The Lost Carson Mine

[sdcfia]

Another thought has occurred to me about Carson's vein, and that is he might have cleaned it out already. The last trip he made into Silverton he wasn't carrying much, and its hard to believe a guy would walk away from a rich surface outcropping after putting out the effort to get up that high on foot without getting as much as you could. Its also possible he had to leave some ore behind he had already broken out of the vein, if he wasn't feeling well enough to make enough trips up and down the watershed to retrieve it all. That may explain why people later found float down Twilight Creek, because it got washed down from a pile of ore he left behind.

I finally dug out my copy of Treasures of the San Juans and reread the Carson story. My memory of my friend Buddy's version of the story (Ouray 1974) is quite sketchy at best - I don't even remember him identifying "Carson" by name, but he did talk about the assay and the Needles. I do remember that he had looked himself for this outcropping as a younger man and firmly believed it was still waiting to be rediscovered. This could merely reflect the optimism of a seeker, but Buddy was very savvy, and if his own high-grade mine that he was still working at the time I met him is any indication, knew what he was talking about.

A couple observations from the book regarding the diggings being worked out. The final summer Carson worked the outcropping was very short due to his health problems, as you indicated. Even so, he still managed to bring a smaller amount of very-rich ore into Silverton, and shortly thereafter reportedly died of a heart attack. If true, this does not indicate that the outcropping was worked out, but does suggest Carson could have returned to the diggings again but simply died beforehand. Also, Juan Quintana, the sheepherder who claimed to have found, collapsed and dispersed Carson's pole shelter near the diggings, also claimed that he carried out a major effort to hide the outcropping at the same time. This doesn't mean that the outcropping might not have been found later by somebody else, but if Quintana's story is true, does suggest that it was still viable at the time Carson died.

 

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[huntsman53]

Something interesting to note about the ore Carson found is that it could be detected with a metal detector due to the large grains of free gold in it. And if there is still float in the Twilight Creek watershed, it could also be located with metal detectors. When you look at how far down the watershed you have to go from the head to reach Lime Creek, you realize the vein/outcropping must have originally been fairly large, and must have been exposed to erosional forces eons ago for a large sample of it to reach the mouth of the creek at Lime. As I posted earlier, a fist size sample of this ore was found on Twilight Creek Near Lime Creek that assayed at thousands of dollars per ton at gold prices in the early 1900's. As well, there are several places coming down that watershed where you find low lying areas where small ponds and pools form, as well as benches left behind as erosion occurred over thousands of years. All such location cry out for thorough searching with metal detectors, which would probably produce more such samples of rich sugar quartz impregnated with free gold grains. If large pieces reached the mouth at the lime, it is a sure thing more remains trapped in the watershed above...

Very interesting and intriguing story and legend! Thanks for sharing!

So far, I have read to this point and just had to comment. I was wondering if anyone was going to make the point of using metal detectors as the use of them as well as panning were the first things to come to mind once you noted the finds on Twilight Creek above the confluence with Lime Creek. One could either start at the bottom and work their way up until no more Gold is either found with the metal detector or Gold pan or they could start at the head and work their way down until Gold is found. In my way of thinking, if I was committed to this adventure and I wish that I was, I would retrieve every gram or ounce of Gold that I could on the way up. Once the Gold ran out, I would start looking upslope from the last place I found Gold, paying special attention to any drainages and outcroppings. Since there is Gold in Twilight Creek, it is also likely to be found in one of the drainages upslope from where the last Gold was found. Sort of like following the Yellow Brick Road and you are the Wizard!

I would love to go on an adventure such as this but if I could ever afford to do so, I would have to acclimate myself to the thinner air for a few months or more!


Frank

 

[UncleMatt]

One thing you have to remember is that to cover up a vein with dirt, as Quintana claimed to have done, there must be some dirt around readily at hand to do so with. I doubt Quintana had a shovel with him, as sheepherders had little use for such implements. If you have ever traveled up to such locations in deteriorating granite, there is little dirt to be had, and what is there is a thin veneer over the bedrock. Now you can find large grain silt on occasion, but it is often swept away each year by the snow melt off in the spring.

This leads to two relevant observations: 1) That if dirt was readily at hand for Quintana to use, it would help indicate a search area where there was dirt around and not just bedrock. 2) The amount of dirt placed over the vein to hide it was probably fairly thin and sparse, and may have been washed away since Quintana's time frame. Further support for conclusion #2 is that Carson claimed he always covered the vein while he was away, yet Quintana was able to see it just by walking by it! If a dirt covering put there by Carson had washed away in a couple of decades, that means any dirt covering put in place by Quintana also washed away, and the vein is once again exposed!

Anyone care to dispute this, please do so and provide your reasoning. Its always welcome.

 

[lastleg]

Levi's mine was well above timberline and getting to it had to be done without packstock.
He carried his provender and tools on his back. He made shelter with poles leaning on the
rock ledge probably with a canvas roof against the almost daily short storms that pelted
hail on anyone in the open.

He only worked the paystreak and left little tailings but I would be alert for out-of-place
rock heaps. He may have just tossed the worthless stuff down the steep slope. The cut
poles may still be there even after over a hundred years at that altitude but would be
scattered. Also Quintana mentioned tin cans at the site. Another clue.

 

[sdcfia]

One thing you have to remember is that to cover up a vein with dirt, as Quintana claimed to have done, there must be some dirt around readily at hand to do so with. I doubt Quintana had a shovel with him, as sheepherders had little use for such implements. If you have ever traveled up to such locations in deteriorating granite, there is little dirt to be had, and what is there is a thin veneer over the bedrock. Now you can find large grain silt on occasion, but it is often swept away each year by the snow melt off in the spring.

This leads to two relevant observations: 1) That if dirt was readily at hand for Quintana to use, it would help indicate a search area where there was dirt around and not just bedrock. 2) The amount of dirt placed over the vein to hide it was probably fairly thin and sparse, and may have been washed away since Quintana's time frame. Further support for conclusion #2 is that Carson claimed he always covered the vein while he was away, yet Quintana was able to see it just by walking by it! If a dirt covering put there by Carson had washed away in a couple of decades, that means any dirt covering put in place by Quintana also washed away, and the vein is once again exposed!

Anyone care to dispute this, please do so and provide your reasoning. Its always welcome.

I wouldn't argue with your logic. However, remember that the Cornelius/Marshall narrative credits Quintana with using "rocks and dirt" to cover the workings. Depending on the lay of the workings, yes, the dirt and smaller rocks may well have washed away from a more vertical-tending work area. But on a more horizontal surface, the dirt and rocks could have remained, even settled and compacted over the years. The fact is, we don't know for sure what the outcropping looks like. Quintana may have merely noticed a pile of loose rock in otherwise tight ground after finding the pole shelter, and went to investigate. Presumably, the only ones who knew were Carson and Quintana.

We have to assume that many searchers have searched the north slope of the West Needles since Carson died. If the golden outcropping is covered, it will be extremely difficult to locate, IMO. Even if the workings are exposed, in that country, they will still be very hard to spot.

 

[KANACKI]

I would agree except for my personal experience with such holes. I have found many in existing watersheds in the area, but not one had any gold in it. I think what happens is that any gold that falls into these holes gets ground up so fine that it end up getting washed out. And this includes holes over a foot deep down through solid granite bedrock. I have seen holes you would swear have been created by huge drill bits, but they are really created by rocks spinning in place in the current. And when the original spinning rock wears away, more rocks fall in the hole that also end up spinning and digging it deeper. I usually find gravel and very fine sand at the bottom, nothing more. I have cleaned out over a dozen, using my metal detector and panning the fines, and never found any colors at all. Its frustrating that such holes do not tend to capture gold!

Hello Uncle Matt I tend to agree with you in that regards.

What our fine feathered friend forgets is the sheer volume of water and speed it comes off the Mountain. Crow thinks along the lines of his Australian environment as water volumes can be less with not the high inclines to speed up water flow over such potholes.

Kanacki

 

[UncleMatt]

Good points all! I would only add to sdcfia's comments that in the story Carson said the vein was an outcropping of all "pay dirt", most likely meaning all he had to do was use his pick to knock chunks of the sugar quartz off, and throw it in his bags. I never got the impression from the story that he had to dig or deal with tailings in any way, but those details may have been omitted as the story was passed around.

 

[UncleMatt]

Hello Uncle Matt I tend to agree with you in that regards.

What our fine feathered friend forgets is the sheer volume of water and speed it comes off the Mountain. Crow thinks along the lines of his Australian environment as water volumes can be less with not the high inclines to speed up water flow over such potholes.

Kanacki

I couldn't agree more! I have been up in the high country when it rained so hard that the whole area became one big series of waterfalls, the trail became a creek, and the noise was like a freight train! Last summer I had just arrived at the top where I intended to camp, and a hailstorm started before I could get a tent erected. It was like having someone slowly dump a bucket of ball bearings on your head! People who have not experienced such deluges in the high country may lack the proper frame of reference.

 

[UncleMatt]

I truly appreciate all the reality based comments being posted here! As far as I'm concerned you guys have made this thread the best one going right now!

 

[Crow]

I truly appreciate all the reality based comments being posted here! As far as I'm concerned you guys have made this thread the best one going right now!

Hello Matt on the contrary, thank you for bringing up a new and refreshing topic.

Crow

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Matt on the contrary, thank you for bringing up a new and refreshing topic.

Crow

I could not agree more!

Kanacki

 

[sdcfia]

I couldn't agree more! I have been up in the high country when it rained so hard that the whole area became one big series of waterfalls, the trail became a creek, and the noise was like a freight train! Last summer I had just arrived at the top where I intended to camp, and a hailstorm started before I could get a tent erected. It was like having someone slowly dump a bucket of ball bearings on your head! People who have not experienced such deluges in the high country may lack the proper frame of reference.

Don't forget your hardhat next trip. Ha ha. Three friends, a dog and myself climbed to the top of Mt Sneffels back in summer, 1974. Even though the summer thunderstorms were building many miles away, the effect was felt where we were. The top of Sneffels is a solid pile of broken rock. Suddenly at the top, we heard a deafening buzzing sound - static electricity vibrating the rocks. Sparks were flying off the copper bracelet I was wearing. All our hair, including the dog's, was straight up. It was a quick celebration at the top and a speedy descent to a lower elevation. Yes, things can get weird above timberline.

 

[UncleMatt]

I recently discovered geologists talking about how lightning plays a central role in erosional processes in the mountains. Lightning strikes create fractures in high mountain rock formations that allow water to penetrate and then freeze, breaking apart solid rock formations much more rapidly than would otherwise occur.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I recently discovered geologists talking about how lightning plays a central role in erosional processes in the mountains. Lightning strikes create fractures in high mountain rock formations that allow water to penetrate and then freeze, breaking apart solid rock formations much more rapidly than would otherwise occur.

Man learned from such, too. Frontier families did the same... by cracking big rocks with sledge hammers; letting rocks freeze "over winter"; then pouring cold water in the cracks... OLD roads through the mountains were formed!

 

[Crow]

Man learned from such, too. Frontier families did the same... by cracking big rocks with sledge hammers; letting rocks freeze "over winter"; then pouring cold water in the cracks... OLD roads through the mountains were formed!

Reb that was a very ancient method of working stone.

Crow

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Reb that was a very ancient method of working stone.

Crow

YEP! Worked, tho...

 

[UncleMatt]

Some friends of mine still living in Durango full time said they may hit Lime Creek Road to take some photos and get a feel for what a twilight creek ascent might be like. I'll post as soon as I get those from them.

 

[KANACKI]

Hola Uncle Matt

I await with interest those photographs. Once again thank you for the interesting topic.

Kanacki

 

[UncleMatt]

I wouldn't count on them any time soon, though, my friends are pretty lazy.

 

[UncleMatt]

Welp, my friend tried to access Lime Creek from Lime Creek Road and got stuck in deep snow covering the road. He didn't get but a few hundred feet from US-550. Guess we will have to wait on photos until things melt off a bit. To be continued....