These Bars Should Not Exist!!!

[cactusjumper]

As you have pointed out a few times, Kino had no personal wealth.

And as a company man in the truest sense of the word, accepting something personally inscribed to him instead of to the society is something he would have.......... abhorred.

deducer,

As with all things concerning the Jesuits, they were, usually, the best managers of the various Spanish enterprises which they often oversaw. Father Kino was simply a conduit for the funds that passed through his hands and was used for the benefit of the orders work. He kept nothing for himself, other than what he could carry on his back or on his horse. That being said, I believe he controlled fortunes and distributed those funds where needed.

It's possible that Kino never even saw the bars that were inscribed with his name, assuming there were such, legitimate, things. As Father Kino did a great deal of traveling, I can see where it's more than possible, even likely, that others handled the day to day business for his mission, including receiving funds for goods and services provided to the Spanish miners and others.

I am not saying that there were legitimate gold and silver bars marked with Kino's name, only that there could be logical reasons for such things to exist, beyond his being involved in mining himself. I would think you would agree with that possibility.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[fetcher]

I read most of this thread, and been on this forum since 2011. Gollum seems like he does his research from some of the posts of his I've read over the years. Anyhow, I decided to look out in the desert near the Jesuit missions. What do you guys think of this picture? Now, I know it's modern, but it is literally in the middle of the desert.

 

[fetcher]

Better yet, what is this? There seems to be a fence nearby, but something in the water. I zoomed out and covered a good 10 miles in every direction, and there is absolutely nothing. Just mountains and small dirt paths.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Joe, Tayopa and the Planchas de Plata were merely mentioned to show that both had enormus quantities of native silver, Tayopa itself,just stopped it out with two enomous stopes, one above the other, some two hunderd meters long. You can imagine how the King would have ruled by his ruling on the planchas de Plata This is what the Jesuts were hiding. and why. Yes, ole greed took over.on both sides. This was when Silver was on par with Gold.

This is why they went to elaborate schemes to store it at the Caballo mts depositories, until a waiting Jesuit ship anchored near Matamoross could be loaded by floating it down the Rio Del Norte, instead of simply shipping it to Mexico City for refinning and taxation..

I mentioned just how would the value of the presumed Kino bars be determined,, they were Dore' bars,they had no way to refine the metal on the frontier

 

[froggy]

Look at 31 43 33.15 -110 24 00.39 in Google Earth.. I found out by walking in that this is a water catchment. For getting rain to the cows.
Looks like what you are looking at. But your mileage may very

 

[Injunbro]

I read most of this thread, and been on this forum since 2011. Gollum seems like he does his research from some of the posts of his I've read over the years. Anyhow, I decided to look out in the desert near the Jesuit missions. What do you guys think of this picture? Now, I know it's modern, but it is literally in the middle of the desert. View attachment 1341487

Solar-powered water pump & tank. The next picture you posted is a tanque (pronounced 'tank'), a pond to catch & hold rainwater for cattle. Both are very common in remote areas here in the southwest where cattle have grass but no water.

 

[deducer]

Per Holibird's report - citing the work of Richards, Craig, Moulton, Dana, et al, and the geochemical analysis of a couple "Kino bars" - his conclusion was a warning to those who considered investing in the "artifacts":

"The Kino ingots were placed into the American marketplace more than six decades ago amidst a cloud of uncertainty and questions. Their origin has carefully been kept secret, letting rumors fly in the wake of clever stories, most rendered without a shred of proof.

The men or man who made them carefully placed them into the numismatic world. Over time, other suspicious precious metal ingots were also placed into the numismatic world. The place of origin of many of these questionable or fake ingots was Arizona. The men responsible continued to improve their techniques and place more bad ingots into circulation.

The chemistry of the ingots underlies this fact, given that the association of the specific metals contained herein are not natural. It is further emphasized by the direct tie of this specific alloy to a man made, constructed metal alloy used in modern times, thought to be developed after about 1940. These two bars were clearly made in a manner to look like silver, feel like silver, and weigh like silver. They were thus made to deceive."

The authenticity of the Saeta and other mission bars are undetermined, but the fate of the Kino bars is clear: "caveat emptor". This won't dissuade the true believers, but it might give pause to those whom are seeking the straight skinny.

Hi Steve,

Sorry I forgot to respond to this, but yes I would agree that Kino bar is an absolute fake. You can see something is amiss right off the bat. Whoever forged this bar messed up on the S F, which are the initials of another well-known Jesuit (in which case it would have been SFX, or Xavier S F.). While Kino's middle name is Francisco, his first name was Eusbio (Eusebius). As far as I know, 1697 in the Kino chronology was not noteworthy other than his entrada to the CG ruins and that seems like an odd thing to commemorate, unless I'm missing something.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Steve,

Sorry I forgot to respond to this, but yes I would agree that Kino bar is an absolute fake. You can see something is amiss right off the bat. Whoever forged this bar messed up on the S F, which are the initials of another well-known Jesuit (in which case it would have been SFX, or Xavier S F.). While Kino's middle name is Francisco, his first name was Eusbio (Eusebius). As far as I know, 1697 in the Kino chronology was not noteworthy other than his entrada to the CG ruins and that seems like an odd thing to commemorate, unless I'm missing something.

deducer,

I did not believe this story from the start. Nothing has come along to convince me otherwise. I don't think you are missing anything.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Joe for taking the time to hunt up a few sources for that alternate version of history, which has Spanish miners operating in Pimeria Alta in Kino's time. I would point out that these are MODERN authors, and we do not have their sources. It is also remarkable that Kino never mentioned any such trade operating between his missions and any Spanish miners at all. On the other hand, in a secret letter from Kino we know about a shipment of silver he sent that got lost somehow. Must have been from selling all those beans and squash to those un-named Spanish miners that were working in northern Sonora and southern Arizona in the late 1690s and early 1700s, which were later misconstrued by the local Indians into the padres instead?

The Hispanic population of southern Arizona at the time the Franciscans entered the region was almost entirely concentrated at Tubac. Apart from members of the garrison, their dependents and their servants, the settlement in 1767 included over two hundred persons belonging to thirty-four households. The total population must have been close to five hundred, the largest it would ever beduring the Spaish and Mexican periods.

Hispanic Arizona 1536-1856, James E Officer pp 47

I put the sentence in bold, it is not that way in the book, and would point out for our readers whom do not post that the Franciscans entered the region in 1768, the year after the Jesuits were expelled. There was apparently no Spanish mining community present in the region, only a military post that served to protect the frontier and Indians from the hostiles. I have no doubt that at some missions, some level of trading must have occurred, but doubt this occurred in northern Sonora and southern Arizona at all until well after the Jesuits were gone.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

as usal, excelllent posting Oro. Beth must be pushing you.

 

[cactusjumper]

Thank you Joe for taking the time to hunt up a few sources for that alternate version of history, which has Spanish miners operating in Pimeria Alta in Kino's time. I would point out that these are MODERN authors, and we do not have their sources. It is also remarkable that Kino never mentioned any such trade operating between his missions and any Spanish miners at all. On the other hand, in a secret letter from Kino we know about a shipment of silver he sent that got lost somehow. Must have been from selling all those beans and squash to those un-named Spanish miners that were working in northern Sonora and southern Arizona in the late 1690s and early 1700s, which were later misconstrued by the local Indians into the padres instead?


Hispanic Arizona 1536-1856, James E Officer pp 47

I put the sentence in bold, it is not that way in the book, and would point out for our readers whom do not post that the Franciscans entered the region in 1768, the year after the Jesuits were expelled. There was apparently no Spanish mining community present in the region, only a military post that served to protect the frontier and Indians from the hostiles. I have no doubt that at some missions, some level of trading must have occurred, but doubt this occurred in northern Sonora and southern Arizona at all until well after the Jesuits were gone.

Roy,

Thank you for your reply.

I believe you are mistaken about Spanish mining and when they started around Tubac. From what I have read, such activity took place from the 1600s.

[Abandoned Mine History The earliest indication of mining in Arizona may be as old as 1000 BC when inhabitants of the area were already using turquoise, coal, clay and many minerals in their daily life. Even before the Spaniards came to the southwest, Native Americans were using copper and turquoise to fashion jewelry that was traded over much of North America.

With the arrival of the Spaniards in the 16th century, mining increased in the southwest. Coronado searched for the Seven Cities of Cibola, fabled to be constructed of gold. Although he never found these cities he opened up the area for further exploration. Several small gold and silver mines were established, especially in the Tubac area but with the pueblo revolt in the 1680's mining expansion was limited.] https://asmi.az.gov/abandoned-mine-history

It's more than possible that I've misunderstood the meaning of your post, so you may have to do a little clarification for me.

As for Professor Radding's sources, they go on for many pages and would be more work than I care to take at this time.....listing them. I'm more than satisfied with her qualifications and the nature of her research. Many of her sources are not "MODERN authors", but from the era. I believe I have two copies of "Wandering Peoples" but, with a cursory search, can only come up with the one that was personalized to me. If I find the other copy, I will be happy to send it to you.

A number of inexpensive, paperback, copies can be found here:

0822318997 - Wandering Peoples: Colonialism, Ethnic Spaces, and Ecological Frontiers in Northwestern Mexico, 1700-1850 Latin America Otherwise by Radding, Cynthia - AbeBooks

Hardcover copies are much harder to find.

Professor Hu-DeHart's credentials and sources are also impressive and not all modern-day authors. Many of the early sources I have in my own collection, are the same sources these ladies have used.

Hope all is well with you folks and you are getting better every day.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks Joe, and last point first, there may have been some miscommunication(s) about health problems here. Beth had some throat surgery for scar tissue due to acid reflux. I had some minor back surgery. The thing which was posted on FB about supporting a cancer patient had been posted for a friend that has a friend with cancer, in support - this led to a string of well wishes and miscommunications in the belief that either Beth or myself has cancer or some other terribly serious health condition. This is not the case, the thing on FB was for support for a friend of a friend not either of us, and we do have a relative that has just completed treatments for cancer as well but all is well here.

Also thank you for that kind offer, I would sooner read it in your library however! :cheesy grin: I would point out that these authors, for all their respective credentials, are modern authors, and were clearly working on the history of the region, not focused on any Jesuit mining activity. In fact I am not aware of any historian that has done so. The only authors I know of that have researched the mining history of southern Arizona have attributed the earliest activities in mining to the Jesuit priests. We posted this in another thread some time ago. I suppose we could re-hash all that, but it would serve no purpose; on the other hand, as your sources are claiming there were thriving Spanish mining communities in southern Arizona/northern Sonora as early as the late 1690s (Kino's period) I would like to see some documentation of this. Surely there will be records of any Spanish operating mines in Pimeria Alta in the time period, as the Spanish were fairly good records keepers and mining claims were frequently registered (denounced) in order to obtain title to the mines. This is not the case with every mine, as with the Planchas de Plata, there was a short lived "rush" while the surface deposit lasted, and when it played out the settlement vanished. Also your point about a Spanish mining activity centered on Tubac, is not at odds with what I posted. It even makes perfect sense, for the only safe area where a Spanish prospector could operate would be quite close to the presidio where troops are stationed for protection. To venture further away would be very dicey to say the least. So what miners were operating in the Santa Ritas, or around Arivaca?

Nentvig makes it fairly clear that mines which were being operated by Spanish and or Mexicans, are listed in his description of the region, Rudo Ensayo. Other mines clearly linked to the missions and visitas are listed with the missions and visitas, which only makes sense. Nentvig even made the chapter title describing the Spanish mining settlements quite clear, Mining Camps and Settlements of Spaniards

(for the readers whom do not post, Rudo Ensayo is online, the chapter just referred to is at: Settlements

I can save you the time to re-read it, the only settlement of Spaniards within what is Arizona as of the date when Nentvig penned this description is at Tubac, which is described as a military presidio, no mining activity linked to it. As Nentvig was alive and writing at the time period we are discussing, I would give his testimony a greater weight than any modern author or researcher.

Anyway thanks again for the kind offer, and thanks for the good wishes. All is well, other than a lack of rain, both of us are pretty well on the way to recovery if not 100% yet. I hope the same situation is true for you as well. If you know of any documentation we can examine that supports the Spanish mining settlements and trade with the Jesuit missions as early as Kino's time of course that would still be most welcome. I am sure you could find many more modern authors that dismiss Jesuit mining activity entirely. Yet what Spanish were supposedly mining in Arizona, in 1690, and not living at Tubac? Where are the records of their mining production? Other areas which had Spanish mines operating, have left us some records of their production.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Glad to hear you are both doing well/better. I admit to some confusion as to Beth's health. Happy to hear it was nothing serious.

I don't believe mining was a major player in Northern Mexico in the late 1600s. Ranching was probably more important, but that kind of activity would be a major draw for the Jesuits, as well as the Franciscans. All of those activities would tend to concentrate Native Americans, as they all equaled......food, as well as some protection from marauding Apache.

It all worked to concentrate populations, which the priests could administer to as well as convert, in the case of the Native Americans. The ranchers were also a source of income for the church.

Take care,

Joe

 

[GreyGhost]

Did anyone from here win the fake Kino bars from the Holabird auction last month?
If interested in selling them and making a little money on them I'd be VERY interested to hear from you.
My only hope is they show up at the Tucson Gem Show this year like things have a way of doing [emoji57]

 

[Eagle Eye Rare Coins]

About a year ago, I bought the main hoard of these silver bars. Working up an article to publish in the future.

 

[Eagle Eye Rare Coins]

 

[autofull]

real or fake i bet these bars will be around for a long time.

 

[pbroker]

Where and when were these bars found? (the majority of the silver ones, not the gold)
Thanks

 

[cyzak]

Can you please give me any information on the carving that I have circled gollum our some one who knows it would be greatly appreciated. View attachment 1675479

 

[sdcfia]

Can you please give me any information on the carving that I have circled gollum our some one who knows it would be greatly appreciated. View attachment 1675479

It's one of the Mystery Glyphs. Mystery Glyphs - Home They can be found in about two dozen remote locations in the western USA and many were chiseled by the same hand. Many are near railroad lines and I believe all or nearly all are found close to rich treasure legends. There are three sites in your state, CO: Del Norte, Grand Junction and Durango. Many folks believe they were carved by the KGC.