvor6]

What a great story Don Jose. There is a good chance the Mexican soldiers came back later to check out if there are any bars left. They are not stup!d. Or they could have told others about the incident. After all, it's been over 60 years.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Tis all tooo true Salvore', but for somebody, worth a try. .Pass the coffee por favor' But he did mention that they were not over the ship when they were boarded.

He seemed to be of the opinion that he was hi-jacked as he never could identify the uniforms as being used by any of the Mexican services

There is no record of a Mexican operation in that area.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Not Peralta]

real, its an interesting thing to know just how good of a job they could do recovering items back then even under water recovery's , last night my coffee got cold so I put ice in it,
boy it was good, it was 112 here. np

 

[Crow]

Here is translation of the infamous Zimmmerman telegragh.



And here is part of the British translation.



12 million dollars worth of gold in 1917 prices was very generous indeed. Where in hell would you be able to dispose of that gold secretly without attracting attention?

Crow

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

Very good question Crow.

Here is translation of the infamous Zimmmerman telegragh.

View attachment 1016518

And here is part of the British translation.

View attachment 1016519

12 million dollars worth of gold in 1917 prices was very generous indeed. Where in hell would you be able to dispose of that gold secretly without attracting attention?

Crow

 

[Crow]

It may be worth tracking down descendants of this person?

This lone German seaman walked over the border from Baja Mexico to the United State. 8 days after the Zimmerman Telegraph was made public. Was he an unknown survivor of the shipwreck?

View attachment 1016574

Crow