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  1. #16
    us
    Just an old man enjoying life...

    Jun 2006
    Banning, California
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Atlantis

    Just a note to all....
    Ya better come VERY prepared when you talk about ANYTHING from the " ancient " timeline to my man Oroblanco... I have read some of his stuff... I my own opinion he is a extremely qualified historian ( I think the word amateur should not be used here ) with a discipline in the ancient world. I value his knowledge and I am proud to call him a friend. It makes me feel good when someone has spent years on a particular timeline and he did it for the love of the subject. YOU ROCK !!!!

    PLL

  2. #17
    us
    May 2007
    Western Colorado
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    Re: Atlantis

    PLL,
    Some of us have been saying that for a long time.
    Kind of cool to see someone beat me to it

    LOL
    Thom
    "Everybody dies"
    "But not everybody lives."

  3. #18
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Re: Atlantis

    HOLA mi amigos and thank you for the kind words! Now my danged head will be so swelled-up my hat won't fit! I find the good folks here on T-net to be a well-educated bunch when it comes to history, which makes the discussions so interesting! (That includes you amigos!)

    You know it is possible that Plato did "embellish" the tale of Atlantis, as Plutarch accused him. Here are the relevant bits from the life of Solon (the man Plato used as his source for the story of Atlantis)

    His first voyage was for Egypt, and he lived, as he himself says-

    "Near Nilus' mouth, by fair Canopus' shore," and spent some time in
    study with Psenophis of Heliopolis, and Sonchis the Saite, the most
    learned of all the priests; from whom, as Plato says, getting knowledge
    of the Atlantic story, he put it into a poem, and proposed to bring
    it to the knowledge of the Greeks.
    and
    Now Solon, having begun the great work in verse, the history or fable
    of the Atlantic Island, which he had learned from the wise men in
    Sais, and thought convenient for the Athenians to know, abandoned
    it; not, as Plato says, by reason of want of time, but because of
    his age, and being discouraged at the greatness of the task; for that
    he had leisure enough, such verses testify, as-

    "Each day grow older, and learn something new;" and again-

    "But now the Powers, of Beauty, Song, and Wine,
    Which are most men's delights, are also mine." Plato, willing to improve
    the story of the Atlantic Island,
    as if it were a fair estate that
    wanted an heir and came with some title to him, formed, indeed, stately
    entrances, noble enclosures, large courts, such as never yet introduced
    any story, fable, or poetic fiction; but, beginning it late, ended
    his life before his work; and the reader's regret for the unfinished
    part is the greater, as the satisfaction he takes in that which is
    complete is extraordinary. For as the city of Athens left only the
    temple of Jupiter Olympius unfinished, so Plato, amongst all his excellent
    works, left this only piece about the Atlantic Island imperfect.
    Of course it might simply be that Plutarch found the descriptions to be un-believable, having such incredible details as springs of both cold and hot water piped through the city - something not matched in his own day. After all many in his own time doubted that Troy of Homer existed too! (History seems to become embellished into legend and then metamorphoses into myth when enough time has passed.)

    We so often hear from the skeptics how "Plato is the only ancient source for the tale of Atlantis" but this is also quite false, as we can show quite easily. As the historians will tell us, we know that the very first metal to ever be used by Man was gold (and the first metal mentioned in the Bible BTW) is it so far-fetched that an early civilization would have made use of it to ornament their cities? We also know that copper was the second metal used, and that the first use of copper is NOT known - just a few short years ago the historians had to adjust their timelines when the famous "Iceman" - the frozen man found in the Alps, was discovered carrying a copper axe - over 1000 years before they were "supposed" to have begun using it. The traces of elements found in Iceman's hair indicated that he has been active in smelting the copper too, not simply hammering natural nuggets into useful forms.

    Good luck and good hunting amigos, you have made my day (and it was not a great day until now!) so I hope that you also will have a great day, and many more to follow.
    your swollen-headed-treasure-hunting pal,
    Roy ~ Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  4. #19
    Charter Member
    us
    Pirate of the Martires

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    Re: Atlantis

    Hello Oroblanco, I respect your right to disagree. I read all your posts on the Montazuma Tomb thread and I was impressed. There is a feature out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean called the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. This has been there for millions of years. There is no way a continent or island could have sunk there. Also don't forget; Brazil was part of the African continent before it broke away from the supercontinent Pangea. Therefore rocks and minerals found on the W. coast of Africa are similar to those found in Brazil.
    Edgar Cayce was one of the crackpots I refered to. He also believed the earth was hollow!

  5. #20
    us
    Feb 2006
    Virginia
    V3i
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    Banner Finds (1)

    Re: Atlantis

    There was just a another show on the History Channel about this.. within the last couple of weeks.. I Tivo'ed it for my 10 and 6 year olds.. in a nutshell.. they say they found it.. it was destroyed by an eruption.. they have a city center that generally fits the known descriptions.. including the advanced building methods of the time, a good 1000 years ahead of anything else.. and have supporting digs on the island of Crete.. the port, the buildings andeven the "silver walls" were all there.. the silver walls were due to the high mica content of the local stone if I remember correctly.. plus they had tons of other advancements... indoor hot and cold plumber.. a city sewer system etc... there were a lot of things that fit the description very well...

    MonkeyBoy
    astralea1692 likes this.

  6. #21
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: Atlantis

    Greetings Scubasalvor,

    Scubasalvor wrote:
    There is a feature out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean called the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. This has been there for millions of years. There is no way a continent or island could have sunk there.
    Well we can rule out "continent" specifically, because Atlantis was never a continent, just a large island. It is common in modern times to call it a "continent" but Plato never referred to it as a continent, just a large island and none of the other ancient sources refer to Atlantis as a continent. (Unless you want to count Aelian's report, which sounds more like he is talking about the Americas and no mention of them being "sunk".) As for an island being "sunk" at the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, no doubt your statement is correct, but the Mid-Atlantic Ridge is not the only site in the Atlantic ocean that will "fit" with Plato's fairly imprecise description - he only says "in front of" the Pillars of Herakles, which could mean literally right in front, and in that case we do have a large island that is sunk below sea level (Spartel) and this island was above the sea 11,000 years ago.


    Then there are the Azores, Madeira and the Canary islands; in particular La Palma island in the Canaries has had catastrophic shelf-subsidence of large proportions in the past, resulting in mega-tsunamis that appear to have actually re-shaped some islands in the Bahamas and tossed massive blocks of coral onto shore. Many other sites have been proposed as Atlantis including Ireland, Iceland, Greenland even Cuba but all of these are today above sea level - however there are a number of islands that existed 11,000 years ago when sea levels rose abruptly and massively, in fact right around 9600 BC when the Younger Dryas period ended - some scientists have said that the Earth lost one-fourth of the total land area to flooding at this time. (Coincidentally, apocryphal texts have said this also, that the great flood of Noah covered "a fourth part" of the lands) We can find one recorded measure of how much water rose that seems to be taken at the time - in Genesis, describing the flood of Noah, it says the sea levels rose "fifteen cubits" or around 23 feet in a matter of days! Think what that would do today, if it occurred at that speed.

    Of course it could all be simply a morality play imagined by Plato (even though we can prove he did not invent it) and Man was living as a 'cave-man' in 9,600 BC as the historians insist; even though we know that not ALL mankind was living the 'cave-man' life, just consider the list :

    Events
    c. 10,000 BC — Pottery was first produced in Japan.[2][1]
    C. 10,000 bc — Bottle Gourd is domesticated and used as a carrying vessel.
    c. 9,500 BC — There is evidence of the harvesting, though not necessarily of the cultivating, of wild grasses in Asia Minor about this time. [1][verification needed]
    c. 9,500 BC — First building phase of the temple complex at Göbekli Tepe.
    c. 9,300 BC — Figs were apparently cultivated in the Jordan River valley.[3]
    c. 9000 BC — Neolithic culture began in Ancient Near East.
    c. 9000 BC: Near East: First stone structures are built at Jericho.
    The dog is domesticated.[citation needed]
    (Wikipedia, not the most reliable source I realize but this is just a sample) - also:

    -10000 The discovery and use of silver, gold, carbon, copper, tin, iron, mercury, sulphur and lead
    (from http://www.intute.ac.uk/sciences/timeline1.html)

    Then we can look at sunken monuments, such as one stone circle (Er-Lanic island) in France that lies partially submerged beneath the ocean or "Sea-henge" in Britain. Are we to suppose that "cave-men" built these megalithic structures back when sea levels were lower? Or do we propose that the builders deliberately built their stone circles partly out into deep water? Or, is it just possible that not ALL of mankind was living the life of "cave-men" 11,000 years ago, that SOME peoples were forming what we would call a "civilization" today? If we accept this idea (which is not such a leap, after all the humans of 12,000 years ago had the exact same size brains we do today, the exact same capabilities of reasoning, memory and even capacity to invention) then the tale of Atlantis, along with the numerous Flood Myths which exist in virtually every human culture world-wide, might just be telling us the truth about what happened!

    I am also well aware of the continental drift theory (and the supporting evidence) which would clearly make it impossible for any continent to exist lying in between Africa and South America, but remember we are not talking about a continent, and the area it could be located covers a MUCH larger area than simply that region lying between Africa and South America. Plato gave us the actual size of the main island of Atlantis, so if anyone hopes to ever find Atlantis, they need to find a sunken island or perhaps one that still exists today, located somewhere in the Atlantic ocean of approximately the size described by Plato.

    I would also respectfully disagree with the idea that a continent cannot sink, since we know of two that are sunk today. Both are submerged for millions of years (Zealandia and Kerguelen) plus are far from the Atlantic, so are not contenders for the title of "Atlantis" but then we are not really searching for a continent - just a relatively large island, but not even so large as Greenland is.

    Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
    your friend,
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  7. #22
    Charter Member
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    Pirate of the Martires

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    Re: Atlantis

    Thanks Oro. I hope I find the treasures that I seek too.

  8. #23
    se
    Sep 2006
    Sweden
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    Re: Atlantis

    I just want to make an input about "earthquakes and the floods" in regards to the volcanoes.
    As I suppose you know there are "many" variations of volcanoes.
    Some of these have enough power to literally shake the earth and cause tsunamis.
    Now say a super volcano (very powerful type of volcano like the one in Yellowstone national park) exploded it can indeed trigger a landslide which can result in a tsunami.
    If I remember right Italy also had a super volcano.
    Don't forget that possibility even if it is small or not mentioned. I'm not saying it was what happened just wanted to fill ya in.

    Cheers,
    Eu
    astralea1692 likes this.
    Geologists are gneiss, tuff, and a little wacke.

  9. #24
    us
    May 2007
    Western Colorado
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    Re: Atlantis

    If that Caldera in Yellowstone ever decides to do the big thing it will most likely change the face of the map on a global scale.
    2/3 of the U.S. will just disappear. Not to mention the global climate changes that are possible.
    That is a big one...
    Thom

    I can't believe I am actually responding to one of Blindblowman's posts

    astralea1692 likes this.
    "Everybody dies"
    "But not everybody lives."

  10. #25
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,850
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    Re: Atlantis

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dog
    ... I can't believe I am actually responding to one of Blindblowman's posts
    Perhaps you're ill.
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  11. #26
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: Atlantis

    Old Dog wrote:
    I can't believe I am actually responding to one of Blindblowman's posts
    No amigo, this is not one of Blindbowman's posts or threads, in fact as far as I know he has not posted in this thread -YET-. So you are not really responding to Blindbowman here so far. The far-fetched theories might give the impression that Blindbowman is here but like I said, I have some far-fetched theories of my own!

    I do think that if some kind of volcanic eruption were involved in the destruction of Atlantis, then Plato would have included it - instead all we have are the less-exciting image of "earthquakes and floods". Hollywood would not like that version I am sure!

    Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
    your friend,
    Roy ~ Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  12. #27
    us
    May 2007
    Western Colorado
    5,868
    335 times

    Re: Atlantis

    Whew...

    Scared me for a second there.
    Thanks Roy,

    Thom
    "Everybody dies"
    "But not everybody lives."

  13. #28
    se
    Sep 2006
    Sweden
    White's V3, Minelab Explorer II & XP Deus.
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    Prospecting

    Re: Atlantis

    I do think that if some kind of volcanic eruption were involved in the destruction of Atlantis, then Plato would have included it - instead all we have are the less-exciting image of "earthquakes and floods". Hollywood would not like that version I am sure!
    Yes but you might also think that lets say a massive landslide happened on a isolated island or something he might just not know of it this could then indeed cause a tsunami or "floods". though the earthquake might be harder to explain with a volcanic eruption then he'd have a greater chance to note it.(this is not as likely to "travel" half way around the world thus it can basically be considered a more "local" event)

    There might be a chance he simply did not know what happened thus not mentioning it. A tsunami can "travel" very far and still cause quite a massive damage when it hits land, though this depends on many factors which I feel might not be of interest in this topic.

    Cheers,
    Eu
    Geologists are gneiss, tuff, and a little wacke.

  14. #29

    Jun 2006
    27
    6 times

    Re: Atlantis

    There are several problems with anyone here thinking that Plato's account of Atlantis can be utterly factual (below are a few - of many - points to think on:

    1) Atlantis is only spoken of in two Platonic dialogues: 'Timaeus' and 'Critias.' Both accounts talk about the war attempts by Athens to attack Atlantis. However, the history of Athens shows us that Athens didn't exist during the time in which Socrates (i.e. Plato) and Critias say Atlantis met it's demise. There is the presumption by Plato that Athens was much older than is known today.

    2) (From Wikipedia) "According to Plato, Solon told the story to the grandfather of the Critias appearing in this dialogue, who was also named Critias, and who retold the story to his grandson." Thus, the story was passed down through multiple generations - and crosses between cultures.

    3) There is MUCH debate as to whether Plato wrote correctly about Socrates. Socrates is the person in the Socratic dialogues 'Timaeus' and 'Critias' - who talks about Atlantis. You'd have to be very familiar with the dialogues; Xenophon's writing's on Socrates, Aristophanes, and the scant other writings about Socrates - to better understand the arguments as to 'who Socrates really was' - let alone if Plato wrote word-for-word/verbatim what Socrates spoke. Plato wrote both books some time after the death of Socrates - and thus the source would only be memory (a memory from Solon, from a memory by Critias the elder, to memory via Critias the younger, to Socrates, to Plato, etc.). If you've actually read the 'Timaeus' and 'Critias' - you'd notice a lot of wild mythology, and unusual cosmology throughout; which is largely ignored or not read by modern readers, and yet the mythical references are a key part of the two dialogues and the faith/culture of Plato's Athens.

    4) Plato believed in Universals; and explained his theory's with parables. I.E. the 'parable of the cave.' The dream of the Utopia of 'The Republic.' (From Wikipedia) "The dialogue (Timaeus) takes place the day after Socrates described his ideal state (The Republic). In Plato's works such a discussion occurs in the Republic. Socrates feels that his description of the ideal state wasn't sufficient for the purposes of entertainment and that "I would be glad to hear some account of it engaging in transactions with other states." Again, this is an area where you would have to be more familiar with the dialogues: the purpose of each the Socratic dialogues (written by Plato) - is to come to an understanding about a specific topic, idea, universal, etc. Thus, the purpose about speaking on Atlantis is not so much as to be any sort of historical/geographical account; but a moral, social, and philosophical account - in this case - how best to govern; and how to recognize the abuse of power, etc.

    " I feel the following Wikepedia quote gives the best simple explanation:

    As a story embedded in Plato's dialogues, Atlantis is generally seen as a myth created by Plato to illustrate his political theories. Although the function of the story of Atlantis seems clear to most scholars, they dispute whether and how much Plato's account was inspired by older traditions. Some scholars argue Plato drew upon memories of past events such as the Thera eruption or the Trojan War, while others insist that he took inspiration from contemporary events like the destruction of Helike in 373 BC or the failed Athenian invasion of Sicily in 415–413 BC. "

    It is a pity that 'Atlantis Treasure Hunters' often have very little familiarity with the general themes/purposes of the Socratic dialogues by Plato; and the history of criticism toward's Plato's attempt to truthfully convey who the real Socrates was; in light of other known contexts in the historical/literary account. Truly delving into these old sources of material - in their breadth - would reveal that the Atlantis in Plato's accounts - has little to do with facts - and a lot to do with ideals/universals being extolled via parable and the Socratic dialogue format. In the manner in which most of the Socratic dialogues end; the 'True Atlantis' can never be a solid idea, and likely not a solid place on the map (in accordance with Plato's details) - but we are better person's for seeking out the Ideas of what an ideal republic might entail. It's great archeaologists and other seekers are looking for lost Civilizations; but lets not try to frame them in the mold of Atlantis - based on Plato's dialogues, of a previous conversation, of a memory, from a memory, from another country.......................... and several thousand years before Athens ever existed.
    Raparee and Real of Tayopa like this.

  15. #30

    Dec 2007
    Culdesac, Idaho
    808
    99 times

    Re: Atlantis

    Sure, if yellowstone erupted it would be devastating. But 2/3 of the U.S. gone? I don't think so. You have to keep in mind that it has erupted in the past. The only concern now is that it is overdue.

    Granted it will probably destroy most of the forest around Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming as well as rain down a couple of feet of ash as far east as the Dakotas. But it can be dealt with. It will not be the world ending cataclysm you are expecting.

 

 
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