Atlantis

[WilliamTheFinder]

lemmie rephrase that...
"Non-platonic" description...
obviously, plutarch, Zoticus, kircher, et al described atlantis after Plato did.

EDIT: From a text analysis point of view, it's probably true that plato is the only source that is
A) "Useful"
and B) "Primary"

 

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[Oroblanco]

WilliamTheFinder wrote:

What disturbs me most about Plato's account was his assertion that Atlantis wasn't the only way-more-advanced-than-we-think civilization out there...

Hmm - this could be looking at the Atlantians as being way more advanced than their neighbors, when the case could be that they were just slightly ahead, not far more advanced. Most historians claim that Iron age soldiers/warriors had only a slight military advantage over stone age warriors, (one of the excuses proposed for why the Norse colonies in America failed) that any sizable numerical advantage held by the more primitive warriors could easily more than cancel any technological advantage such as an iron dagger or metal arrow points. Atlantis may not have even had iron, it is not mentioned by Plato specifically, they may have had only copper - and a soldier/warrior using copper weapons has only a slight advantage over the stone age warriors. So since Plato does not give any specific numbers for the Atlantian invasion force fought by those 'proto-Athenians' - it is quite possible that the invasion force was outnumbered by the defenders and thus overcome despite inferior technology. There are examples through history of 'primitive' peoples overcoming more advanced enemies, as well as examples of the primitive peoples acquiring the more advanced weapons FROM their more advanced enemies, either through capture in combat or trade during friendlly periods. (For example, many Amerindian tribes obtained steel firearms from Europeans, and used them in combat, but were not capable of making the firearms, or even of maintaining them in some cases.) So I don't think it is safe to assume that the proto-Athenians were on a technological par with the Atlantians. The description found in Plato of these proto-Athenians is of a class-based society, without any mention of their actual technology. In fact the implication seems to be that the proto-Athenians were inferior to the Atlantians.

WilliamTheFinder also wrote:

I hate to say it, but I'm still not convinced...
I can't find a story that ties a place called Atlantis to a sinking island anywhere in the reasonable ballpark of Plato's legend.

Are you going to corner me into Donnelly's theory here? Just look at the parallels in the Noachian flood story with the story of Atlantis, such as ten kings, ten patriarchs; the people were evil and thus destroyed in a great flood; there are even interesting tidbits in the book of Enoch, with the evil "Giants" being punished by the great flood, well Atlas is one of the Titans, and aren't they also supposedly "Giants"?

WilliamTheFinder also wrote:

Even you have conceded that he's the only one that provides any semblance of useful data.

I will concede that Plato has provided the MOST data, but in at least one extremely important detail his version is lacking terribly - that of the precise location of Atlantis. Just my opinion of course, but to find Atlantis, I think Plato's story has to be reduced to a bare-bones set of points, which can be compared with bare-bones sets from alternate sources. My reasoning has to do with viewpoint of the author - just compare the Egyptian version of the battle of Qadesh (Kadesh?) with the Hittite version to see what I am driving at. As world-wide communications certainly were not on a par with our communications today, it seems almost a certainty that any report of such an Ice-Age flood/catastrophe will be recorded quite differently by different peoples. Especially among peoples who had no system of writing, but depended on 'story-tellers' to recall the national histories, distortion and fanciful editing can enter the record, and even the time-line can become vastly distorted and/or abbreviated. (The shortening of the timeline can occur quite innocently - portions of the history that hold no especially interesting tale are the first to be dropped/forgotten, only the most important and interesting events get passed on. Human nature I suppose.) So we end up with people claiming that the world is only 6000 years old, for example, even though we know this to be false.

WilliamTheFinder also wrote:

lemmie rephrase that...
"Non-platonic" description...
obviously, plutarch, Zoticus, kircher, et al described atlantis after Plato did.

Obviously, however when information not found in Plato is found in a later source, and the later source claims to have obtained the extra information from other sources, do we still count it as completely originating with Plato? (Diodorus for example, has information not found in Plato, can't recall his list of sources but do not recall his mention of Plato) Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

What happened? A post appeared and vanished - heck I was about to find an image of a Unicorn...
Oroblanco

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

I got rid of the unicorn because it was a little complicated...you've already read my story, but I'll repost it for the benefit of others who aren't precogniscant. Suffice to say, the analogy still holds...Plato might have indeed been inspiried by sinking island stories, but that doesn't mean he didn't invent his own, it certainly doesn't mean such a thing actually existed...same goes for the unicorn in my closet.

The other example was:

Lets say you and I are walking through the african veldt...we come face to face with a newly discovered tribe, and being curious people, we ask them about their religion.
The wise old shaman says "We worship the great father in the sky, named Zomos...his skin is pale, like the clouds, and he has a great flowing beard and a jealous wife. Sometimes, when he gets angry, he throws lightning bolts".
My response to this is "Oh...you're talking about Zeus, we know all about Zeus".
Do you feel like slapping me? You should.

It's true, "Father Gods" are super common in world mythology, as are "Androgynous Tricksters" "Wise old men" and to some extent Dragons and a pre-divine race that goes to war with the gods. It's even conceivable that they trace back to a common religion held by all people...we are all related, after all.

Does this mean they're talking about the same thing? Absolutely not. this cannot be used to prove the existence of an actual connection at any point in history any more than it can be used to prove such a sky god exists or define his attributes. And that's independent of the fact that people have had a long (And occasionally tragic) history of misinterpreting the beliefs of others mere reflections of their own. We are VERY good at spotting similarities, differences are much harder.

 

[Oroblanco]

WilliamTheFinder wrote:

Does this mean they're talking about the same thing? Absolutely not. this cannot be used to prove the existence of an actual connection at any point in history any more than it can be used to prove such a sky god exists or define his attributes.

So you dismiss any and all non-Platonic sources that predate him, unless they match very closely? I respectfully disagree with you on this salient point amigo, and the example of the battle of Qadesh is one I can point to - for the two versions of that battle are quite different, if we use your rule of dismissing a report because it has differences, then these are two different events recorded by the Hittites and Egyptians.

What about the Oera Linda Book? I realize it is highly controversial and some dismiss it entirely as a hoax, but some hold that it dates to 2194 BC, which predates Plato pretty well, and it has this to say;

During the whole summer, the sun hid itself behind the clouds, as if unwilling to shine upon the earth. In the middle of the quietude, the earth began to quake as if it was dying. The mountains opened up to vomit forth fire and flames. Some of them sunk under the earth while in other places mountains rose out of the plains... Atland disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over the hills and dales that everything was buried under the seas. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the waters."

Pure coincidence, or since it has differences, we must dismiss it as an entirely different account of a different event, or perhaps pure fiction? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

PS - I must sign off, another rather busy day tomorrow but will return. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

you Said:
"and the example of the battle of Qadesh is one I can point to - for the two versions of that battle are quite different, if we use your rule of dismissing a report because it has differences, then these are two different events recorded by the Hittites and Egyptians."
This is actually an excellent point to bring up...generally, I like to compare and contrast evidence for troy with evidence for Atlantis, because Troy is usually offered up as a location dismissed as mythical that was subsequently found, but Qadesh works as well. You are correct, these accounts are widely different, and even record different victors...as such, they cannot be used to verify any events that actually occur within the battle...but that's not what I'm trying to do with Atlantis.

You have asserted multiple times that "Plato did not invent Atlantis". this is independent of the truth value of Atlantis itself, or anything that went on there...it's quite conceivable that it could be a very common legend and still be false, just as it could be a story unique to Plato and be totally true (Could be a secret history he alone received, for instance). I'm throwing accounts out, not because they don't match up fully, but because they are quite clearly not about Atlantis. Throwing up evidence that another culture records a cataclysmic flood at some point in their history does not give evidence that Atlantis was a "real story" any more than showing that Egyptians and Hittites often fought battles shows that they fought one against one another at Qadesh.

The accounts about Qadesh do not match up in many given instances, and so cannot be used to verify any event at the battle, but they can certainly be used to prove Qadesh wasn't the invention, of, lets say Ramses. This is because we have numerous accounts, which cannot be traced to Ramses alone, agreeing upon the date, location, and actual incidence of a battle. Let me repeat that...we don't just have sources saying "Something significant happened on this date"" or "Something significant happened at this location" or "We, from time to time, fought battles" we have an actual correspondence of all three...this alone isn't actually even good enough, but we also have several details within the accounts that are similar "The hittites brought allies" and "the egyptians used chariots" probably...I'm sure someone who's actually studied these primary sources could come up with a lot more.

point is, you're welcome to believe anything you want about whether the flood story in Gensis is the flood that wiped out Atlantis, or whether the book of the dead "actually" describes survivors of the lost continent. These cannot be proved by the analysis of legend. However, no one here is saying that Plato invented the idea of a sinking island, a fallen civilization, or invented the name "Atlantis"...I am saying that I can't find an incidence of an island with any remote resemblance to Atlantis in name or detail that sank even within a thousand years of Plato's given date occurring within the confines of one other source.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentle people: You basically remind me of that beautiful Golden Trout that I last caught on ultra light gear. He could easily have broken free if he had had a definite path to follow but in the end he ended up in my frying pan despite running here and there with the hook (subject) in his mouth.

So it is with you , my friends, you will in the end admit that Atlantis has almost certainly been found. You will make a few runs here and there, but ultimately ----

Don Jose de La Mancha Co-discoverer with the room, of Atlantis We have found it !

 

[Oroblanco]

WilliamTheFinder wrote:

I like to compare and contrast evidence for troy with evidence for Atlantis, because Troy is usually offered up as a location dismissed as mythical that was subsequently found, but Qadesh works as well.

Troy is an interesting parallel, for there have been accusations that Homer invented it, much the same as the accusations against Plato. Do you know of any pre-Homeric source to verify the story {edit}existence of Troy? Thank you in advance,

Schliemann did not simply find the location of legendary Troy - he also found Mycenae, and un-earthed gold death-masks there. Did you know that Schliemann also found a piece of evidence pointing to Atlantis too?

WilliamTheFinder also wrote:

point is, you're welcome to believe anything you want about whether the flood story in Gensis is the flood that wiped out Atlantis, or whether the book of the dead "actually" describes survivors of the lost continent. These cannot be proved by the analysis of legend. <snip>...I am saying that I can't find an incidence of an island with any remote resemblance to Atlantis in name or detail that sank even within a thousand years of Plato's given date occurring within the confines of one other source.

Thank you for your candor and tolerance. I would qualify your first statement there, adding a bit to read "In my opinion, these cannot be proved by the analysis of legend." for you have excluded them in your own reasoning. Your second statement "I can't find an incidence of an island with any remote resemblance to Atlantis" is precisely what one would expect to result, when you restrict your parameters to Plato alone, and insist on accepting every detail given - even though we can show at least reason to suspect that some parts of the tale have been 'embellished'; which is not to say that these details were not true and accurate descriptions of a city, but that perhaps these details have been 'borrowed' from another civilization that was destroyed in a catastrophe. A simile would be if one were to describe the empire of Napoleon, but add into it the technologies or architecture of America circa 2000, and then go try to find this empire as described. It cannot be found as described, because a part of the story has been "borrowed" from a later and different culture. From a time-distance of say a thousand years later, someone reading about this Napoleonic empire complete with a White House, Statue of Liberty, Mount Rushmore, Golden Gate bridge etc might not be able to instantly recognize which parts of the story had been grafted on, and I believe this is the case with Plato's Atlantis. We could imagine this hypothetical future reader might know of such ruins being found in America, yet since they date to a different time and are in a different location, it leaves him puzzled and still casting about for the adulterated Napoleonic empire complete with a Mount Rushmore. For the sake of argument however if you prefer to restrict the sources to Plato alone, and insist on including every detail as a point to measure for deciding if a place is "Atlantis" I have no problem with it. Heck I would love to be proven wrong, and have someone find a place that fits Plato's description exactly in every detail.

Don Jose', Dueno de Real e Minas de Tayopa wrote:

You basically remind me of that beautiful Golden Trout that I last caught on ultra ligth gear. He could easily have broken free if he had had a definite path to follow but in the end he ended up in my frying pan despite running here and there with the hook (subject) in his mouth.

So it is with you , my friends, you will in the end admit that Atlantis has almost certainly been found. You will make a few runs here and there, but ultimately ----

An interesting analogy amigo, however one must know when to 'set the hook' and what is just a nibble. Without some kind of evidence that your proposed location of Atlantis was once above sea level, it is simply an interesting submarine geologic formation. I am still waiting for that evidence amigo, and look forward to seeing it. Not to diminish your theory, but one could as well propose that Greenland is Atlantis, however without some evidence that it must have been relatively ice-free somewhere near the correct time period, the theory remains equally un-proven. Spartel Island has a better claim than the mid-ocean location pinpointed, in that at least it was above sea level in the correct time period, though it is submerged today. So..... any evidence that your location was above sea level at or near the correct time period amigo? For that matter, was it ever above sea level? I know that virtually all of the continents have been below sea level and much of the sea floors have been above sea level at some point over the billions of years, but if that region has never been above sea level - how could it be Atlantis?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't believe the entire group of islands sank or subsided, possibly only the capital city and lowlands/coastal areas. The other tantalizing clue given by Plato, that the islands could be used like 'stepping stones' to cross the Atlantic, may well be the strongest clue he gave. There are islands that have been used like 'stepping stones' for the purpose of crossing the Atlantic. These still-existing islands ought to lead to the location of Atlantis, whether submerged or above water today. (Proclus hints that most of the islands still existed, as in the passage "...the inhabitants of it...preserved the remembrance from their ancestors of the immeasurably large island of Atlantis which had really existed there and which for many ages had reigned over all islands in the Atlantic sea and which itself had like-wise been sacred to Poseidon." If the islands were all submerged, how could there be any "inhabitants' preserving any remembrance? Diodorus also reports surviving descendants of Atlantis who warred with the also supposedly mythical Amazons, but places them on the continent, suggesting that they had been colonists there or perhaps fled there.)

Herodotus informs us that the god Poseidon originates in Africa, and it is in Africa we find the Atlas mountains and the 'Atlantes' people. If Atlantis had conquered all of (coastal) Africa up to Egypt, is it not logical that some survivors might have retained some of their religious beliefs?

(***Side note - in another translation of the Oera Linda, the sunken island is spelled "Altland, or as the navigators call it Atland". It includes a story about a group of people who sailed off in search of some part of the island that they believed would not be submerged.*** Of course Oera Linda could be a complete fraud, which makes the stories moot.)

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

I hadn't heard of Oera Linda before today, but I did check up on it...
The big problem here is that the people who are calling it into question are primarily linguists, essentially the most unassuming and uncritical people on the planet (Linguists, understand, not grammar nazis or english teachers, which are way the other end of the scale...linguistics is descriptive not proscriptive). It's also a much more exact method than the criticisms that can be offered by the field of document analysts or folklorists....so I'm not enthusiastic about it.

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

Re: Atlantis (Three long stories)

I'm looking to get back into the alexander legend that took me to this corner of the forum, so this'll be my last post here for a while...I thought I'd leave you with three not-very-often discussed threads to the Atlantis legend. These threads are not discussed because they lead to some (What I'd consider) fairly ridiculous leaps of logic...which I have taken the liberty of making and putting in parenthesis...they are stupendously similar to Atlantis, however. I'm primarily leaving them as a demonstration of how close to the mark a story can hit without being in any way related, so I'll be making a lot of religious/historical leaps that I previously attempted to refute. Those of you who'd like a sort of mythological "Golden Cord" (Which are in actuality quite rare) may want to use these three gems for your studies, some of them enter the "spookily close" region, in my mind, but I wouldn't use any myself.


John and the Devil: This story is a southern folktale that may,like many "john" stories have it's roots in west Africa, (where herodotus bases his "Atlantis sounding tribe"). John, after losing a bet with the devil, is told that unless he can reach "The house of the devil" in 2 days, he will suddenly die. John figures out a way to do this, by sneaking up on a perching eagle (A perching eagle being a common symbol of the Aztec culture, which has stories concurrent with the Atlantis Legend). The eagle flies him "Across the deep blue sea" (The story is from Florida or West Africa, either way, the ocean would be the Atlantic) before, after a day's flight, he arrives at the house of the Devil. The eagle that carries him gets hungry in midflight, and rips off one of his arms and one of his legs to eat, however, upon arriving in the land of the devil, he is immediately subjected to a crude description of limb reattachment surgury (unheard of in the early 19th century, which is the earliest the story could date from) The mysterious land he arrives at is described as having fantastically elaborate buildings, including a splendid mansion for the devil himself. Later in the story, John is tasked to drain a well that keeps refilling (A natural spring). The devil himself is portrayed as a family man with a wife and a daughter, named "Beatrice" (a name from the latin, from "Viatrix" meaning "Traveler", southern folktales that ARE from africa, which this one might be, show a remarkable ability to preserve "englishized" versions of African culture heroes intact) John eventually marries Beatrice, and escapes the island, perused by the devil and his carriage drawn by the worlds four largest horses (The iconographic parallels with Posideon, also the god of horses, is obvious). Throughout the story, several connections are made between the devil and the "deep blue ocean" he inhabits, suggesting he may come from an African sea god roughly concurrent with Posideon. There are many variations of this story, but one can be found in a section of "Of Mules and Men" by Hurston. Most "southern folktale collections" will also contain this story in some form, but Hurtson's has the most details.

Kircher's Atlantis and the hermetic tradition: Jesuit Post-alchemist Athanasius Kircher was one of the first people to attempt to decipher heiroglyphics, he believed the system was both a language and, at the same time, a sort of unconscious philosophical code that reflected truths from the earliest language of humanity, from which Egyptian was descended. He also had a fascination both with geology and Atlantis, he was the artist of the very common "Atlantis Map" displayed on both wikipedia and at least once on this very forum. Just wiki "Atlantis" and you'll see it. (He also drew a map of unusual geological features including several massive subterranean caves that, much like Atlantis, were considered fanciful in his own time...his theory that the earth was filled with caverns of water and larger caverns of fire was dismissed in his own day, but is more or less proven true today). He translated a very common Egyptian symbol array as carrying the philosophical subtext "The treachery of Typhon (The possible etymological root of "Typhoon") lies/waits/ends at the throne of Isis ("throne" can also mean "kingdom" in kircher's context, which is admittedly not well understood); the moisture of nature is guarded by the vigilance of Anubis." (Anubis and Isis are parts of the Ogdaodic "quaternary" of alchemical thought, the other three aspects being Osirus, Thoth, and an obscure deity called 'Harpocrities*" many of these beings are attributed as Atlantians, or at least from the divine world to the west). Alchemy itself was supposedly started by "Thrice blessed thoth", translated into greek as "Hermes Trismagistos", who supposedly wrote an emerald tablet with possible "Atlantian" gems as "That which is above is that which is below, and that which is below is that which is above" (This is usually translated as "That which is above IS LIKE that which is below, but early versions of the tablet suggest an actual spatial statement instead of an analogy....could he perhaps be talking about a land "below" that was once "above")

Avalon: (My pet hypothesis since childhood). One common etymology for this name is "Apple Island", and it is almost unanimously located west of Britain. Almost every world culture alludes in this way to a garden of forbidden fruit, sometimes golden, sometimes apples, but always well guarded by enchantresses and beasts. The greek "Hesperides" tend a garden of golden apples, and a fellow forum member has already brought up the greek linguistic gimmick between "golden fleece" and "Golden apple". the Chinese legend of the oceanic paradise of Fusang also has strange yellow fruit. Connections to the garden of Eden could also be made (Although the story does not mention apples explicitly, the Greek word for apple is often used for a variety of fruits). (Each of these places are describes as hard to get to, separated by a vast ocean...each story also contains a female temptress/temptresses as a primary element) (In the greek story of the golden apples, Hercules is forced to get divine intercession from the god Atlas, mentioned as a man in Plato's "Atlantis" legend, in order to retrieve the apples in question...the female nymphs are described as Atlas's daughters, mentioned in post-platonic poetry as a critical element of the Atlantis story). Most importantly, the strange golden substance of these apples may correspond exactly with Plato's strange amber element, (Pytheas certainly records a lost island called "thule" around britian that was key to amber collection in the region, one form of amber grows on trees and could metaphorically be described as a "golden apple", he also describes a nearby Island as "Abalus"). (In the arthurian legends, Arthur receives instantaneous rejuvenation from a mortal wound while on Avalon, similar to what John goes through in the first story and in line with similar notions of "fruit of life" found in myths scattered throughout the world, Avalon is also home of Morgan** and her sisters, again, fairy temptresses or female spirits). One version of the story has an incredible tectonic event occur which seals king Arthur (alive or dead) inside the hills of Avalon, in some iterations of this tale, the island itself sinks or "wanders away". (The arthurian legends are usually visualized as medieval, but almost certainly refer to events further back in Britannic past, possibly all the way back to Atlantis, they certainly predate the dates given by Aztlan, Fusang, and Cicomoztoc, also used as Atlantian parallels)

* Interesting random coincidence: The egyptian god Harpocrities was the god of childhood, and portrayed in typical Egyptian child fashion, holding his finger to his mouth. The Greeks later interpreted this as a gesture of silence, and Harpocrities became a god of silence and secrecy in the hermetic tradition. 1,900 years later, a comedian named Harpo (Marx) appeared. His trademark: in his 40 years of acting, he never spoke once. This isn't related to the Atlantis myth but goes to show how powerful coincidences can be.

** Another one: Morgan's name means "Sea circle" or "Circle sea"

 

[Oroblanco]

WilliamTheFinder wrote:

* Interesting random coincidence: The egyptian god Harpocrities was the god of childhood, and portrayed in typical Egyptian child fashion, holding his finger to his mouth.

I believe Harpocrates is the Greek/Hellenized version of Horus, right? Adapted as a part of the Ptolemaic effort to blend Hellenic and Egyptian religious beliefs, along with the "new" god Serapis. Interesting coincidence, however. Have fun in your other threads amigo!
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

William: Enjoy yourself, go satisfied with the knowledge that we have found Atlantis.

Inicdentally do you want that Psychological profile posted here or em'd? I only ask that you post an honest report on it here.. It will not be perfect because I need further data to refine it, but it certainy should be in the ball park.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Salvor6]

Re: Man Finds Atlantis

Well Don Jose, I guess your location is wrong. A scientist at the European Institute for Marine Studies found Atlantis exactly where Plato said it should be. He has a sonar survey as proof. What proof do you have other than that grainy seafloor map? I have that map too and it is known to be notoriously inaccurate. The area you have circled is actually a printing smudge! www.ufodigest.com/atlantis.html.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Scubasalvor - they are talking about Spartel island, which is one of the sites which will fit with Atlantis. The biggest problem with Spartel is the size - the island is just too danged small even well before 9500 BC, at its maximum extent. However it could very well be ONE of the islands of the empire of Atlantis, in which case we ought to be able to locate at least nine more. My bet would be that Spartel is in fact the Atlantian island of Gadeirus, as Plato said the part closest to Spain was named that. The ten islands names are not listed but we can surmise that like Atlantis, named for Atlas, and Gadeirus named for Gadeiros, the others would likewise be named after their kings - AMPHERES, Ampheria, EUAIMON, Euaimonia, MNESEOS, Mneseus, AUTOKHTHON, Authokhthonis, ELASIPPOS, Elasippis, MESTOR, Mestoris, AZAES, Azaesis, DIAPREPRES Diaprepis. However it is also possible that at least seven of the islands are named not for their kings but for daughters of Titaia (Titanes) wife of Atlas, in which case those seven would be named something akin to Maia, Elektra, Taÿgetê, Steropê, Meropê, Halkyonê, and the last Kelaino. It is interesting that Aelian talks about the Meropes, which just "happens" to be the name of one of the daughters of Atlas + Titaia. Coincidence?

Don Jose', Dueno de Real e Minas de Tayopa - how will your site "fit" with Pliny's description, quote:

"There is reported to be another island off [African] Mount Atlas [in the Atlantic], itself also called Atlantis, from which a two days’ voyage along the coast reaches the desert district in the neighbourhood of the Western Aethiopes [i.e. black Africans] and the cape mentioned above as the Horn of the West, the point at which the coastline begins to curve westward in the direction of the Atlantic."

Natural History 6. 199

Wouldn't this place a still-surviving island of Atlantis less than 250 miles off the African coast, and at the point where the African coast starts to curve? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening peeps: first, Scuba diver. you posted ->

The area you have circled is actually a printing smudge
~~~~~~~~~~~~

You must be joking my friend, a smudge ? hehehehehe see pictures.

As forthe other island, ORO has adequately crossed that off as a candidate.
**************************************************************************************

ORO you posted -->

Wouldn't this place a still-surviving island of Atlantis less than 250 miles off the African coast, and at the point where the African coast starts to curve?
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nah:

first, it is certainly not in the place for navigation to the American continent as suggested by the documents., whereas the Caldera is.

Second, that is stretching the direction of West by a bit. The caldera area is correct.

Third; It is way too small for Atlantis and is alone. No rings of surrounding islands.

WE have found Atlantis, just where it is supposed to be.. Up to the well financed scientific expeditions now.

Can one arrest Atlantis as for a ship?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose', Dueno de Real e Minas de Tayopa wrote:

first, it is certainly not in the place for navigation to the American continent as suggested by the documents., whereas the Caldera is.

I respectfully beg to differ on this point amigo, an island at the point where the coast of Africa curves would indeed be in the correct place for ships following the oceanic currents and trade winds. Remember the courses taken by Columbus and numerous other explorers, sailing south along the coast of Africa until they reached the region of the Canaries, where they would pick up the trade wind (east) which carried them west to the Americas, and on return voyage they would sail north to catch the prevailing westerlies that lie farther north (latitude). The Caldera is actually not on the route of the trade winds, by my guess.

Real de Tayopa also wrote:

Second, that is stretching the direction of West by a bit. The caldera area is correct.

I don't know if i can agree on this point, as Plato did not mention the term 'west' rather 'opposite' or 'beyond' - the Greek term is ambivalent.

Real de Tayopa also wrote;

Third; It is way too small for Atlantis and is alone. No rings of surrounding islands.

I agree on the size issue, however the empire of Atlantis was a group of islands, the closest one to the pillars was named 'Gadeirus' after its king, and if Spartel was a part of Atlantis, I would propose that it was Gadeirus. As for the islands off Africa (Canaries) we know that huge parts of the islands have shelved off (subsidences due to earthquakes) so their current size would not be anything close to their former size.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ORO you just have to be part Irish:

Keep it up and you will blow your trip to Tayopa hehehehehehehh

At first glance, I might agree with you on the oceanic currents and winds, will check further.

(who says they used sails? hmm remember THIS is Atlantis - heheheheheh)

On your second point, it is a Mexican standoff.

On your third point, size, Your oceanic sea floor data does not show any amount of islands near there., submerged or not.

Don Jose de La Mancha (el loveable Tropical tramp)

p.s. Viva La Caldera.

 

[treasure_girl3]

Oroblanco,

might you know were in the book of the dead that it said this because i'm having a hard time finding it!

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

no offense, but I think the statement that "atlantis is in the book of the dead" is a little like the ones saying "Atlantis is in herodotus"...

Near as I can tell, the "atlantis parallel" they're referring to is simply the west-ish place that thoth came from...granted, I haven't read the book of the dead for a while, so maybe there's something in there.

I've also heard that some old egyptian king list labels a king thoth appearing in a seismic shift in the lineage about 10,000 years ago...but my specialties Sumerian king lists, not egyptian ones...

course, those guys mentioned a flood, but it was at the wrong time.

I'm back, by the way

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO William, and welcome back.

Don Jose de La Mancha