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Thread: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

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  1. #1
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    TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    LOST MINES OF THE JESUIT PADRES

    In light of a recent discussion, my curiosity was kindled so I decided to start a thread. Here is my question:

    What tales of lost Jesuit mines can you list?

    I would prefer if you could list the NAMES of these legendary mines, and if you know the general location (as in California, Sonora, Arizona, Peru, etc) but the name is not a necessity. Here is an example:

    the lost silver mine of Guevavi mission, southern Arizona

    Thank you in advance,

    Oroblanco
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  2. #2
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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    I guess I'll start with my faves:

    >Tumacacori, Az.
    *Virgen de Guadalupe
    *San Ramon
    *Pure Concepcion

    >Gold and Silver Church Items from Mission Santa Ysabel, Ca (near San Diego)

    >Just West of the San Juan Capistrano Mission there is supposed to be a hidden mine.

    >There is a lost mission on the Baja Peninsula that supposedly operated a gold mine.

    >Also, one of the greatest treasures known but never found are all the gold items the Incas were bringing to pay for the release of Atahualpa. Pizarro held the King for ransom, and stated that when one room of the palace was filled with gold Atahualpa would be released. When the room was filled with gold, Pizarro had Atahualpa killed. There were trains of gold flowing to Quito. Much more than was necessary to win Atahualpa's release. As soon as the people found out Atahualpa had been killed, the threw all the gold into deep chasms and deep lakes in the mountains. One of the greatest known gold objects was an 800 foot gold chain that had been made to celebrate the birth of Atahualpa's Son.

    That's enough for me.

    Best-Mike

  3. #3
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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Hi Mike! Thanks for the contribution.

    I just found some of the info you hinted at with the "Gunpowder Plot", which while not proof of Jesuit mines, is certainly proof of activities quite at odds with the saintly behavior we have been hearing of late.

    Good luck and good hunting to you buddy, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

    your friend,
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  4. #4
    Charter Member
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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    That was the exact reason I posted it. The Jesuits, who were supposed to be rigorously following their (and the King's) Rules, didn't always play by the rules.

    Even though BB was getting pretty insulting regarding the Jesuits and Child Molesting, there was actually a good point deep behind the story:

    Man's Law says that Child Molestation is AGAINST THE LAW! ANYONE guilty of such activities will be tried in a court of law, and if found guilty, will go to jail. When Cardinal Mahoney (Los Angeles Diocese) was told about Priests who were abusing children, did he turn them over to the law? Not even ONE! He either transferred them to different parishes (where they continued molesting other kids), or sent them to training camps to try and treat their sickness. Neither of those were according to the law of the land. Mahoney and SEVERAL other Catholic Bishops and Cardinals took it upon themselves to take matters into their own hands, rather than do the right thing.

    Do you think that these molestations are just modern occurences? OF COURSE NOT! Just like Jesuit Mining, I bet you won't find any references to Jesuit Molestors in any antique documents.

    Best-Mike

  5. #5
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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Hi Mike mi amigo,

    I did get the point our friend Blindbowman was driving at, that wrongdoing was NOT admitted to and that attempts had been made both to cover it up, and even protect the wrongdoers. The huge cash settlements made by the church seem only to point up how insidious the previous behavior had appeared.

    I fear that we may go too far if we discuss this matter here and suggest that we move this portion to the Rubber Room. (Perhaps a new thread?) The whole matter of Jesuits having mines or working mines is another of those "hot button" issues with opposing camps to be found not only within the treasure hunting community but also among historians and religious authorities. The evidence proving Jesuit involvement is scarce and largely circumstantial, but a man can be condemned to death upon circumstantial evidence alone.

    The fact that a Jesuit can with clear conscience, declare that everything found within a church belongs not to him nor his order (or the female parts of their order, believe it or not several orders of Nuns are in fact Jesuit) but to the 'whole body of the Church' is some indication of what we are hearing when we hear the Jesuits today claim that they never owned nor operated any mines in the New World. They never "owned" them!

    Gollum wrote:
    Do you think that these molestations are just modern occurences? OF COURSE NOT! Just like Jesuit Mining, I bet you won't find any references to Jesuit Molestors in any antique documents
    No I have to admit, I have never once found any admission of any kind of wrongdoing in ANY documents authored by the Jesuits. I also do not believe that child molestors are a "new" evolution at all, only that we are getting much better at catching them!

    The supporters of the Jesuits as innocents will continue to demand a "smoking gun" and ignore, dismiss and deny ALL circumstantial evidence, but we know that a person with common sense can connect the dots.

    Good luck and good hunting to you mi amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

    your friend,
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  6. #6
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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco

    The supporters of the Jesuits as innocents will continue to demand a "smoking gun" and ignore, dismiss and deny ALL circumstantial evidence, but we know that a person with common sense can connect the dots.
    Exactly. In the world of logic, this defence is a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium.

    Those who were participating in a secret, highly profitable and 'illegal' operation (i.e. Jesuit mining in the New World) certainly weren't about to document these activities through the usual channels. The Jesuits were not subserviant to the King except to the extent that allowed them access to their profit motives. Then ... out of sight, out of mind. The fact that no 'smoking gun' has been produced has no bearing on whether the gun existed. Their expulsion may indicate that such evidence was indeed turned up. Politics only? This explanation helps support the original arguement by the denyers, but it doesn't pass the prudent man test.
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  7. #7

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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Dear group;
    Awesome. Let's use child molesting by the Catholic clergy and link it to New World mining practices. This is just great.
    Your friend;
    LAMAR

  8. #8
    Charter Member

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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Springfield,

    "The fact that no 'smoking gun' has been produced has no bearing on whether the gun existed. Their expulsion may indicate that such evidence was indeed turned up. Politics only? This explanation helps support the original arguement by the denyers, but it doesn't pass the prudent man test."

    Does "the prudent man test" require throwing logic out the window? if so, you have graduated with honors. On the other hand, you are correct on the "gun" thingie.

    IF, there was evidence that the Jesuits had been mining and withholding the King's share, one might think the King would trumpet that news......as a warning to others, from the rooftops. You know.....mess with the bull and you get the horn. Can the other side of this debate connect those dots?

    Joe

  9. #9
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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Greetings friends,
    This thread was not created for debating whether the Jesuits had any kind of mining activities anywhere in the New World, that is the subject of at least two other threads. The mere mention of it does draw "fire" of course.

    I was curious about just how many legends of "Jesuit" lost mines we can list. Of course if you choose to accept the expressed innocence of the Jesuits, and see that it is the only "logical" choice, that is your prerogative. However as Smokey (Stover) said, 'Whar thar's foo, thar's fire'. I do not see how it is possible to conclude the whole of every Jesuit who ever trod the New world, speaking of any kind of involvement with mining, (using logic) with the odd combinations of circumstantial evidence, that NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS EVER GUILTY OF ANY KIND OF INFRACTION. I would not believe this of ANY group, including every religious order that ever existed in the world. Even the apostles made mistakes.

    Lamar, Gollum was pointing out that we KNOW of misbehavior, both within the Catholic church as well as within the Jesuits; this hardly qualifies as proof that ALL were guilty, but that INDIVIDUALS behaved badly. Let us try this one more way; suppose that an American soldier went and raped a girl in a foreign country. Does this PROVE that ALL American Soldiers MUST be rapists, or that it was the policy of the US Army to have the soldiers rape? Hardly, it is the misbehavior of an INDIVIDUAL, that casts a shadow on the group, rightfully or wrongfully.

    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  10. #10
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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Oro,

    "Of course if you choose to accept the expressed innocence of the Jesuits, and see that it is the only "logical" choice, that is your prerogative."

    Of course that's not the only "logical choice". Logic can be used to argue either side of this debate and with logic alone, both side can be shown to be....logical. Are we then at an impasse? No, we simply turn to the existing evidence for our answers.

    I believe that is what I have been trying to do in this debate, quote the evidence for my opinions and rebut the evidence against those opinions.

    That, my friend, is how we find the truth.......or at least an acceptable version of it.

    Take care,

    Joe

  11. #11

    Dec 2007
    2

    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Hello all

    This is a very interesting subject. I have been interested in all things concerning the superstition mtns and Jesuit history for a long time. I wish I had known about this site sooner. I may have something to add to the conversations, but I need to read more of what has already been written in all the other threads to make sure I am not repeating something that has already been posted.

    Happy New Year to all,

    Geronimo

  12. #12
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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Greetings Geronimo and everyone,

    I will post a few more examples and recap some already posted:

    • The lost San Pedro silver mine,AZ
    • the lost Virgin de Guadeloupe mine,AZ
    • the lost Purisma Concepcion mine,AZ
    • the lost Salero mine (this is possibly found, as some claim)AZ
    • the lost mines of Tayopa (again, several found by Real de Tayopa etc)MX
    • the lost Sacambaya mine in Bolivia,
    • the lost Jesuit silver mines of Paraguay,
    • several lost Jesuit mines in southern Caupolican, Bolivia
    • the lost "Mine with the Iron Door" Arizona
    • the lost "Old Padres" mine, AZ
    • the lost Tumacacori silver mine, AZ





    There are plenty of others, and of course the legends which attribute these lost mines to the Jesuits are no proof that the Jesuits were in fact involved with them, unless supported by other evidence. I think it would be fun to have a list of these mine legends, and a list of the legends of lost Franciscan mines such as the San Saba silver mine of Texas.
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  13. #13
    Charter Member
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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Here are a couple of quotes for our good IHS Buddy Lamar:

    "When the Jesuits were banished from South America all these Gold Mines were in full production, and the shipments of gold to Rome had been suspended for some time so that the Priests might amass enough gold to purchase a section of Bolivia, and turn it into a Jesuit Colony..."

    "The Jesuit Priests were skilled in Mining, Agriculture, and the Sciences...."

    "...a chain of missions stretched from Inquisivi to Bolivia, down the River Bopi, and on the Secure, to as far East as Santa Rosa, in the Province of Santa Cruz. Where the Jesuits didn't go, the Franciscans did. EVERY ONE OF THE 38 JESUIT MISSIONS IN BOLIVIA WAS ENGAGED IN GOLD MINING."

    Are these the words of some Treasure Hunting Scoundrel? Some book writer looking to profit from the false rumours of Lost Jesuit Treasure? Sorry.....NO! These are quotes taken directly from the notes and logs of one of South America's greatest explorers and historians....Colonel Percival H. Fawcett. He disappeared (along with one of his sons) in 1925 during an expedition looking for Lost Incan Cities. In about 1933, a Headhunter Chief showed the shrunken heads of Col. Fawcett and his son to a man who was looking for him.

    Best-Mike

    OH...and to stay on topic:

    Jesuit Treasure in Bolivia at Sacambaya.
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  14. #14

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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    This caught my eye, is this a typo; >Just West of the San Juan Capistrano Mission there is supposed to be a hidden mine.

    There isn't much land West of the Mission, seems this was in the hills behind the first Mission location. Hate to be picky as you (gollum) freely give good info.
    Truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but, in the end, there it is.

  15. #15
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    Re: TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

    Greetings,

    The lost city Fawcett referred to simply as "Z" has supposedly been found fairly recently, can't recall where I read about it though. The small black inscribed stone Fawcett had found showing a rather Mediterranean-looking "priest" figure has fascinated me for some time.

    We have many folks today who deny that the Jesuits were ever involved with mining of any kind during their missionary work of the Colonial period, so we have to include a "caveat" warning with any story of a lost Jesuit treasure/mine. I have to admit that I also was convinced BOTH ways in this question - at first believing virtually ALL of the old tales to be gospel truth, later to become convinced that NONE of the old tales were true, ALL had been simply made-up-tales to titillate and entertain the hearers/readers, but have since come to the conclusion that SOME of the tales are based on truth while others are either mis-attributions or outright falsehoods. Taking this position certainly puts one in a "hot seat" in any discussion of Jesuit treasures/mines since it is not in agreement with the idea that ALL of the tales are true, nor is it in agreement with the position that NONE of the tales are true. Truth is very frequently stranger and far less "black and white" than many folks would prefer.

    I did not start this thread with the intention of furthering the debate around Jesuit treasures, but it is pretty much un-avoidable whenever the topic is brought up. Since our defenders of the Jesuits have been relatively quiet of late, I will add a bit here and allow time for the various statements to be refuted etc.

    Whether the tales of Jesuit treasures and mines are true or false, it is a certainty that the governments of England were convinced that the Jesuits were directly involved in secretly mining precious metals and surreptitiously shipping the wealth out of the New World to the Vatican; it is also a certainty that the governments of Spain and Portugal also became convinced that this was the case, and we can take note that the Jesuits were expelled:

    • from Portuguese colonial possessions...1759
    • from French colonial possessions...1764
    • from Spanish colonial possessions...1767


    Finally even the Pope saw that the Regimini Militantis, Society of Jesus/Jesuits, was an order that was out of control and clearly needed to be suppressed. Pope Clement XIV in 1773 issued a "brief" (an official order) which directly ordered the Society of Jesus to be disbanded forever and their possessions turned over to other religious orders. The Jesuits also clearly refused to obey the orders of the Pope (despite their own oath of obedience to the Pope) and continued to work in various places where they had not been expelled, for instance founding Georgetown University in Maryland in 1789 - and remember the Jesuits were not restored to being a lawful Order until August of 1814 (by order of Pope Pius VII) so we need not debate whether ALL of the Jesuits were fully obedient to the rules of their Order nor to their oaths - the facts clearly state otherwise.

    Of course the Jesuit apologists claim that all of the expulsions of the Society of Jesus were totally and utterly un-founded. A little research into the various rebellions within these colonies however shows that old saying "where there is smoke,..." may well be true and the expulsions might have been justified! Just look at the actual accounts (originals) of these historical uprisings such as the Pimas, Opatas, Yaquis etc in Mexico/Arizona as well as (1734) Baja California and even though the various complaints of the Indios might seem unfair or un-justified to the Jesuit missionaries (and their modern apologists) they were quite justified in the eyes of the Indios.

    Without un-chaperoned access to the archives of the Society, we can never prove either their innocence nor guilt. We can take note of the circumstantial evidence, for instance in 1749 the Jesuits numbered 22,589 members, of whom 11,293 were priests - and we can surmise that most (if not all) of the illicit mining and smuggling activities would have been the work of the NON-priests, so they were hardly short of manpower; plus it is well known that the Jesuits did make use of slaves and forced labor, not only in their ranches and farming activities but in mining as well. (The apologists of course deny all of this.) That the Jesuit missions were in many cases highly successful commercial ventures can be seen in the records of what was seized from them on their expulsions, for instance in Paraguay, at the date of the expulsion the number of the cattle was 719,761; oxen, 44,183; horses, 27,204; sheep, 138,827 which amounts to a considerable fortune in livestock. (*Inventarios de los bienes hallados a/ la expulsion de los Jesuitas', Francisco Javier Brabo, Madrid, 1872


    All of this might sound "torrid" or even "vulgar" to our modern sensitivities, but it is well to keep in mind that at the time, it was not illegal to own slaves or make use of forced laborers, that all missions (of ALL religious orders) had to be profitable in order to support the people they were serving, and that (at least in some cases) the Jesuits appear to have been working mines FOR the monarchs as they were among the few people the King could put trust in to work diligently and honestly. The various incidents which led to Indian revolts such as whippings etc are viewed today as vicious or cruel, yet is no worse (or better) than the treatment meted out to Amerindians by the various other European colonial powers including the English, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese etc.

    I see that this post has grown pretty long-winded so will close here, and add to the list of legendary lost Jesuit mines and directly related to Col Fawcett as among the goals of his explorations:

    The Lost Mines of Muribeca, Brazil (*some sources do not attribute these legendary mines to the Jesuits)

    Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

 

 
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