failed hunts for (a defined) treasure

[KANACKI]

Here is a 1859 Newspaper Article below that mentions gold found at Panama and the old Estrella mine and all the native tombs being looted for gold. There is some interesting points to be taken from this article with what was being said in 1859.





Apparently in 1859 there was a bit of a free for all looting the thousands of Tombs even the local natives got into as well as foreigners.

Here is pictures of some of looted items that eventually ended up in museums around the world. One thing this shows the local native Indian culture had a long history of metal working before Spanish occupation and after. As it has been claimed some artifacts was of horses and introduced animals.

enjoy...feast for the eyes.













Kanacki

 

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[KANACKI]

Its easy to drool over such artifacts as they seem so huge yet the next picture puts them into better perspective.



Makes you wonder how much was melted down?

Kanacki

 

[BillA]

Hi Kanacki

The lost wax casting method was apparently developed in Columbia and over many centuries moved north through Central America and into Mexico, but not into North America. Areas that had an abundance of gold in their rivers had also an abundance of gold in their graves. Worth noting is the shift from green jade/jadite to yellow gold with the advent of gold working/casting.

There is a LOT of 'archaeological' gold around.

Nice photos, and in talking with old huaceros the stories are even more amazing.

Bill

 

[BillA]

Kanacki

Used to be a group here making fake items, treating them, and selling them in NY. Of course they used a fair amount of copper, but so did the locals depending on the source.

I have heard of a pechara (breastplate, thin round embossed) over 40 cm in diameter.

Bill

 

[BillA]

Its easy to drool over such artifacts as they seem so huge yet the next picture puts them into better perspective.

View attachment 1714894

Makes you wonder how much was melted down?

Kanacki

no one will ever top the Spaniards for the gold smelting of artifacts

Bill

 

[KANACKI]

no one will ever top the Spaniards for the gold smelting of artifacts

Bill

I am hearing you.

Its rather ironic these days Spain jumping around claiming cultural patrimony of sunken treasure ships like the San Jose when most of it was looted from melted down cultural patrimony from South American cultures.

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

Kanacki

Used to be a group here making fake items, treating them, and selling them in NY. Of course they used a fair amount of copper, but so did the locals depending on the source.

I have heard of a pechara (breastplate, thin round embossed) over 40 cm in diameter.

Bill

There is whole industry perhaps bigger then treasure hunting itself all around the world. That is when Provence is much sort after these days. Because some fakes are nearly as good as the originals themselves. Its estimated between 20-50% of artifacts today in museums are fake.

Kanacki

 

[BillA]

There is whole industry perhaps bigger then treasure hunting itself all around the world. That is when Provence is much sort after these days. Because some fakes are nearly as good as the originals themselves. Its estimated between 20-50% of artifacts today in museums are fake.

Kanacki

Is it not a demand and supply issue ? I do find it difficult to commiserate with the purchaser of a fake, and the auction houses are far far worse than the forgers.

The forgers referred to above told me that 90% if the items in the national gold museum in San Jose are copies, gold ok - but copies. That was their business.

Bill

 

[BillA]

I am hearing you.

Its rather ironic these days Spain jumping around claiming cultural patrimony of sunken treasure ships like the San Jose when most of it was looted from melted down cultural patrimony from South American cultures.

Kanacki

and the other governments "approve" as they are all thieves conspiring together

Bill

edit: to expand on the approved thieves topic,
I have never met an archaeologist who did not have their own small collection, often small exceptional 'topic' pieces
bah, good for them but no one else
(ok, make copies ?, lol)

 

[KANACKI]

Hello BillA

Here is some interesting articles.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/arts/design/antiquity-market-grapples-with-stricter-guidelines-for-gifts.htm


https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/arts/design/08kahn.html?pagewanted=all

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150618-carabinieri-morgantina-italy-art-theft-antiquities-trafficking/

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

Hello BillA

There are many points I can agree with Archaeologists in part.

However most archaeologists come from privileged backgrounds. Ie had stable family life with always a good income able to afford to study an occupation that is not required to pay the bills. Go to university surrounded by people in likewise situations who have over inflated egos of academic class conscious superiority, fostered by universities run by the same like minded narcissists.

Archaeologist have a complete disdain for anyone outside their academic clique. They have fostered the ideals history should not have a price on it? A noble idea. "But a decidedly "leftie" in ideology" But in fact far from realities of the real world.

Everything has a price. Everything on this planet is commodity to be bought and sold to the highest bidder.

Prohibition against alcohol was a total failure.

The War on drugs is a total failure.

The War human trafficking is a total failure.

Control on Illicit money laundering is a failure.

Control on Illicit Arms Sales around the globe is a failure.

Control on the spread of radical ideologies are a failure.

Control on prostitution is failure.

The war on illicit antiquities trade is failure also.

While America and England are coming under attack for collecting such objects of cultural patrimony. The countries crying out about such cultural theft have been some of the biggest offenders themselves. If their country had not been so badly run by the elite of their countries creating desperate poor people in those countries.

There would not be the temptation for people in those countries to have to loot to survive.

I agree 100% at the end of the day it comes down to supply and demand.

After spending quite a bit of time in South America. Talking to families for example if you was in their shoes with large family to support with no real income, no welfare or choice except either looting ancient graves which has no relevance to everyday persons struggles to survive. Or even growing coca or dope when that is the only cash crop foreigners are willing to pay for?

You will do it to support your family. If anyone thinks otherwise they have never been in that situation.

The problem with academic elite of this world they live in ivory towers with no real understanding of such issues. What relevance does their archaeological research on the context to such discoveries they much often vaunted, have with every day people struggling to put food on the table?

Nothing zilch!

In truth archaeology is an elitist pastime for the idle rich who see such sites are their private domain. And argue such values as cultural patrimony which for most of the worlds population struggles to make ends meat? It seems so detracted and out of touch.

While there is now an open hostility to collectors by archaeologists. Many thousands of objects are hidden away in museums that never see the light of day. Most collectors I have met have a passion for the items they collect in fact regardless with the price on them the more they are treasured and preserved and when circumstances dictate passed onto other passionate collectors or eventual given to museums.

I agree totally with archaeologists that major archaeological sites should be preserved. But minor small sites on peoples properties should not be dictated by the whims of archaeologists. There needs to be a balance of conservation and fair use for the existing needs of people living in such regions and areas.

To me the UK potable antiquities scheme has been an outstanding success. With finders getting reward if valuable treasure discovered. Most surrendered only to glad to pass on such artifacts and museums are over flowing with artifacts. This structured partnership with everyday people and archaeologists in most cases have been hugely successful. Yet in other countries that concept is reviled with contempt?

Why is that?

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

Some of pictures of the artifacts appeared to have come from a site called Sitio Conte in Panama.

Sitio Conte is an archaeological site located in the Coclé province of Panama near Parita Bay. It can best be described as a necropolis and a "paradigmatic example of a ranked or chiefdom society" Based on dates from the goldwork and polychrome ceramics found at the site, its use is dated from approximately AD 450–900.

While the site has remained untouched since the final excavations in 1940, its mortuary remains are considered to be a critical resource to archaeologists, as they aid in the interpretation of the social dynamics in the region between AD 500 and 1500.

Anyway enjoy the link below...




Kanacki

 

[BillA]

Hello BillA

Here is some interesting articles.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/...apples-with-stricter-guidelines-for-gifts.htm


https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/arts/design/08kahn.html?pagewanted=all

https://news.nationalgeographic.com...tina-italy-art-theft-antiquities-trafficking/

Kanacki

Hi Kanacki,

First link dead. As little as I like the NYT, an ok 2ed article as is the last on art smuggling.

The looting (= illegal digging for me) is a problem whether the site be small or large as such is often a post facto determination by an observer who may not know as much as the digger did.

More later on your longer post.

Bill

edit: Sitio Conte, yet another case of the river recurving and the cemetery being washed into the river. In my travels I always look closely at trail cuts and fresh erosional land slips - a free dig.
There a numerous sites in Iran where it is barely controlled, decryers on both sides.

 

[tinpan]

Hi . In recent times well educated liberating armies do more looting than the local people TP

 

[KANACKI]

Looting by victorious armies have been happening since time immoral . It will still be happening in future wars after we are all long gone. Because in all armies you have saints and sinners and everything in between. Regardless if modern sophisticated armies today have policies to deter looting.

Kanacki

 

[BillA]

Hello BillA
. . . .
Everything has a price. Everything on this planet is commodity to be bought and sold to the highest bidder.
. . . .
Prohibition against . . . . . . . . . was a total failure.
. . . .
While America and England are coming under attack for collecting such objects of cultural patrimony. The countries crying out about such cultural theft have been some of the biggest offenders themselves. If their country had not been so badly run by the elite of their countries creating desperate poor people in those countries.

There would not be the temptation for people in those countries to have to loot to survive.

I agree 100% at the end of the day it comes down to supply and demand.

After spending quite a bit of time in South America. Talking to families for example if you was in their shoes with large family to support with no real income, no welfare or choice except either looting ancient graves which has no relevance to everyday persons struggles to survive. Or even growing coca or dope when that is the only cash crop foreigners are willing to pay for?

You will do it to support your family. If anyone thinks otherwise they have never been in that situation.

The problem with academic elite of this world they live in ivory towers with no real understanding of such issues. What relevance does their archaeological research on the context to such discoveries they much often vaunted, have with every day people struggling to put food on the table?

Nothing zilch!

In truth archaeology is an elitist pastime for the idle rich who see such sites are their private domain. And argue such values as cultural patrimony which for most of the worlds population struggles to make ends meat? It seems so detracted and out of touch.

While there is now an open hostility to collectors by archaeologists. Many thousands of objects are hidden away in museums that never see the light of day. Most collectors I have met have a passion for the items they collect in fact regardless with the price on them the more they are treasured and preserved and when circumstances dictate passed onto other passionate collectors or eventual given to museums.

I agree totally with archaeologists that major archaeological sites should be preserved. But minor small sites on peoples properties should not be dictated by the whims of archaeologists. There needs to be a balance of conservation and fair use for the existing needs of people living in such regions and areas.

To me the UK potable antiquities scheme has been an outstanding success. With finders getting reward if valuable treasure discovered. Most surrendered only to glad to pass on such artifacts and museums are over flowing with artifacts. This structured partnership with everyday people and archaeologists in most cases have been hugely successful. Yet in other countries that concept is reviled with contempt?

Why is that?

Kanacki

Hi Kanacki,

Quite a mouthful, I tried to edit but it was futile; so will comment serially (Bill the Cynic).

"Everything has a price" is indeed the hallmark of our moral bankruptcy. Our current (Western) culture has monetized everything and the term national patrimony causes immediate cognitive dissonance; i.e. what is the value of such? Having held stone dolls and looked at the evocative stone masks of the Mescala culture in Central Mexico, I can instantly agree that such items are indeed the national patrimony, beyond any value, and should remain in the general local of where they were found. One might suspect that I was an archie; not so, looter here. So how does Bill get to be playing with such neat things? Its all about economics.

For some years I lived in a very small rural 'town' in Central Mexico and, being me, would travel around and into the mountains to look at things. After several years men started to appear at my door with things to sell, both real and fake. I have never been in the antiquities business but have known collectors and as a kid had coins, stamps, butterflies, rocks, etc. I was stunned at the quality of what was presented, and at the destruction of some pieces to ward off the bad spirits. My distaste for diggers (huaceros) is really due to their destruction of so much wether by accident or design.

Prohibition is pointless, what is today called virtue signaling. Governments, pushed by archies et all, are trying to spike the demand for art/artifacts (other than by museums ??) but the only activity showing promise is the UK's antiquities scheme. How is it that eBay is full of Mescala artifacts and also fakes? I could repeat all this for Costa Rica although digging here today is not so common.

The scope of the artifact 'problem' is uneven, some countries having relatively few, poor societies' detritus superimposed on one another; whereas another area may have 5000 years of wealthy societies ever at war with one another. And China is being ignored in most discussions. One rule will not fit all. As pointed out, in many cases it is/was the countries themselves/rulers who sold the artifacts, and in many cases cannot be trusted today. So which thief will be given a pass ?

Is there a recurring theme ? Sure, more people enroach on more cemeteries; reduce the population pressure etc. etc. etc.
I suspect it will get worse.

Bill

 

[BillA]

Hi . In recent times well educated liberating armies do more looting than the local people TP

Unfortunately, I have seen incredible pieces stolen from European museums during WWII, now hidden in a safe deposit box.
Not good.

Looting by the victorious has been called the 'spoils of war' since we have writing.

Look at how some have increased their gold reserves, going on today.