When a treasure reality becomes a legend.

[BillA]

mineral nodules on the abyssal plain
they exist and have economically attractive concentrations
there is a fair understanding of their worldwide distribution and presumed quantities


the mining methods are understood via prototypes and testing, no commercial demonstration
http://www.westcoastplacer.com/tag/polymetallic-nodules/


https://www.omlus.com/ocean-minerals-llc-technology/

one long-term test of 27 years (no change at all, was bad and remained bad in terms of impact; life went to zero and stayed there)
- cold, dark, no current
https://www.researchgate.net/public...simulated_deep-sea_polymetallic_nodule_mining

there is apparently a massive set of interrelated lawsuits attempting to block such mining

and apparently a UN group awarding licenses (28?)
(to whom? for how long? royalty pmt to whom? located where? on what basis? by whose authority? who may contest?)
http://www.deepseaminingoutofourdepth.org/cia-cover-story-gives-birth-to-deep-ocean-mining/

has remediation been discussed and agreed as to the necessity or method?

just kinda curious, know no more than DuckDuckGo can teach me
some here are knowledgeable and might choose to comment

it would seem that only state actors could take the various pressures applied

 

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[KANACKI]

Hello Bill

I could tell you quite a bit about the perils of such projects. However my comments will inevitably stray into politics behind such projects. If the project can be proven to be successful it would break the Chinese strange hold on Rare earth minerals. Consumption of such minerals is sky rocketing by consumer demand for technology.

Ironic we have kids super gluing themselves to roads to mines using smartphones to document their activism driving the demand for such minerals in the first place.

Kanacki

 

[BillA]

Hi Kanacki,

REEs are interesting but consist of 3 disparate elements; mining, processing ore, and component fabrication.
Undersea nodule mining provides additional sources of ore, perhaps more concentrated.
I'm not sure there is a shortage of ore so much as a desire for cheaper ore.
(I read of a mine in Africa with ore at 4%? direct ship w/o benefication.)

China's advantage with REEs is their processing capability, some of which after years of development is now proprietary.
Cheaper feedstock is no cheaper to process, which capability will take some years to construct outside of China.

And I understand China is now moving into the fabricated component business, improves the value added.
Yet more reduction in raw REE commerce ahead.

I believe all projects of this scope and location become a manifestation of political 'adroitness', perhaps less than economics or technical excellence. The world we live in.

 

[BillA]

https://www.mining.com/10-year-moratorium-on-deep-sea-mining-in-png-not-enough-activists/
10-year-moratorium-on-deep-sea-mining-in-png-not-enough-activists

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Bill

What could be said officially and what is is two different beasts.............

Anglo American pulled out because Chinese Companies owned by the communist party threatened to stop importing Iron ore from Anglo Americans iron ore mine in Brazil which China was its sole customer. AM was faced with losing a lucrative export deal worth hundreds of millions. Either lose that export deal and support Nautilus Minerals with an untried mining project. Or protect the their lucrative deal with China. AM chose to protect their bottom line. They pulled out with funding that was going to pay for the support ship which was actually constructed but the Chinese shipbuilding company who the owners is the Chinese communist party sold to another customer because Nautilus had lost a large amount of shareholder funds. When AM pulled out and could not make payments on time. Thus Nautilus had to restructure the company and make a deal with its creditors.

China has offered PNG to cancel Nautilus permit and be allowed a navy base in return for buying out their 14 billion national debt. The three peak environmental groups that have been active in campaigning against the project, has been sponsored via environmental lobby groups in universities by Chinese Australia Council who in turn are sponsored by surprise surprise companies owned by you guessed it the Chinese Communist party.

Ironic not once has these Environment group ever protested a Chinese mining project.

So you see its a game with a loaded dice.

Kanacki

 

[BillA]

Hi Kanacki,

I would commiserate, but we both understand that all games are rigged. Individuals, and groups of individuals (corporations), will always be at a power disadvantage with governments, and for this imbalance we like to talk of rules; pap for the masses. Power rules, nothing new; same old world.

And there does seem to be a problem with remediation? How can it be costed when undefined.
Or is this whole undersea exercise no more than a snatch-and-run?

Miners do not have a noble history. The only reason hydraulicking in Calif was stopped was due to the visible consequences. And when the consequences are at the bottom of the ocean, the miners are doubtless relieved at the lack of visibility.

The Game is merely beginning, is the tragedy of the Commons to unfold anew, yet again ?

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Bill

There is much I could comment on the topic but as said it strays into the geopolitical game that is currently going on. Sadly many years ago I realized we are just pawns on a very big chess board. One of reasons why the trio has a very diversified port folio of investments and projects. A why I chose to live off the grid as much as possible.

Mining from years of being in the industry is ruthless dirty business. But no more ruthless as the banking financial services sector. The nature of the beast that feeds us.

Kanacki

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Kanaci, the mining ind is cut throat, I understand why, but that doesn't excuse it. Incidentally, here is a picture of the Tayopa ( dead horse) mine area. It is a volcanic intrusion. The picture shows some of the rings, with weathering between the rings. The distant arroyo is one of the rings the center of the activiey is on that lone peak in the back ground What's wrong with the Geologists ? Can you just imagine the Gold and Silver placers that formed there

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Room, apologies for the interruption.

 

[BillA]

and why apologise?
you are exactly on target with the thread title, known and not retrieved
many reasons obviously, probably the country first and foremost

 

[KANACKI]

Good point

Its not just mining that faces that problem.

Its not much incentive to recover treasure in a country your have no legal right to fair compensation in the recovery such a treasure. And face possible criminal prosecution either fine or jail or both endeavoring to do so.

What many people fail to understand such projects can be very complex legally.

Kanacki

 

[BillA]

Hi Kanacki,

I would add that many are unprepared to deal with a foreign government. How does one gain the stature to have a voice?
Who are you talking with? Who is his boss? How much paper, and for how long? (each step will cost, one way or another)
And the real problem; for how long will the agreement be observed? What will it take to get the agreement from the next government?
Any locals involved, they too need to be paid one way or another.

As a child I read R. Sabatini/Black Swan, but the days of Clarke in Siri Lanka are quite past.

well, the coyotes are in full voice so I'd best stop (actually congos here); full moon

 

[BillA]

png-demands-40-of-the-output-from-newcrest-harmony-wafi-golpu-project

Hi Kanacki,

yet another in a long list https://www.mining.com/png-demands-40-of-the-output-from-newcrest-harmony-wafi-golpu-project/

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Bill

Same old story. The revenue get siphoned off by those in power and when they cannot balance the books cry patrimony.

New Guniea is trapped in what we call the resources trap. In rich countries Resources creates wealth in poor countries. It does the opposite as economist refer to as resources as intensifiers in countries with poor rule of law. With endemic corruption a small group within the government plunders the royalties of such mining royalties then blame the mining companies of not paying their fair share.

While indeed the conduct of some mining companies have not been perfect also. But poor conduct only flourishes when countries legal system is dysfunctional. And in such countries beset with those following problems end up in an endless cycle of poverty and inequality.



Kanacki

 

[BillA]

Hi Kanacki,

"But poor conduct only flourishes when countries legal system is dysfunctional. And in such countries beset with those following problems end up in an endless cycle of poverty and inequality."

Geopolitical, steak tartar. As always my initial technique to examine a question is to reverse the premise, and/or the conditions.

Without question there are bad actors; looking at any of the participants, New Guinea has our attention as do repeated tailing waste water dam failures.
You posit that bad behaviour is a consequence of a non-functional legal system; I disagree and posit that all legal systems are formalized corruption.
Steal with a pistol or a pen, the loss is the same. All legal systems are similar, one has as much justice as they can afford to buy.

A northern neighbor acceded to a law passed in a different country to seize blah blah blah
Legal does not equal Moral. Morality/ethics mean nothing to most people, and far far less to their respective governments.
When a government wishes to do something not permitted, they just pass a law to make it ok. (sanctions anyone ? ? ?)

Are "poverty and inequality" a cycle? I think 'chronic condition' would perhaps be a more apt description.
Do laws decrease "poverty and inequality"? Sure has not worked that way in the land of the free.
Laws are a social control system; the law has faint applicability to some, and crushes the lives of others.
The essential difference -> money.

 

[BillA]

looking for gold? or looking to possess gold?

different strategies being employed, here is one

https://www.mining.com/web/china-gold-is-hunting-for-deals-worth-as-much-as-2-billion/

but jeez, in occupied Tibet ?

 

[BillA]

looking for oil? or looking to buy cheap oil?

geopolitics yet again:

China
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/China-Just-Got-Handed-The-Oil-Deal-Of-A-Lifetime.html#

Russia
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-O...ricas-Thinly-Stretched-Middle-East-Focus.html

 

[KANACKI]

It not just in mining either.

Interesting article about Egyptians wanting their artifacts back even thou they agreed to a 50 / 50 split in 1923.

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/03/10/arts/egyptians-claim-lost-king-tut-treasures.html

Kanacki

 

[BillA]

Hi Kanacki,

I rather suspect we are observing (some of) the ongoing changes to the 'social contract'; new people onboard do not agree with the old deals that benefited a different group and now wish their cut of the pie/pork.
Natural resources and artifacts have some things in common; located in a specific area, inhabited by people in that specific area (though generally not the same people of the ancient artifacts).
The world is only too full of examples of more developed peoples using the natural resources of others, and looting the vanquished of their property.
The way of the world, big fish eat little fish; but the smelt are organizing.

Personally I am unsure that the smelt can be successful; on average just too stupid, they will have to await their paradise until they die.
But where the smelt gain control the lunacy of their actions brings everyone down, history (the unknown subject) is replete with examples
- currency debasement is a staple through the ages and across all cultures that used some form of currency.

Miners, the suppliers of minerals, look for their window of opportunity, and ideally are in-and-out; but increasingly this is more difficult for the reasons we are discussing.

Looters, the suppliers of artifacts, look for their window of opportunity, and ideally are in-and-out; but increasingly this is more difficult for the reasons we are discussing.
The modern variant, archaeologist, damages less, conserves more, and crucially can provide context; but are paid by the public and hold much hidden in storage also paid by the public. eh

getting close to a rant, better stop

edit: a song in Neapolitan about the war of the fish

 

[Ryano]

What was it that The Who wrote in their classic song “Won’t Get Fooled Again” ?

Meet the new boss,
same as the old boss