Atlantis

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigo Don Real, Dueno de Tayopa,

Hmm - well I am hesitant to take the step of saying I found Atlantis, especially as there is quite a different place that has me fairly convinced. Before we hire a ship, (in my opinion) I would like to see your reasons or arguments against some of the other locations/ contenders that various authors have proposed, including (but NOT limited to):

• Antarctica
• Spain, specifically the site adjacent to Cadiz, which I believe to be Tartessus
• Sardinia
• Ireland
• Greenland
• Iceland
• Bolivia
• Cyprus
• Japan
• Ceylon (Sri Lanka)
• Australia
• New Zealand

A brief explanation of why we should reject these locations will suffice in most cases. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

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[Salvor6]

I joined Brett. I gave up on my search for Atlantis. Why search for something that does not exist?

 

[the blindbowman]

where was Plato when he said it was past the straits...?

Akragras !

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning Scuba salvor: you posted -->

I gave up on my search for Atlantis. Why search for something that does not exist?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hmm, how do you know that it didn't exist?

just playing around with the legend, I have found exactly what is described as what Atlantis supposedly looked like and the same size, , in the specific area where it supposedly existed, and the same distance from Gibraltar. Remarkable coincidence no?

By additional coincidence it is located near the apex of the four major plates, which places it in the center of major earth movements, precisely what is claimed for it's demise..

Now it is up to you, go dive on it ! hehehh


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ORO: you posted -->

Antarctica
Spain, specifically the site adjacent to Cadiz, which I believe to be Tartessus
Sardinia
Ireland
Greenland
Iceland
Bolivia
Cyprus
Japan
Ceylon (Sri Lanka)
Australia
New Zealand
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With the possible exception of Spain, wich is automatically dismissed, none fit in either size, form, distance, direction, or being located in a seismic hyper active zone capable of destroying it in a day or so, only in my location are all factors possible and probable..©@

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI BRETT, you posted -->

I'm going shopping at S_Mart.
~~~~~~~~~~

Is that on the main island of Atlantis?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Bret: You posted -->

.No Sir. U.S.A Baby!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chicken hehehh
********************************************************************************** also -->

Thera and Crete
~~~~~~~~~~~~

No question what happened there, but neither were / are Atlantis.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

OK Brett, I give up - have fun and I hope you find the treasures that you seek. I won't pester you any more.
Oroblanco

POSTSCRIPT - I will be pulling my posts from this thread, but will leave them up until tomorrow in case anyone wants anything from them. I will leave them, so long as they are NOT offending someone.

 

[Cynangyl]

Oro mi amigo it is sure good to see you again! I have been gone a few days and unable to get on tnet so I have missed the majority of the thread but I would also hate for you to delete any of your contributions! However am I to learn if the info shows up and disappears before I get home from a 72 hr shift?? Bah! I need a book done so info does not show up and disappear when I am not lookin!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OHIO ORO You posted --->

I will be pulling my posts from this thread, but will leave them up until tomorrow in case anyone wants anything from them
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

?? And here I thought that you were a serious investigator ? Giving up and pulling your posts? No way Naranjalite , keep plugging away at my "spur of the moment" location of Atlantis, there has to be a serious flaw..

And if you cowardly / Brettly go, leave your posts for anothe day.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI: Battle? what battle? ORO and I never battle, only try to find the truth as much as we can with limited and faulted data.. If he, or I, can find a fault, then we do not have the truth and must return to the drawing board.

We do not play "one up", that is useless.up game.

Join us.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigos,

I can sure leave the posts here, just got a very distinct impression that they had offended someone to the point that they were leaving the thread, and I have ZERO desire to be driving away anyone, just was enjoying the discussion. I have to agree with mi amigo Don Real, Dueno de Tayopa, the impression that there is some "battle" taking place is mistaken, it is a battle only for opinions using facts, logic and "argument" (using the term as a descriptive noun, not like a heated verbal assault) there has been no desire to insult or offend anyone. Since I was not sure what I had said that was offensive, my only recourse would be to just remove them all.

To Brett and to any one and everyone else whom I have offended with my words, I extend my sincere apologies, and if you would PM the offending statements I have NO problem in removing or editing them so as NOT to be offensive.

Don Real, Dueno de Tayopa, your proposed site certainly is an interesting one. As far as I know, no one is actually searching in that region for Atlantis, so as long as no one looks, it is a sure thing nothing can be found. You have given me an idea though - what about fishing nets, specifically the dragline type that are dragged along the bottom? I wonder if anyone has ever brought up anything "unusual" from that area?
Oroblanco

 

[Highmountain]

HOLA mi amigos,

I can sure leave the posts here, just got a very distinct impression that they had offended someone to the point that they were leaving the thread, and I have ZERO desire to be driving away anyone, just was enjoying the discussion. I have to agree with mi amigo Don Real, Dueno de Tayopa, the impression that there is some "battle" taking place is mistaken, it is a battle only for opinions using facts, logic and "argument" (using the term as a descriptive noun, not like a heated verbal assault) there has been no desire to insult or offend anyone. Since I was not sure what I had said that was offensive, my only recourse would be to just remove them all.

To Brett and to any one and everyone else whom I have offended with my words, I extend my sincere apologies, and if you would PM the offending statements I have NO problem in removing or editing them so as NOT to be offensive.

Don Real, Dueno de Tayopa, your proposed site certainly is an interesting one. As far as I know, no one is actually searching in that region for Atlantis, so as long as no one looks, it is a sure thing nothing can be found. You have given me an idea though - what about fishing nets, specifically the dragline type that are dragged along the bottom? I wonder if anyone has ever brought up anything "unusual" from that area?
Oroblanco

Hi Oro: [Tongue-in-cheek] I sort of wish you'd make up your mind. I almost unsubscribed this morning when I saw your post and would have done so by now if you hadn't retracted it.

I don't have an opinion about any of this and haven't contributed a thing, probably won't. But I subscribe to the thread because I enjoy reading and pondering the discussion here. You've been an integral part of that discussion. I think it would all dry up if you weren't throwing in your pieces and bits.

Jack

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you for the kind words mi amigo Jack - I just didn't wish to be offending someone and didn't know what had been offensive. I do hope you will post your own views on the subject, the more folks who will join in the better the discussion in my opinion. We have already lost one poster here after all.

To try to return to the topic...

If we are to examine the location proposed by our mutual amigo Don Real, Dueno de Tayopa, perhaps it would be appropriate to take a look at the natives of the Canary islands, the Guanches? quote:

THE NATIVES OF THE CANARY ISLANDS
Europeans re-discovered the Fortunate islands in the first half of the XIVth century. They found living there a people who later came to be known as the Guanches, and who are still the object of great mystery.

Where did they come from? How did they reach the islands? When did they arrive?

They had to have arrived by sea, of course. And they arrived with their domesticated animals: goats, sheep, pigs and dogs. They brought with them wheat and barley.

(from http://www.clanrossi.com/Canary Islands.htm )

These mysterious people had goats, sheep, pigs and dogs; they were cultivating wheat and barley. Could these examples of livestock and plant products be an indicator of their origins? Thank you in advance,
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[Highmountain]

This is a cool thread. A lot of people are reading it, being interested in it, probably being exposed to a lot of info they wouldn't encounter otherwise.

What they can and frequently do encounter otherwise is people getting their hackles up.

Atlantis ain't going nowhere, gonna stay the same place it is whatever the ideas, evidence and certainties to the contrary. We take a vote on where it is, whichever side wins the election ain't going to convince it to move.

I surely am enjoying absorbing the interchange of ideas and evidence on this thread. Surely would enjoy it less if people were arguing about tone and innuendo instead of discussing content and ideas.

Just my own personal preferences, which mean nothing.

Jack

 

[Highmountain]

Oh....I will be removing my useless replies to this topic unless there is a good reason to keep them.

Brett: Why not think about it, decide tomorrow, day after tomorrow. Nobody's going to hold you to a deadline and after you sleep on things you might remember enjoying participating and the thinking that went with it instead of what you see as being slighted or insulted, which I don't think you were intentionally.

But a man needs to do what he thinks is best..

Blessings to you whatever you do.

Jack

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

Now, I'm not going to be overly skeptical about the existence of Atlantis...
even if, as an (almost) professional researcher, I've found very little of what I'd deem "credible" evidence to support it, It's still fun to look for...treasure hunting is about long shots anyway. My Library is in possession of a book called "Mundus Subterranius" by a crazy 17th century Jesuit. It contains a map detailing the route to Atlantis, as well as a few other fanciful locations. I don't think there's anything special about this map (he might have just doodled it up himself), but it's still worth a look...it's definitely a thread of the Atlantis Legend that hasn't been examined as much. I'll post it later on my next trip up to the library.

This was a special project of mine a few years back...there are some things you have to consider from a research standpoint:
Sources like Plato are like the Bible. You can't pick and choose which parts to examine on a whim...if one part is "misunderstood" "exaggerated", "corrupted" or "Symbolic" you need to point to reasons why other pieces of evidence aren't.
Having said that, I'm going to reiterate what's been said in this post already:

1) Plato said it was a massive island, larger, in fact, than the whole of Asia. Now, Plato's "Asia" was smaller than ours, but this thing was still easily twice as big as Greece*. You aren't looking for a "lost city" or "lost Island", you're looking for a lost continent, even if he didn't say it was.

2) Plato also said that they lived "Beyond the Pillars of Hercules"...I also have in my notes, written down "On The True Sea"...I don't know why, but I'll go look it up later. Point is, keep that in mind when pinning down a location.

3) Atlantis sunk to the sea in a single night and a day. Given that this was (as aformentioned) an enormous land mass, there really isn't a recognized geologic event that can do that, and leave little trace. I don't mean to say that this makes the notion impossible, but you're really going to have to rack your brains to figure out how. Divine Intervention is (in my mind) the likely cause. Let me throw one pessamistic idea into the fray: After a disaster like that, and 11,000 years on the sea-floor...not much treasure will remain. You might still find some gold, I guess...I'll leave this for someone qualified to asses

4) Plato makes no mention of aliens, super-technology, or eternal life. I'm pleased to see this thread doesn't have much of that either. It does enormous disservice to our ancient ancestors to assume that they needed "modern" equpitment to do some of the things they did; and it corrupts any attempt to actually find Atlantis.

Having said that, I think the world is far stranger and more wonderful than anyone can hope to explain, and some of the strange stuff i've seen in my 5 year tenure as a librarian leads me to believe that there's far less plausible things out there than Atlantis...and I believe in all of THEM...so, yeah, it's not too much of a streach







* Thats a VERY conservative estimate.

 

[Highmountain]

Now, I'm not going to be overly skeptical about the existence of Atlantis...
even if, as an (almost) professional researcher, I've found very little of what I'd deem "credible" evidence to support it, It's still fun to look for...treasure hunting is about long shots anyway. My Library is in possession of a book called "Mundus Subterranius" by a crazy 17th century Jesuit. It contains a map detailing the route to Atlantis, as well as a few other fanciful locations. I don't think there's anything special about this map (he might have just doodled it up himself), but it's still worth a look...it's definitely a thread of the Atlantis Legend that hasn't been examined as much. I'll post it later on my next trip up to the library.

This was a special project of mine a few years back...there are some things you have to consider from a research standpoint:
Sources like Plato are like the Bible. You can't pick and choose which parts to examine on a whim...if one part is "misunderstood" "exaggerated", "corrupted" or "Symbolic" you need to point to reasons why other pieces of evidence aren't.
Having said that, I'm going to reiterate what's been said in this post already:

1) Plato said it was a massive island, larger, in fact, than the whole of Asia. Now, Plato's "Asia" was smaller than ours, but this thing was still easily twice as big as Greece*. You aren't looking for a "lost city" or "lost Island", you're looking for a lost continent, even if he didn't say it was.

2) Plato also said that they lived "Beyond the Pillars of Hercules"...I also have in my notes, written down "On The True Sea"...I don't know why, but I'll go look it up later. Point is, keep that in mind when pinning down a location.

3) Atlantis sunk to the sea in a single night and a day. Given that this was (as aformentioned) an enormous land mass, there really isn't a recognized geologic event that can do that, and leave little trace. I don't mean to say that this makes the notion impossible, but you're really going to have to rack your brains to figure out how. Divine Intervention is (in my mind) the likely cause. Let me throw one pessamistic idea into the fray: After a disaster like that, and 11,000 years on the sea-floor...not much treasure will remain. You might still find some gold, I guess...I'll leave this for someone qualified to asses

4) Plato makes no mention of aliens, super-technology, or eternal life. I'm pleased to see this thread doesn't have much of that either. It does enormous disservice to our ancient ancestors to assume that they needed "modern" equpitment to do some of the things they did; and it corrupts any attempt to actually find Atlantis.

Having said that, I think the world is far stranger and more wonderful than anyone can hope to explain, and some of the strange stuff i've seen in my 5 year tenure as a librarian leads me to believe that there's far less plausible things out there than Atlantis...and I believe in all of THEM...so, yeah, it's not too much of a streach

* Thats a VERY conservative estimate.

William: Interesting summation. Thanks for sharing it.

I believe a tectonic/geological event sufficient to make a land area even the size of Greece vanish beneath the sea would be a big job of work. Several times larger would demand an event of such magnitude as to do a lot of other things over an awfully lot larger area. I don't see anyone near such an event surviving to tell how long it took. That would have to be guesswork of somebody after-the-fact. Even an object the size of a ship sinking beneath the waves drags everything it can catch down with it. A continent? When the area where it used to be covered itself with seawater the currents filling the void and the whirlpools and turbulent downward forces would be unimaginable.

Having said that, I think the world is far stranger and more wonderful than anyone can hope to explain, and some of the strange stuff i've seen in my 5 year tenure as a librarian leads me to believe that there's far less plausible things out there than Atlantis...and I believe in all of THEM...so, yeah, it's not too much of a streach

I agree with you completely on this. I operate on the assumption a man's got to be careful what he believes because there's such a high degree of probability what he does believe just ain't so. That's double-true for things he definitely believes to be NOT true.

4) Plato makes no mention of aliens, super-technology, or eternal life. I'm pleased to see this thread doesn't have much of that either. It does enormous disservice to our ancient ancestors to assume that they needed "modern" equpitment to do some of the things they did; and it corrupts any attempt to actually find Atlantis.

Seems to me you're drawing a boundary here that isn't necessary. No point ruling out UFOs and aliens, since they might be one of the only ways of explaining how to make a continent sink beneath the sea in a more-or-less subdued way that didn't rattle teeth all over the planet. Not ruling them in, either, just not ruling them out.

If a person's going to allow Atlantis as a possibility because of stories by ancients it seems to me there's almost a demand you give some latitude as to what else is allowed in, including the possibility of aliens or at least equipment of an advanced enough sort for us to think today they didn't have it. For instance there's the various flying things of all descriptions from a LOT of ancient texts and traditions. Didn't have to be aliens, didn't even have to be Atlanteans. But if you're going to allow ancient traditions into things it's going to be a hair-splitting operation to exclude the premise that SOMEBODY back there could fly heavier than air.

And truthfully, precisely why not? Take a look at the Wright Flyer diagrams sometime and ask yourself how much of it was made of equipment that couldn't have been duplicated by any sophisticated civilization in human history, along with some non-sophisticated ones. The answer you'll find, is the powerplant.

And I'd argue there are quite possibly as many ways ancients might have gotten around that one as there are ancient civilizations.

Thanks for sharing the ideas and observations. Nice post.
Jack

 

[Highmountain]

Afterthought: You might ponder this.

We got into the habit of thinking ancients couldn't heavier-than-air flight because we couldn't do it until early last-century. Once we learned to do it, we learned fast and within a hair of half-century landed men on the moon and had the ability to fly non-stop around the world.

You said we do the ancients a disservice to suggest they 'needed' modern technology. Seems to me what does them a disservice is to suggest they were stupider than we are.

Human invention, once it happens, builds on itself as a rule. Assuming there was nobody in human history besides a couple of bicycle mechanics smart enough to figure out basic aerodynamics assumes an awfully lot.

Not to say it happened. I'm just saying it's as good a possibility as a continent sinking beneath the sea and leaving anything alive on land in the western hemisphere larger than a tree-frog or water snake.

Jack

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

oh, I'm not suggesting they were stupider than us, if anything I'm saying the opposite:

What I'm saying is that the pyramids, zuggarats, easter island totems, Nazca Lines, British Burial Mounds and Aritifical Hills, Mesoamerican temples, and Indian Iron pillars were all constructed by the ingenuity of their respective civilizations*, who had no need for outside aide from aliens or supersmart proto-europeans to get the job done. Everything I've learned in my studies of ancient civilizations suggests that if people have lots of spare time and want to build something real big, they'll figure out a way.

You have a point though, Highmountain, I suppose I can't entirely rule out Aliens; It just seems to me that if we're truly searching for the Atlantis discussed by Plato, we should believe what he says before we accept the much later theories of a bunch of crystal-gripping spiritualists...no offense if any of you are part of the New Age movement.