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  1. #91

    Apr 2011
    El Dorado
    Equinox 800, Garrett Pro-Pointer AT
    262
    488 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Oceanscience View Post

    Would it be realistic to consider that Henry Morgan and his heirs would somewhat embellish the story, by not mentioning the atrocities that were committed during the raid on Panama. That in reality (I believe there are eyewitness accounts to confirm that) Henry morgan sent his people in search of the people of Panama who did not have the fortune to find refuge on ships, boats and islands that were out of reach of the pirates. they would have had to bury their silver and gold or gather what food and valuables they could and run for cover in the countryside, forests, caves or whatever shelter they could.
    The pirates would hunt them down. Torture them to reveal where there was treasure and try to sell them for ransom. Henry Morgan would also have sold the town itself back to it's inhabitants, like he did with other towns, if Panama had not burned down.
    Killing in battle was considered acceptable. Ransom was acceptable. Plundering was acceptable. Torturing civilians was considered a much more despicable crime. So Henry Morgan sent his people to search for food. If they did other evil things, he chose not to know about it. Does that sound plausible?
    Great points, OceanScience. I remember reading some of those accounts of Morgan using torture against the Panama civilians who weren't fortunate enough to escape and/or were caught in the aftermath of the raid. He was in a pretty pissed-off mood because at least one treasure ship had escaped (largely the result of his men getting sauced when they discovered the wine cellar) and then the city burning down, preventing Morgan from being able to ransom the city like he had with other cities. I know he tried to ransom the 600+ Panamanian prisoners after he marched them to Chagres but he wasn't able to make that work.

    I also remember several years ago when I was talking to an English friend of mine about the differences between Morgan and Drake. He winced and said that Morgan was an absolute scumbag- a murderous, vile pirate, while he felt that Drake was honorable and very much a respected privateer (and not a pirate). Besides his mortal enemies, the Spanish, Drake reportedly treated people well. Another difference was that Drake was a great sailor while Morgan barely got by.
    Last edited by perdidogringo; Jul 15, 2019 at 11:55 AM.

  2. #92
    ve
    May 2010
    133
    23 times
    Morgan's feat was to use a motley crew made out of all sorts of adventurers and buccaneers, like an army. No easy task. Somebody compared it to herding a flock of cats. The buccaneers originated from various nations. Basically hunters, living a nomadic life in small groups. The one thing they had in common, was being persecuted by the Spaniards. Not much different were the brazilwood lumberjacks from Campeche, another significant part of morgan's crew. (see Dampier)
    An interesting turn of events is the final destiny of the ship that carried most of the treasure and VPI's of Panama to safety, out of Morgan's reach. The "Santisima Trinidad". This great ship was later captured by Sharpe. Ringrose and Dampier were part of the crew. They captured the greatest treasure ever. The Nautical charts that opened the west coast of South America to the British. They sailed this ship around the southern tip of South America, to the Caribbean and bought the pardon for their acts of piracy with that treasure.
    I always felt that the remains of that ship would be a fantastic source of information about the pirates. Specially since she is buried under deep mud. Mud is the best preservative for shipwrecks.

  3. #93
    ve
    May 2010
    133
    23 times

    Treasure map

    Here is one of my treasure maps of more modern style. Our boat is anchored on the exact spot where the "OXFORD", Morgan's flagship sank. The magnetometer survey showed a typical scatter pattern of cannon form an exploded ship. Perfectly preserved under at least 2 feet of mud.
    We have the mountains of the background that we can lineup with features in the foreground. The precision of the spot is within about 10 feet or even better.
    The problem is that the picture was taken about 30 years ago. Some of the features in the foreground have probably changed over time. Thus, the accuracy has been degraded. Maybe by as much as 200 feet.
    Something similar or worst has to be expected for Morgan's treasure map. We might have to deal with uncertainty in the range of miles.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #94

    Mar 2015
    679
    3604 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Archaeologists from Texas State University diving near the Lajas Reef discovered a large section of hull from what they believe to be Henry Morgan's flagship, 'Satisfaction'.

    The wreck, which contains numerous unopened cargo boxes and coral-encrusted chests, appears to match the age and design of five ships Morgan lost off the reef in 1671.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    The team of explorers, led by Fritz Hanselmann, the university's Chief Underwater Archaeologist, previously discovered six iron cannons that belonged to Morgan nearby. lost Satisfaction and four other ships amid rough seas and shallow reef around the fort of Castillo de San Lorenzo.

    Morgan's name was later taken on by the Captain Morgan rum company. All artefacts found will remain property of the Panamanian government, and will go on display at the Patronato Panama Viejo.

    With all the news reports the story went dead rather quickly. There is fact many wrecks near the Lajas Reef all similar time period. I thought the discovery was little presumptuous in declaring the vessel one of Morgans ships. Even trying to identify a ship by cannons are fraught with danger because some times captured Spanish guns was re used on English warships.

    Lajas Reef claimed Many Ships. I suspect the wreck of "Good Jesus" lost 1598 was one of the many wrecks on that reef.

    Kanacki

  5. #95

    Mar 2015
    679
    3604 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    I will tell you a funny story.

    I remember one such trip my vessel came as a tourist vessel on Cruise. The customs went over the vessel. We had nothing give any indication of anything else. Kept our mouths shut played the tourist. Meanwhile flew in cargo and equipment needed. And out fitted the vessel. Thinking we had done every thing super clandestinely and was pretty smug with ourselves having totally fooled authorities. Came the day loading all the supplies and equipment into the vessel. A little boy about 5 years old came up and tugged my hand and said in a little childlike innocent voice "Hey Mister are you guys treasure hunters"

    No matter how discreet you are? There is always someone watching and putting two and two together.

    Kanacki
    Last edited by KANACKI; Jul 15, 2019 at 08:09 PM.
    Mackaydon, BillA, Simon1 and 3 others like this.

  6. #96

    May 2005
    Drake, Costa Rica
    680
    932 times
    Hola Kanacki

    As a foreigner one is always watched, and discussed with others; its another channel on the TV of life, no mal-intent just entertainment.
    I imagine I have a red strobe just over my head.
    I never carry an open tool, just starts too many discussions.

    5 of us came in separately and the waitress asks us what we are looking for. jeez

  7. #97

    Mar 2015
    679
    3604 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hola BillA

    In the Pacific we called it the "Coconut radio" Spreads quicker than oil on a sofa.

    Kanacki

  8. #98

    Mar 2005
    121
    115 times
    Quote Originally Posted by KANACKI View Post
    Archaeologists from Texas State University diving near the Lajas Reef discovered a large section of hull from what they believe to be Henry Morgan's flagship, 'Satisfaction'.

    The wreck, which contains numerous unopened cargo boxes and coral-encrusted chests, appears to match the age and design of five ships Morgan lost off the reef in 1671.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	01spanishshipwreck.ngsversion.1431482400904.adapt.1900.1.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	380.8 KB 
ID:	1733274

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Captain-Henry-Morgan-ship-found-discovered-located-Panama.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	158.1 KB 
ID:	1733275

    The team of explorers, led by Fritz Hanselmann, the university's Chief Underwater Archaeologist, previously discovered six iron cannons that belonged to Morgan nearby. lost Satisfaction and four other ships amid rough seas and shallow reef around the fort of Castillo de San Lorenzo.

    Morgan's name was later taken on by the Captain Morgan rum company. All artefacts found will remain property of the Panamanian government, and will go on display at the Patronato Panama Viejo.

    With all the news reports the story went dead rather quickly. There is fact many wrecks near the Lajas Reef all similar time period. I thought the discovery was little presumptuous in declaring the vessel one of Morgans ships. Even trying to identify a ship by cannons are fraught with danger because some times captured Spanish guns was re used on English warships.

    Lajas Reef claimed Many Ships. I suspect the wreck of "Good Jesus" lost 1598 was one of the many wrecks on that reef.

    Kanacki
    What a fine example of a scientist. Shameless is the word that comes to mind.
    This shipwreck was already well known 40 years ago. The late Robert Marx even mentions it in his book "Shipwrecks of the Western Hemisphere"

    Wait, now I get it: Morgan set up a store on the beach. He brought a ship laden with trade goods. Nevermind there is no place for the pirates. Trade is more important. After all we don't want to get into a trade war with the Spaniards.

    Morgan to Pegleg: you, keep the store. Accept only cash, silver and gold. Definitely no credit cards. In the meantime I quickly go to Panama city and give a bad time to our clients who are late on payments. I am fed up. One gives credit to the clients and then they default on payments. I am going to threaten them to burn down their houses if they don't pay immediately. And with interests. We need to show them that business means business.
    Simon1, KANACKI, BillA and 2 others like this.
    Every problem gives you an opportunity to solve it.

  9. #99

    Mar 2015
    679
    3604 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hola treasurediver

    I see the irony also?

    While archaeologists criticize treasure hunters for the ethics of the exploitation of shipwrecks for commercial benefit resulting into poor scientific research outcomes?

    It seems a little hypocritical that Texas State University used funding for a project from a company that has economic motives for promoting Henry Morgans Rum is hardly impartial altruistic motive to sponsor an archaeological project?

    The article reeks of manipulated Scientific research to promote Captain Morgans Rum. It does not take much imagination the marketing arm of Captain Morgan influenced those scientific conclusions.

    Kanacki

  10. #100

    May 2005
    Drake, Costa Rica
    680
    932 times
    hey guys, shall we form a semicircle to howl at the moon ? (ain't it awful)

    We have monetized the world (human part anyway) and indeed this seems an integral part of the progression of 'civilization'. A company gave money to a University and the professor and some students got some free summer diving; and the professor got a paper and some publicity as well.
    And repeatedly we see Captain Morgan's Rum. Seems like a win-win.
    Full Disclosure: Captain Morgan's Rum was my drink of choice (quit eventually).

    Would it be better if the site were to be selected by professionals, and then the results withheld 'in the public's interest' ?
    All paid for by the public without discussion.

    compromises all around

  11. #101

    Mar 2005
    121
    115 times
    The problem is not the Rum. I highly recommend for treasure hunters to search commercial sponsoring.

    The shameful thing is the very unscientific, incompetent claims that this is one of Morgan's shipwrecks. Strictly for personal gain. This coming from Texas A&M that scream from the rooftops that the treasure hunters only think of personal gain.
    Texas A&M that boicot and blacklist any archaeologist that dares giving a treasure hunter a helping hand.
    Every problem gives you an opportunity to solve it.

  12. #102

    May 2005
    Drake, Costa Rica
    680
    932 times
    I lived in/out of Houston for 30 years, what do you not know about aggies ?
    lol

  13. #103

    Mar 2015
    679
    3604 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    MY apologies enjoyed chatting with people but will not be posting anymore at treasurenet. Will not tolerate annoying pop ups on the bottom of screen.

    Kanacki
    Simon1 likes this.

  14. #104

    May 2005
    Drake, Costa Rica
    680
    932 times
    Kanacki

    I use AdGuard AdBlocker (free) and never see a thing.
    ?
    Simon1 likes this.

  15. #105
    Charter Member

    Jun 2015
    8,351
    38299 times
    Underwater B.B. stacking
    I agree with BillA, Kanacki. I use a free "adblocker" and have NEVER seen an ad. Please do not leave us

 

 
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