Atlantis

[TheTreasure]

I would say that if anyone ever found Atlantis, it would probably be a treasure of unheard of wealth. Other than the tons of gold it supposedly has there are artifacts and historical valuable relics!

Lets talk about this place, where is it located and what can WE do to help someone find it? Anyone has maps they are sitting on, with the location of Atlantis?

 

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[Salvor6]

Atlantis was found years ago. If you keep up with the latest archaeological news you would know that the island of Thera in the Med. Sea is now accepted as the site Homer first described. There is no "tons of gold" there.

 

[TheTreasure]

Maybe they didnt look close enough. There is always gold in those locations Got any links?

 

[Oroblanco]

Tag - (so I can follow this thread easy, and yep I am that lazy!)

I respectfully disagree with the idea of Thera as Atlantis too - many problems with that interpretation. Want a list? - it is a relatively tiny island, it was not the capital of the Minoan empire, it blew up in a volcanic explosion (read Plato - there is NO volcanic eruption(s) only "earthquakes and floods") it is closer to 900 than 9000 years, there were NO elephants on Thera, and the Minoan civilization died over the course of a century, not overnight. With this many problems, there is no way that Thera was/is Atlantis.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello,

I fully agree with Oroblanco regarding the location of Atlantis. There are many other possible locations, not ony Thera, and this tiny island was proved not to be the legendary Atlantis. Couple of years ago there was a discovery of I think Canadian archaeologist in Cuban territorial waters. The pictures from ROV flew all over the world then. Man made structures on the sea bottom reminding town and roads. The same can be seen also close to Bimini. The so called "Bimini road" can be seen even from the air. It is a kind of "paved road" going out to the ocan.This underwater structure is also mentioned in Menzies book "The year 1421 when the Chinese discovered the world". There are locations that could also apply to be ancient prosperous towns. For example mystical underwater town of Yonaguni close to the Japanese island Kjushu is dated to exist 10,000 years ago. The similar underwater structures were found in ther places in the world, too.

Bobadilla

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey all,
Wasn't the Azores high on the list as well

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

You are correct amigo - and in the Azores we know there has been catastrophic island-shelf subsidences in the past, when huge parts of the islands simply fell into the sea and caused massive mega-tsunamis that actually appear to have re-shaped whole islands on the other side of the Atlantic. The historians dismiss the idea of a civilization existing some 11,000 years ago, but if you look at 9500 BC it is not impossible and we know that the Ice Age ended quite abruptly with sea levels rising drastically and fast. As to how much treasure there might be if the capital city of Atlantis could be located - if Plato is to be trusted the amount would be staggering, possibly tons and tons of gold and silver!
Oroblanco

PS my own bet is on some of the lands lost by sea-levels rising circa 9500 BC - for instance the Flemish Cap, the Grand Banks, and many others. There have been some massive floods right around the end of the last Ice Age, including when the Mediterranean basin got filled (causing Ice Age animals like wooly rhinos to be washed into caves in the islands around Malta) and the Black Sea basin flooded, plus we know of whole cities that disappeared like Atlantis, including Helike in Greece, Dolchiste in Turkey, the old Pirate-city of Port Royal that suffered an earthquake and sank into the Caribbean, among several so that 'old saw' from the historians about how it could never happen is pure BS.

 

[cptbil]

OroBlanco:
Hey!
I KNEW THAT!

 

[allen_idaho]

If I were to make a guess about Atlantis, assuming it ever existed and wasn't just a morality tale written by Homer, I would say this:

It was most likely a volcanic island in the south atlantic. The island most likely suffered a massive eruption similar to the devastation caused by Krakatoa. Once it erupted, the volcano became hollow and could no longer withstand the pressure of the seawater. Then it imploded upon itself, sucking in the island atop it and burying it deep within the ocean floor. This would also be similar to how Crater Lake in Washington was formed.

 

[Oroblanco]

I think you mean Plato, as he is generally credited with "inventing" Atlantis even though we can prove that he did not - and if the tale was supposed to be a morality play and fictional, it would be the only such type of writing Plato ever did. The story of Atlantis is older than Plato however so if someone invented it as a morals story it would have to be someone else.

Ignatius Donnelly, the fellow who is credited with popularizing Atlantis, had the idea that the destruction of Atlantis and the great flood of Noah were one and the same thing.
Oroblanco

 

[Bobadilla]

Many prophecies and legends seem to have the same base in the world - Noah biblical flood, Atlantis, dissapearing of big cities, changes in the nature..... The Maya calendar starts 10,000 years ago when big comet was supposed to hit the Earth and to cause an enormous wave that covered almost everything. Only couple of big cities high in the mountains survived the disaster. These cities were constructed with obviously advanced technological knowledge known to the former civilization (from Atlantis??). The rests of these cities is, for example Sascayhuaman, constructed from giant blocks of dozens of tons high in the Andes. Remember stories from Egyptians burial temples talking about advanced civilization living around Nil exactly 10,000 years ago. The knowledge of faraons derived from them. To make long story short - some nature disaster could really cause the end of advanced civilization like Atllantis was. Just my opinion.....

Bobadilla

 

[wazonme]

Can't find a reasonable explanation I've come up with two. The government put it in his back pocket or Aliens, those are universal explanations.

 

[allen_idaho]

I don't see why people are always saying Atlantis had some sort of advanced technology. Beyond what a nutjob "psychic" said, there is no basis for this assumption. According to the story they were basically a rich trading society similar to those of ancient asia. Sorry, no crystal powers.

 

[Salvor6]

Hey Allen, you have the most reasonable explaination. There were no aliens involved, just nature. The reason Thera is small is that Atlantis exploded, Thera is all thats left! The rest of the continent is in the deep sea. There are no tons of gold and silver. That is just a myth. Where would they get it from and for what purpose? And if they did have tons of gold, it disappeared in the explosion. Yonagumi has not been proven to be man made. If you look at the topography of the land above water you will see the same rock shapes that look like buildings. It is called beach stone and flag stone. Plato gives no hard evidence that Atlantis is more than a fable. Serious treasure hunters use hard evidence and archival documents to find treasure. Crackpots use legends with no hard facts to search for their dreams. This is just my worthless opinion but lets see if Atlantis is found in the next 10 years.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Atlantis (LONG reply extra coffee alert)

HOLA amigos,

I am partially in agreement with the statements, particularly those relating to Atlantis NOT having any kind of "magic crystals" or high technology (these are modern additions usually traced to Edgar Cayce) but respectfully also partially in disagreement, in particular with the idea of Thera/Santorini (and the Minoans) being Atlantis. There are numerous problems with making the Minoans into Atlantis. Here is what Plato said, translated into English:

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.

(extract from Timaeus by Plato v~360 BC

How can this be twisted into Crete and Thera? The Minoans were not a power located out in the Atlantic, and were much more recent, they had no elephants on the islands, they did not vanish in a day but lasted over a century after the eruption of Thera, this volcanic eruption seems to have been the cause the end of the Minoans, but there was no volcanic eruption in the end of Atlantis, only "earthquakes and floods". Here is Plato's description of the end of Atlantis:
quote

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

ibid

Note - NO mention of any kind of volcanic eruption, which would be a very important point to include if it were a part of the disaster!

There is more detail in Critias (I will post the whole relevant dialogue, for those who have never read it)

quote

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe. Of the combatants on the one side, the city of Athens was reported to have been the leader and to have fought out the war; the combatants on the other side were commanded by the kings of Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean. The progress of the history will unfold the various nations of barbarians and families of Hellenes which then existed, as they successively appear on the scene; but I must describe first of all Athenians of that day, and their enemies who fought with them, and then the respective powers and governments of the two kingdoms. Let us give the precedence to Athens.

In the days of old the gods had the whole earth distributed among them by allotment. There was no quarrelling; for you cannot rightly suppose that the gods did not know what was proper for each of them to have, or, knowing this, that they would seek to procure for themselves by contention that which more properly belonged to others. They all of them by just apportionment obtained what they wanted, and peopled their own districts; and when they had peopled them they tended us, their nurselings and possessions, as shepherds tend their flocks, excepting only that they did not use blows or bodily force, as shepherds do, but governed us like pilots from the stern of the vessel, which is an easy way of guiding animals, holding our souls by the rudder of persuasion according to their own pleasure;-thus did they guide all mortal creatures. Now different gods had their allotments in different places which they set in order. Hephaestus and Athene, who were brother and sister, and sprang from the same father, having a common nature, and being united also in the love of philosophy and art, both obtained as their common portion this land, which was naturally adapted for wisdom and virtue; and there they implanted brave children of the soil, and put into their minds the order of government; their names are preserved, but their actions have disappeared by reason of the destruction of those who received the tradition, and the lapse of ages. For when there were any survivors, as I have already said, they were men who dwelt in the mountains; and they were ignorant of the art of writing, and had heard only the names of the chiefs of the land, but very little about their actions. The names they were willing enough to give to their children; but the virtues and the laws of their predecessors, they knew only by obscure traditions; and as they themselves and their children lacked for many generations the necessaries of life, they directed their attention to the supply of their wants, and of them they conversed, to the neglect of events that had happened in times long past; for mythology and the enquiry into antiquity are first introduced into cities when they begin to have leisure, and when they see that the necessaries of life have already been provided, but not before. And this is reason why the names of the ancients have been preserved to us and not their actions. This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon, and the names of the women in like manner. Moreover, since military pursuits were then common to men and women, the men of those days in accordance with the custom of the time set up a figure and image of the goddess in full armour, to be a testimony that all animals which associate together, male as well as female, may, if they please, practise in common the virtue which belongs to them without distinction of sex.

Now the country was inhabited in those days by various classes of citizens;-there were artisans, and there were husbandmen, and there was also a warrior class originally set apart by divine men. The latter dwelt by themselves, and had all things suitable for nurture and education; neither had any of them anything of their own, but they regarded all that they had as common property; nor did they claim to receive of the other citizens anything more than their necessary food. And they practised all the pursuits which we yesterday described as those of our imaginary guardians. Concerning the country the Egyptian priests said what is not only probable but manifestly true, that the boundaries were in those days fixed by the Isthmus, and that in the direction of the continent they extended as far as the heights of Cithaeron and Parnes; the boundary line came down in the direction of the sea, having the district of Oropus on the right, and with the river Asopus as the limit on the left. The land was the best in the world, and was therefore able in those days to support a vast army, raised from the surrounding people. Even the remnant of Attica which now exists may compare with any region in the world for the variety and excellence of its fruits and the suitableness of its pastures to every sort of animal, which proves what I am saying; but in those days the country was fair as now and yielded far more abundant produce. How shall I establish my words? and what part of it can be truly called a remnant of the land that then was? The whole country is only a long promontory extending far into the sea away from the rest of the continent, while the surrounding basin of the sea is everywhere deep in the neighbourhood of the shore. Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking; and during all this time and through so many changes, there has never been any considerable accumulation of the soil coming down from the mountains, as in other places, but the earth has fallen away all round and sunk out of sight. The consequence is, that in comparison of what then was, there are remaining only the bones of the wasted body, as they may be called, as in the case of small islands, all the richer and softer parts of the soil having fallen away, and the mere skeleton of the land being left. But in the primitive state of the country, its mountains were high hills covered with soil, and the plains, as they are termed by us, of Phelleus were full of rich earth, and there was abundance of wood in the mountains. Of this last the traces still remain, for although some of the mountains now only afford sustenance to bees, not so very long ago there were still to be seen roofs of timber cut from trees growing there, which were of a size sufficient to cover the largest houses; and there were many other high trees, cultivated by man and bearing abundance of food for cattle. Moreover, the land reaped the benefit of the annual rainfall, not as now losing the water which flows off the bare earth into the sea, but, having an abundant supply in all places, and receiving it into herself and treasuring it up in the close clay soil, it let off into the hollows the streams which it absorbed from the heights, providing everywhere abundant fountains and rivers, of which there may still be observed sacred memorials in places where fountains once existed; and this proves the truth of what I am saying.

Such was the natural state of the country, which was cultivated, as we may well believe, by true husbandmen, who made husbandry their business, and were lovers of honour, and of a noble nature, and had a soil the best in the world, and abundance of water, and in the heaven above an excellently attempered climate. Now the city in those days was arranged on this wise. In the first place the Acropolis was not as now. For the fact is that a single night of excessive rain washed away the earth and laid bare the rock; at the same time there were earthquakes, and then occurred the extraordinary inundation, which was the third before the great destruction of Deucalion. But in primitive times the hill of the Acropolis extended to the Eridanus and Ilissus, and included the Pnyx on one side, and the Lycabettus as a boundary on the opposite side to the Pnyx, and was all well covered with soil, and level at the top, except in one or two places. Outside the Acropolis and under the sides of the hill there dwelt artisans, and such of the husbandmen as were tilling the ground near; the warrior class dwelt by themselves around the temples of Athene and Hephaestus at the summit, which moreover they had enclosed with a single fence like the garden of a single house. On the north side they had dwellings in common and had erected halls for dining in winter, and had all the buildings which they needed for their common life, besides temples, but there was no adorning of them with gold and silver, for they made no use of these for any purpose; they took a middle course between meanness and ostentation, and built modest houses in which they and their children's children grew old, and they handed them down to others who were like themselves, always the same. But in summer-time they left their gardens and gymnasia and dining halls, and then the southern side of the hill was made use of by them for the same purpose. Where the Acropolis now is there was a fountain, which was choked by the earthquake, and has left only the few small streams which still exist in the vicinity, but in those days the fountain gave an abundant supply of water for all and of suitable temperature in summer and in winter. This is how they dwelt, being the guardians of their own citizens and the leaders of the Hellenes, who were their willing followers. And they took care to preserve the same number of men and women through all time, being so many as were required for warlike purposes, then as now-that is to say, about twenty thousand. Such were the ancient Athenians, and after this manner they righteously administered their own land and the rest of Hellas; they were renowned all over Europe and Asia for the beauty of their persons and for the many virtues of their souls, and of all men who lived in those days they were the most illustrious. And next, if I have not forgotten what I heard when I was a child, I will impart to you the character and origin of their adversaries. For friends should not keep their stories to themselves, but have them in common.

Yet, before proceeding further in the narrative, I ought to warn you, that you must not be surprised if you should perhaps hear Hellenic names given to foreigners. I will tell you the reason of this: Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language. My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child. Therefore if you hear names such as are used in this country, you must not be surprised, for I have told how they came to be introduced. The tale, which was of great length, began as follows:-

I have before remarked in speaking of the allotments of the gods, that they distributed the whole earth into portions differing in extent, and made for themselves temples and instituted sacrifices. And Poseidon, receiving for his lot the island of Atlantis, begat children by a mortal woman, and settled them in a part of the island, which I will describe. Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile. Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side.

In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito. The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet. He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil. He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus. Of the second pair of twins he called one Ampheres, and the other Evaemon. To the elder of the third pair of twins he gave the name Mneseus, and Autochthon to the one who followed him. Of the fourth pair of twins he called the elder Elasippus, and the younger Mestor. And of the fifth pair he gave to the elder the name of Azaes, and to the younger that of Diaprepes. All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia.

Now Atlas had a numerous and honourable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations; and they had such an amount of wealth as was never before possessed by kings and potentates, and is not likely ever to be again, and they were furnished with everything which they needed, both in the city and country. For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries, and the island itself provided most of what was required by them for the uses of life. In the first place, they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, solid as well as fusile, and that which is now only a name and was then something more than a name, orichalcum, was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, being more precious in those days than anything except gold. There was an abundance of wood for carpenter's work, and sufficient maintenance for tame and wild animals. Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island; for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all. Also whatever fragrant things there now are in the earth, whether roots, or herbage, or woods, or essences which distil from fruit and flower, grew and thrived in that land; also the fruit which admits of cultivation, both the dry sort, which is given us for nourishment and any other which we use for food-we call them all by the common name pulse, and the fruits having a hard rind, affording drinks and meats and ointments, and good store of chestnuts and the like, which furnish pleasure and amusement, and are fruits which spoil with keeping, and the pleasant kinds of dessert, with which we console ourselves after dinner, when we are tired of eating-all these that sacred island which then beheld the light of the sun, brought forth fair and wondrous and in infinite abundance. With such blessings the earth freely furnished them; meanwhile they went on constructing their temples and palaces and harbours and docks. And they arranged the whole country in the following manner:

First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty. And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress. Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water. Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia. All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in. The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock. Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight. The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum.

The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise:-in the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold; this was the spot where the family of the ten princes first saw the light, and thither the people annually brought the fruits of the earth in their season from all the ten portions, to be an offering to each of the ten. Here was Poseidon's own temple which was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum; and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum. In the temple they placed statues of gold: there was the god himself standing in a chariot-the charioteer of six winged horses-and of such a size that he touched the roof of the building with his head; around him there were a hundred Nereids riding on dolphins, for such was thought to be the number of them by the men of those days. There were also in the interior of the temple other images which had been dedicated by private persons. And around the temple on the outside were placed statues of gold of all the descendants of the ten kings and of their wives, and there were many other great offerings of kings and of private persons, coming both from the city itself and from the foreign cities over which they held sway. There was an altar too, which in size and workmanship corresponded to this magnificence, and the palaces, in like manner, answered to the greatness of the kingdom and the glory of the temple.

In the next place, they had fountains, one of cold and another of hot water, in gracious plenty flowing; and they were wonderfully adapted for use by reason of the pleasantness and excellence of their waters. They constructed buildings about them and planted suitable trees, also they made cisterns, some open to the heavens, others roofed over, to be used in winter as warm baths; there were the kings' baths, and the baths of private persons, which were kept apart; and there were separate baths for women, and for horses and cattle, and to each of them they gave as much adornment as was suitable. Of the water which ran off they carried some to the grove of Poseidon, where were growing all manner of trees of wonderful height and beauty, owing to the excellence of the soil, while the remainder was conveyed by aqueducts along the bridges to the outer circles; and there were many temples built and dedicated to many gods; also gardens and places of exercise, some for men, and others for horses in both of the two islands formed by the zones; and in the centre of the larger of the two there was set apart a race-course of a stadium in width, and in length allowed to extend all round the island, for horses to race in. Also there were guardhouses at intervals for the guards, the more trusted of whom were appointed-to keep watch in the lesser zone, which was nearer the Acropolis while the most trusted of all had houses given them within the citadel, near the persons of the kings. The docks were full of triremes and naval stores, and all things were quite ready for use. Enough of the plan of the royal palace.

Leaving the palace and passing out across the three you came to a wall which began at the sea and went all round: this was everywhere distant fifty stadia from the largest zone or harbour, and enclosed the whole, the ends meeting at the mouth of the channel which led to the sea. The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.

I have described the city and the environs of the ancient palace nearly in the words of Solon, and now I must endeavour to represent the nature and arrangement of the rest of the land. The whole country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea, but the country immediately about and surrounding the city was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea; it was smooth and even, and of an oblong shape, extending in one direction three thousand stadia, but across the centre inland it was two thousand stadia. This part of the island looked towards the south, and was sheltered from the north. The surrounding mountains were celebrated for their number and size and beauty, far beyond any which still exist, having in them also many wealthy villages of country folk, and rivers, and lakes, and meadows supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame, and much wood of various sorts, abundant for each and every kind of work.

I will now describe the plain, as it was fashioned by nature and by the labours of many generations of kings through long ages. It was for the most part rectangular and oblong, and where falling out of the straight line followed the circular ditch. The depth, and width, and length of this ditch were incredible, and gave the impression that a work of such extent, in addition to so many others, could never have been artificial. Nevertheless I must say what I was told. It was excavated to the depth of a hundred, feet, and its breadth was a stadium everywhere; it was carried round the whole of the plain, and was ten thousand stadia in length. It received the streams which came down from the mountains, and winding round the plain and meeting at the city, was there let off into the sea. Further inland, likewise, straight canals of a hundred feet in width were cut from it through the plain, and again let off into the ditch leading to the sea: these canals were at intervals of a hundred stadia, and by them they brought down the wood from the mountains to the city, and conveyed the fruits of the earth in ships, cutting transverse passages from one canal into another, and to the city. Twice in the year they gathered the fruits of the earth-in winter having the benefit of the rains of heaven, and in summer the water which the land supplied by introducing streams from the canals.

As to the population, each of the lots in the plain had to find a leader for the men who were fit for military service, and the size of a lot was a square of ten stadia each way, and the total number of all the lots was sixty thousand. And of the inhabitants of the mountains and of the rest of the country there was also a vast multitude, which was distributed among the lots and had leaders assigned to them according to their districts and villages. The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of a war-chariot, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots; also two horses and riders for them, and a pair of chariot-horses without a seat, accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield, and having a charioteer who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; also, he was bound to furnish two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships. Such was the military order of the royal city-the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.

As to offices and honours, the following was the arrangement from the first. Each of the ten kings in his own division and in his own city had the absolute control of the citizens, and, in most cases, of the laws, punishing and slaying whomsoever he would. Now the order of precedence among them and their mutual relations were regulated by the commands of Poseidon which the law had handed down. These were inscribed by the first kings on a pillar of orichalcum, which was situated in the middle of the island, at the temple of Poseidon, whither the kings were gathered together every fifth and every sixth year alternately, thus giving equal honour to the odd and to the even number. And when they were gathered together they consulted about their common interests, and enquired if any one had transgressed in anything and passed judgment and before they passed judgment they gave their pledges to one another on this wise:-There were bulls who had the range of the temple of Poseidon; and the ten kings, being left alone in the temple, after they had offered prayers to the god that they might capture the victim which was acceptable to him, hunted the bulls, without weapons but with staves and nooses; and the bull which they caught they led up to the pillar and cut its throat over the top of it so that the blood fell upon the sacred inscription. Now on the pillar, besides the laws, there was inscribed an oath invoking mighty curses on the disobedient. When therefore, after slaying the bull in the accustomed manner, they had burnt its limbs, they filled a bowl of wine and cast in a clot of blood for each of them; the rest of the victim they put in the fire, after having purified the column all round. Then they drew from the bowl in golden cups and pouring a libation on the fire, they swore that they would judge according to the laws on the pillar, and would punish him who in any point had already transgressed them, and that for the future they would not, if they could help, offend against the writing on the pillar, and would neither command others, nor obey any ruler who commanded them, to act otherwise than according to the laws of their father Poseidon. This was the prayer which each of them-offered up for himself and for his descendants, at the same time drinking and dedicating the cup out of which he drank in the temple of the god; and after they had supped and satisfied their needs, when darkness came on, and the fire about the sacrifice was cool, all of them put on most beautiful azure robes, and, sitting on the ground, at night, over the embers of the sacrifices by which they had sworn, and extinguishing all the fire about the temple, they received and gave judgment, if any of them had an accusation to bring against any one; and when they given judgment, at daybreak they wrote down their sentences on a golden tablet, and dedicated it together with their robes to be a memorial.

There were many special laws affecting the several kings inscribed about the temples, but the most important was the following: They were not to take up arms against one another, and they were all to come to the rescue if any one in any of their cities attempted to overthrow the royal house; like their ancestors, they were to deliberate in common about war and other matters, giving the supremacy to the descendants of Atlas. And the king was not to have the power of life and death over any of his kinsmen unless he had the assent of the majority of the ten.

Such was the vast power which the god settled in the lost island of Atlantis; and this he afterwards directed against our land for the following reasons, as tradition tells: For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them. By such reflections and by the continuance in them of a divine nature, the qualities which we have described grew and increased among them; but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power. Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows-* The rest of the Dialogue of Critias has been lost.

from Critias by Plato, c~360 BC

I have put a number of the relevant descriptive statements in BOLD type to highlight them for the reader - it is quite specific, and there is no island in the Mediterranean sea that could ever fit with this description. Plato has specifically placed Atlantis out in the Atlantic ocean, and says the Mediterranean is just a "harbor" by comparison to the Atlantic. Please note that the first part of Critias is describing ancient Greece and Athens, then goes on to Atlantis but includes some striking statements - such as both men and women fought as soldiers! Most anthropologists now think that in the Neolithic period, both men and women did act as warriors and hunters as teams in many cultures. Another interesting point is that Greece of Plato's time was a much less bountiful land than prior to this great flood. We also know that the Mediterranean basin (like the Black Sea) was flooded in a vast catastrophic event when the Atlantic broke through the straits of Gibraltar (Pillars of Herakles). So there are interesting points that we can prove as real history, geologically.

My apologies for the extra-long winded post, just thought perhaps some of our readers have never read Plato's actual descriptions of Atlantis but have been going on what others have written, especially those who have been trying to "shoe-fit" their theoretical location with Atlantis like Thera. We can also prove that Plato is not the creator of the story of Atlantis too - for Herodotus mentioned it over 100 years before Plato sat down to write, and Plutarch records that Solon, the man Plato drew his information from, was in fact writing a history of Atlantis but failed to complete it before his death.

I think it is just a wee bit haughty to set a time limit of ten years to locate Atlantis, when it took centuries to find Troy and centuries to find Helike, so what makes Atlantis so "findable" or dis-provable that we must do it in ten years? Remember this is a culture that lived some 11,000 years ago so there has been plenty of time for nature to hide and conceal it. Then again, at least a half-dozen people already claim to have found it! I respectfully disagree with all of them (so far) with one that I have to grant is a weak "maybe" - Bolivia. Big problems with Bolivia = Atlantis idea too, but at least Bolivia does have the correct size plain, mountains, and is the only place in the world where orichalcum (as a natural alloy) has ever been found.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Just a note to all....
Ya better come VERY prepared when you talk about ANYTHING from the " ancient " timeline to my man Oroblanco... I have read some of his stuff... I my own opinion he is a extremely qualified historian ( I think the word amateur should not be used here ) with a discipline in the ancient world. I value his knowledge and I am proud to call him a friend. It makes me feel good when someone has spent years on a particular timeline and he did it for the love of the subject. YOU ROCK !!!!

PLL

 

[Old Dog]

PLL,
Some of us have been saying that for a long time.
Kind of cool to see someone beat me to it

LOL
Thom

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigos and thank you for the kind words! Now my danged head will be so swelled-up my hat won't fit! I find the good folks here on T-net to be a well-educated bunch when it comes to history, which makes the discussions so interesting! (That includes you amigos!)

You know it is possible that Plato did "embellish" the tale of Atlantis, as Plutarch accused him. Here are the relevant bits from the life of Solon (the man Plato used as his source for the story of Atlantis)

His first voyage was for Egypt, and he lived, as he himself says-

"Near Nilus' mouth, by fair Canopus' shore," and spent some time in
study with Psenophis of Heliopolis, and Sonchis the Saite, the most
learned of all the priests; from whom, as Plato says, getting knowledge
of the Atlantic story, he put it into a poem, and proposed to bring
it to the knowledge of the Greeks.

and

Now Solon, having begun the great work in verse, the history or fable
of the Atlantic Island, which he had learned from the wise men in
Sais, and thought convenient for the Athenians to know, abandoned
it; not, as Plato says, by reason of want of time, but because of
his age, and being discouraged at the greatness of the task; for that
he had leisure enough, such verses testify, as-

"Each day grow older, and learn something new;" and again-

"But now the Powers, of Beauty, Song, and Wine,
Which are most men's delights, are also mine." Plato, willing to improve
the story of the Atlantic Island, as if it were a fair estate that
wanted an heir and came with some title to him, formed, indeed, stately
entrances, noble enclosures, large courts, such as never yet introduced
any story, fable, or poetic fiction; but, beginning it late, ended
his life before his work; and the reader's regret for the unfinished
part is the greater, as the satisfaction he takes in that which is
complete is extraordinary. For as the city of Athens left only the
temple of Jupiter Olympius unfinished, so Plato, amongst all his excellent
works, left this only piece about the Atlantic Island imperfect.

Of course it might simply be that Plutarch found the descriptions to be un-believable, having such incredible details as springs of both cold and hot water piped through the city - something not matched in his own day. After all many in his own time doubted that Troy of Homer existed too! (History seems to become embellished into legend and then metamorphoses into myth when enough time has passed.)

We so often hear from the skeptics how "Plato is the only ancient source for the tale of Atlantis" but this is also quite false, as we can show quite easily. As the historians will tell us, we know that the very first metal to ever be used by Man was gold (and the first metal mentioned in the Bible BTW) is it so far-fetched that an early civilization would have made use of it to ornament their cities? We also know that copper was the second metal used, and that the first use of copper is NOT known - just a few short years ago the historians had to adjust their timelines when the famous "Iceman" - the frozen man found in the Alps, was discovered carrying a copper axe - over 1000 years before they were "supposed" to have begun using it. The traces of elements found in Iceman's hair indicated that he has been active in smelting the copper too, not simply hammering natural nuggets into useful forms.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, you have made my day (and it was not a great day until now!) so I hope that you also will have a great day, and many more to follow.
your swollen-headed-treasure-hunting pal,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Salvor6]

Hello Oroblanco, I respect your right to disagree. I read all your posts on the Montazuma Tomb thread and I was impressed. There is a feature out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean called the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. This has been there for millions of years. There is no way a continent or island could have sunk there. Also don't forget; Brazil was part of the African continent before it broke away from the supercontinent Pangea. Therefore rocks and minerals found on the W. coast of Africa are similar to those found in Brazil.
Edgar Cayce was one of the crackpots I refered to. He also believed the earth was hollow!

 

[MonkeyBoy]

There was just a another show on the History Channel about this.. within the last couple of weeks.. I Tivo'ed it for my 10 and 6 year olds.. in a nutshell.. they say they found it.. it was destroyed by an eruption.. they have a city center that generally fits the known descriptions.. including the advanced building methods of the time, a good 1000 years ahead of anything else.. and have supporting digs on the island of Crete.. the port, the buildings andeven the "silver walls" were all there.. the silver walls were due to the high mica content of the local stone if I remember correctly.. plus they had tons of other advancements... indoor hot and cold plumber.. a city sewer system etc... there were a lot of things that fit the description very well...

MonkeyBoy