The mystery of the lost Jewish golden Menorah (Lampstand)

[Crow]

Hello TT Hardluck had this picture below sent to him that is alleged to be in the basement of the old bishops summer Palace that became a Carthusian monastery at Avignon. The whole site has strange markings through the site. Was it at one time the repository for Menorah?




The site the monastery Church is built on is above a small cave with spring. It was a sacred Visigoth site previous to becoming a French Papal Summer Palace.

Crow

 

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[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT Hardluck had this picture below sent to him that is alleged to be in the basement of the old bishops summer Palace that became a Carthusian monastery at Avignon. The whole site has strange markings through the site. Was it at one time the repository for Menorah?


View attachment 1058708


The site the monastery Church is built on is above a small cave with spring. It was a sacred Visigoth site previous to becoming a French Papal Summer Palace.

Crow

Thanks Crow. It is a good info and would further reinforce the papal/avignon/Visigoth lead for the Menorah.One interesting particular in the picture is that the Menorah has solid base not tripod ...
tintin treasure

 

[tintin_treasure]

One thing about Alaric the Visigoth is that he was actually an Arian Christian (he was part of the Roman army initially though later parted).Hence some put it that he did not actually destroy Christian and possibly Judaic sites in Rome as he did on the Pagan sites of Rome...i.e. the sack was a sack of pagan Rome. Some point on the Vandals that came later for the total Vandalizing of Rome. Hence if we buy the idea Alaric did not destroy Judeo-Christian related things ,then for relics like the sacred Menorah either he left them in Rome out of reverence or taken them as war trophy but not destroying them for thier gold etc as the likes of the Vandals would have done .Since he died shortly in south Italy on is way to Africa and Sicily,he was buried with some treasure. Assuming the Visigoth did not bury the Menorah with him and again assuming his successor was also reverent for Judeo Christian relics , the Menorah would have survived for some time with the Visigoths who went to gaul in present day France and settled there after the death of thier king Alaric.Hence with this context in mind as well, this papal/avignon/visigoth thesis of Crow makes strong sense to check out.

tintin treasure

 

[tintin_treasure]

One thing about Alaric the Visigoth is that he was actually an Arian Christian (he was part of the Roman army initially though later parted).Hence some put it that he did not actually destroy Christian and possibly Judaic sites in Rome as he did on the Pagan sites of Rome...i.e. the sack was a sack of pagan Rome. Some point on the Vandals that came later for the total Vandalizing of Rome. Hence if we buy the idea Alaric did not destroy Judeo-Christian related things ,then for relics like the sacred Menorah either he left them in Rome out of reverence or taken them as war trophy but not destroying them for thier gold etc as the likes of the Vandals would have done .Since he died shortly in south Italy on is way to Africa and Sicily,he was buried with some treasure. Assuming the Visigoth did not bury the Menorah with him and again assuming his successor was also reverent for Judeo Christian relics , the Menorah would have survived for some time with the Visigoths who went to gaul in present day France and settled there after the death of thier king Alaric.Hence with this context in mind as well, this papal/avignon/visigoth thesis of Crow makes strong sense to check out.

tintin treasure

Of-course one would debate me the Vandals were also Arian Christians like the Visigoths. But they were more destructive I guess

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT Alaric successor was Ataulf who was an Arian Christian Also. Arians do not believe in the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, which holds that God encompasses three persons in one being. He stopped heading south and returned and headed into south France where he capture the pagan Gallic cities of Narbonne and Toulouse in doing so he would crossed the main river crossing Avignon to get there around 413/414. He then pushed later in Northern Spain. All in that region for time came under the control of the Visigoths. Strange enough early Christian sites nearly always was built over pagan sites such as springs etc.. The spring at Avignon was one such site had once been a pagan site so its possible the cave and spring became Christianized with relic from the Old Testament, Solomon's Menorah perhaps?

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT Alaric successor was Ataulf who was an Arian Christian Also. Arians do not believe in the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, which holds that God encompasses three persons in one being. He stopped heading south and returned and headed into south France where he capture the pagan Gallic cities of Narbonne and Toulouse in doing so he would crossed the main river crossing Avignon to get there around 413/414. He then pushed later in Northern Spain. All in that region for time came under the control of the Visigoths. Strange enough early Christian sites nearly always was built over pagan sites such as springs etc.. The spring at Avignon was one such site had once been a pagan site so its possible the cave and spring became Christianized with relic from the Old Testament, Solomon's Menorah perhaps?

Crow

Thanks Crow for filling the details,,,it is worth a lead I would say and I am of the opinion whatever christian affiliation they had,they would be reverential to Bible related relics like the Menorah .I would disagree with the Israeli professor who is of the opinion that the people who sacked Rome may have burned the Menorah for its gold.Such things happened in history when Christians siezed pagan sites or vice versa,but it would be unlikely that God believing Alaric would have done that.He would just have taken it as war trophy.If his successor was also Arian Chrisian as you said he might have kept it as his treasure as well.

tintin treasure

 

[tintin_treasure]

But if the Papal/avignon/visigoth theory is strong, we should not forget the possibility that those popes whom we allege inherited ancient treasures from the visigoth area and era may have taken the Menorah back to Rome rather than bury it along with other treasures as far as the legend goes.It would have been very interesting for a Pope to return to Rome with the biblical Menorah as his treausre. Hence we come back to square 1 ..i.e to the Vatican Menorah conspiracy theory ..But our detour is not the same as others. As others only assume that the Vatican inherited the Roman era treasures.In our case we went to south Italy first,then to France,several centuries pass and back again to Rome.

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT while there is many conspiracies against the church some have some credence others do not. I do not personally think it is in the hands of the Vatican. I think other event of history separated the treasure of Jerusalem.. you know there was a schism in western church for example in 325. Constantine the great Holy Roman emperor called the council of Nicea 325. Deemed Arian Christianity as heresy and burned the books of there teaching and destroyed anything the deemed to be a threat to titrinitarian ideologies.



Crow

 

[doc-d]

Ahh yes, the Arian heresy, about the entire church bought into that one before the truth was established……the church has battled heresies on a regular basis, including our present day with the truly demonic Vatican II

 

[tintin_treasure]

Thanks Crow, True the teachings of Arius were deemed heretic evaluated from the teachings of scriptures.There are some sects even today who have similar view of Arian theology who are not considered as true adherents of Christianity (Like the Jehova witnesess). But I put the possibility of the Menorah in the Vatican based on the outline we did. The Menorah was taken from Rome in 410 AD by the Visigoths to France,we put forward the theory that the Visigoths may not have burned the Menorah based on thier religious background.You remarkably put the later connection of Avignon/Visigoth/Popes, also demonstarted by a drawing of the Menorah in the cave under the Monastery. Later the popes who were in Avignon for some decades in the 14th centiry returned to Rome and were alleged to have buried some treasure in Avignon.Then I put forward the natural thoery and a potential motive that if the popes in Avignon had access to the menorah left by Visigoths of the bygone era,they would have taken it to the Rome ultimately the Vatican.It is a theory.But I dont see how the Nicea 325 AD church event affect the destiny of the Menorah.As it was only potentially robbed in AD 410 and the Nicea was assembled earlier in 325.
If the Visigoths had taken it and didnt burn it for gold we have only a triangle theory here
-Either it is buried with Alaric in Cosenza italy
-Either it is buried in Avignon by the later popes who buried ancient treasures in the Visigoth area/or still left or buried by Visigoths in the Avignon area and the popes didnt get it at their time there
-or the popes later took it to Rome from Avignon hence the Vatican

All the the above three are possibilities if we adhere to the Visigoth possession of AD 410 and their taking it to the Avignon area.

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT and Doc and thing we may need to factor other advents going on at the time such as the black death. Many of the Popes in France died of plague thus travel for many was restricted and for others trying to flee the black death.



That providing if the Menorah was still in Avignon could of been lost and forgotten as secret of its location died with those who died of the plague.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

thanks Crow. Such ''nuisance parameters'' usually overlooked could obscure a trail in history.. alas.

p..s Did you see a strange thing how the Black death didnt touch a big circular are in what appears to be present day Poland ( as I see Krakow).

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

But the previous post is only one possibility. there are of course many Another factor is gradual Visigoths journey as they moved west. Some of loot could moved with them progressively as they moved west? Perhaps finally into Spain?



Crow

 

[Crow]

Hello tt Yes I did with interest as well as around Milan and around the western Pyrenees. It makes ay wonder what areas did to be free of the plague?

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

But the previous post is only one possibility. there are of course many Another factor is gradual Visigoths journey as they moved west. Some of loot could moved with them progressively as they moved west? Perhaps finally into Spain?

View attachment 1059106

Crow

that is also a possibility...but we need some kind of menorah legend or drawing etc rumored in spain for any lead. But Avignon seems to have that for the moment...Another source of information is to investigate the Visigoths Germanic literature for any scant mention...that was actually how it was found that Alaric died and was buried under a river in south Italy.There is only a short reference in an old germanic historical doc.

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

TT treasure hunters in the golden age of treasure hunting was the 1930's searched for Alaric grave under as river that was allegedly diverted. Scholars can't agree on the exact location that allegedly was done. There are several sites claiming to be the burial site of Alaric.

As for Spain some Visigothic treasure has been found......As well as traces in Languedoc region of southern France.

More on this later. I have a plane to catch.

Crow

 

[doc-d]

Senor Crow, buen viaje, vaya con Dios mi amigo

 

[tintin_treasure]

thanks Crow. I once saw the supposed diverted river called Busentus in Cosenza Italy. It is now a really dirty river with lots of trash around( at least the part spanning the city) and I do not see how one can conduct a real exploration in the present state.True there have been past explorations that resulted with nothing and expert theories abound. However there was a recent news that there was a row involving some amateur archaeologists who after some study suggested a place near the river to be seen by senior pro archaeologists,then after some time the land the amateurs pointed was sold by the municipality to a friend of one of the pro archaeologists who saw the place at the request of the amateurs.The amateurs then called foul play and the case was in court. Strange business.

Have a nice trip Crow

tintin treasure

 

[grantler]

Hi tintin Treasure ,
The lost Gold of Rome by Daniel Costa (The Hunt for Alaric´s Treasure )
don´t know if it is worth the money ? Don´t have it .
grantler

 

[tintin_treasure]

thanks grantler. It might summarize past efforts on the quest for the treasure I presume. Now I remember where I read the story of the row of the amateurs and pros.
It was the author you mentioned Daniel Costa ,who started a thread on the subject and posted that news and his book title.here is the post

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/r...asure-alaric-conqueror-rome-near-cosenza.html

tintin treasure