Atlantis

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning fellow addicts.

Oro, you posted an article which reads this --> "For more than 2,000 years Plato has been accused of making the entire Atlantis story up. Now for the first time we know that his source, Solon, was working from a pre-existing and genuine tradition".

True, but none of the so called 'facts' on Atlantis / Aztlan fit Turkey.

Don Jose de La Mancha

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[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"True, but none of the so called 'facts' on Atlantis / Aztlan fit Turkey."

Nor does the era of Atlantis fit the Aztecs own story of when they left Aztlan.

Take care,

Joe

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Cactus (<-- code name for Guadalcanal, 1942 ) You posted-->"True, but none of the so called 'facts' on Atlantis / Aztlan fit Turkey."

Nor does the era of Atlantis fit the Aztecs own story of when they left Aztlan.
*************
On the first we are in agreement.

On the second, regarding eras, there is a vast difference in the periods. The forefathers of the "Aztecs came to the shallows - Aztlan - thousands of years after Atlantis was submerged. They are not survivors of Atlantis, but Aztlan. They were a nomadic group, possibly from Palestine / Israel.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[Is Dolni Vestonice your best evidence that the story of Atlantis could be true?

Is that what I said? I said it is proof that man was making advances toward civilization FAR earlier than what is commonly supposed, and that to propose that mankind (in general) was at that level circa 26000 years ago, then went for 14000 plus years without making advances is a poor proposition. I did not say that Dolni Vestonici IS direct evidence of Atlantis at all, nor wish to give that impression.]

I would agree that man was moving "toward civilization"......from the start. Dolni Vestonici was very early in that process. It was only a winter camp, consisting of a few large structures made of Mammoth bones and skins. They built a wall around the camp using the same material as their shelters, with the addition of brush and small boulders.

The estimated total population was around 85-125 people living in four or five such structures. They were hunter gatherers and, basically, were attracted to that location because the Mammoth's wintered there.

It took them around three thousand years to reach that level of civilization.

Take care,

Joe

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

<snip>

I would agree that man was moving "toward civilization"......from the start. Dolni Vestonici was very early in that process. It was only a winter camp, consisting of a few large structures made of Mammoth bones and skins. They built a wall around the camp using the same material as their shelters, with the addition of brush and small boulders.

The estimated total population was around 85-125 people living in four or five such structures. They were hunter gatherers and, basically, were attracted to that location because the Mammoth's wintered there.

It took them around three thousand years to reach that level of civilization.

Take care,

Joe

Dolni Vestonice is more ancient relative to Atlantis, than Atlantis is to us. The Atlantis of Plato's story, would be largely underwater so we are not talking about direct evidence of Atlantis. Dolni Vestonice was mentioned as proof that man was not simply wandering tribes living in caves, and was already taking the steps to what we consider civilization, over 10,000 years before Atlantis.

I would like to know your source for that statement that Dolni Vestonice was a "winter camp" as my sources have it as a year round settlement, hence the need for food storage and a defensive perimeter wall.

" This Paleolithic site was inhabited from ca. 27 000 to 23 000 B.C. To give some sense of scale, the rounded structure in the lower center, which perhaps was a wind screen, measured 27 by 45 feet. The settlement had perhaps 100 people who inhabited the site the year round."

Your second statement I would also like to ask your source for as well, for I have no such estimate from any source. The people of Dolni were not making a major leap but a step, from nomadic hunting/gathering to permanent settlement but still hunting and gathering for sustenance. Such a step does not require thousands of years to develop, and we can see evidence of (forced) examples in which fully nomadic peoples converted to permanent settlements in a single generation. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Your source could be right. I have read it, but prefer the logic of Professor Walter A. Fairservis, Jr. The professor wrote "The Threshold Of Civilization: An Experiment in Prehistory".

Why the people did not stay at that location year round is explained by the land itself. Each summer they would move into the plains to the south:

"Yet when the winter ended and the flies returned to the marshes, men and animals (like the Eskimo and animals of the north) moved onto the plains. On the plains the abundant flora drew the ungulates in their herds, and this plus the presence of berries and other edible plants drew men far from the winter settlement. Whereas concentration of human settlement had advantage in winter, summer dispersal of animal herds made similar dispersal necessary for man." Page 94

The men of Dolni Vestonice had to band together in the winters to successfully hunt the Mammoth. The evidence shows that they killed "over a thousand" of the animals.

I am not trying to say that Dolni Vestonice has anything to do with Atlantis. We were discussing man's early movement towards civilization. Since, at that time, only one in ten of the inhabitants reached the age of 40, and one third of the population died before 20, technical advancement was slow in coming. About the time you got a really good idea, you were close to death.

Changes in the society were even slower in evolving. Change among such tribes was looked on with distrust and suspicion. While they gathered/lived together for the common good/hunting, their lifestyle had not changed that much from living in caves.

Anyway, that's just my opinion from the few books I have read on early civilization. I'm sure my knowledge is nowhere near what you, my friend, have learned over the years.

I appreciate the debate.

Take care,

Joe

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Anyway, that's just my opinion from the few books I have read on early civilization. I'm sure my knowledge is nowhere near what you, my friend, have learned over the years.

I am sure you are wrong there amigo, thank you for the kind words even if they are 100% off the mark.

Thank you also for the reference, I do not have that and will have to hunt up a copy some time. The theory of a year round use was based on the food storage pits and defensive wall, which would not be needed for a temporary camp, and on the idea that the game was sort of 'bottlenecked' at that point. If it was only a winter camp, we might wonder why they bothered with food storage, especially if they were obtaining fresh meat regularly as a winter hunt-camp for mammoth. Also, we might wonder where the summer camp was located? It is not possible to say for certain, but (to me) the argument for a year round use seems more logical. Until I can read that source however I do not think it safe to take a stand that they must have used it year round.

Thanks again, I hope you and everyone reading this are having a very pleasant evening.
Roy

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I would like to know your source for that statement that Dolni Vestonice was a "winter camp" as my sources have it as a year round settlement, hence the need for food storage and a defensive perimeter wall."

In hunting the Mammoth, they ended up with a lot of meat......much more than they could eat right away. No doubt a place to store meat was needed. That would be much better in a small camp than having it laying all over the place.

They killed quite a few young Mammoth's. They alone would weigh in at 300 to 1,000 pounds each.
It would seem they favored the young ones.

The wall was to keep out the animals who would want to get to that meat and the people within. African's built a boma out of thorny brush for the same purpose. While traveling about, such a wall
could be constructed each night.

The Dolni Vestonice winter camp had a more permanent protective wall.

Take care,

Joe

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

The wall was to keep out the animals who would want to get to that meat and the people within. African's built a boma out of thorny brush for the same purpose. While traveling about, such a wall could be constructed each night.

Exactly why a STONE protective wall makes no sense for a temporary camp. If it were really just a temporary camp, why bother? Nomadic peoples rarely bother with food storage too, as there is no real reason to store it in anything like a permanent arrangement.

I hope all is well with you and yours,
Oroblanco

[cactusjumper]

Cactusjumper wrote

The wall was to keep out the animals who would want to get to that meat and the people within. African's built a boma out of thorny brush for the same purpose. While traveling about, such a wall could be constructed each night.

Exactly why a STONE protective wall makes no sense for a temporary camp. If it were really just a temporary camp, why bother? Nomadic peoples rarely bother with food storage too, as there is no real reason to store it in anything like a permanent arrangement.

I hope all is well with you and yours,
Oroblanco

Roy,

I did not mean to imply that the wall around the Dolni Vestonice settlement was temporary. The Arctic winters were quite long there, and the summers were very short. Each winter the people would return to the same settlement and do a reverse "snowbird" migration. For the most part, it was predicated on the movements of the Mammoths, but there were other factors as well.

The walls were, primarily, Mammoth tusks & bones, with rocks added to the mix. It is believed that skins (probably Mammoth) were spread over the bones and tusks as an added barrier. To be a little more accurate, I might have called it a semi-permanent boma. No doubt, there were improvements made each year.

Our best to you, Beth and the pups.

Take care,

Joe