the everything site ...?

[the blindbowman]

bb,

Nothing new here. You came with a wild pipe dream (pun intended) and went to great lengths to convince everyone, including yourself, that there was something of substance in your "visions". You have claimed to be so many different things, that we all need a dance card to attempt keeping it straight.

Your latest crazy talk is another laugh a minute. Rather than just leaving the Forum, you have decided it might be more dramatic if you get banned. Insulting the moderators would be taking it out of your control, which seems to be the only way you can make a lasting decision in your life.

It's the basic mantra of the drug addict. I was doing fine, but they were against me. It's the man's fault, not mine. There was nothing I could do. Damn shame, because you could add a lot to this Forum, if you would just stop trying to impress us all with your supernatural abilities. We all suspect you are special, but you have your doubts. You know there is no way your posts are going to convince us, so there is only one person left for you to convince.

If possible, you might try focussing your talents on one (1) topic at a time. You have been all over the board so far, and that has left huge holes in all of your stories. Unfortunately, you have picked a forum that has thousands of knowledgeable members. Any topic that relates to a treasure in the known world, has a number of people who have been researching it for years. Not only are they experts in that particular subject, but they are probably far superior to folks like us. That would be why you find your stories being constantly picked apart by facts.

You appear to be gathering all of your facts from the Internet. What you should be learning from your experiences here, is that the Internet is the tool.........not the mechanic. You are trying much too hard.

Take care,

Joe

so just because the topic dose not fit your opioion its not worthy, thats CJ for ya ...lol


what if i told you i can out right prove the people waltz told Dick homles he killed ,he not only killed those people but he killed each of them in just the way he said he did ...and that this all took place in one area ....

 

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[the blindbowman]

i know why waltz shot the prospector ... you most likely will never figer it out ...lol

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

What was the prospectors name?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Gossamer]

Hmmm... from my understanding it has long been thought that Waltz was guilty of at least one death, whether it was murder, only Waltz and his victim would know?

I have done a little research... and please all of you correct me if I'm wrong. I like the story of it, but I'm more interested in finding caves/caverns and history, If I stumble across gold, well... hot damn. I love the research, my docu. is on target (I hope)

Was the "Dutchman" really just an invention of the early Arizonians to spread interest and commerce to the Valley? If that is true, what a job they did.
Waltz was not 'Dutch" was he? I cannot believe that old guy didn't just share 'something' with anyone? I know about the woman that was with him when he died, and her subsequent unsucceseful explorations.

Now to the pink elephant standing in the room...

BB... the info namely your claim that you 'know' things should probably go to PM, as you have nothing to 'share' with the forum.

so just because the topic dose not fit your opioion its not worthy, thats CJ for ya ...lol

this latest rant/tantrum came as I presented info about a possible effect that weather had on ancient culture.

BB: You posted -->
their bearing and elevation would have changed from where we see them today ...
is any of this makeing sence to any of you ...?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of course, it is basic, keep it up, more. It is also why our present weather cycle / pattern is changing, very little to do with man..
Don Jose de La Mancha

I wrote: BB thank you for your interest and I think your theory is one that is often referred to as precession. If I'm reading it right. The Rhumb line would not have been an efficient way in which ancients would use, its a loxodrome and not a true circle so the Phoenician sailors would have used the easiest, shortest and lots of observation of current flow and true star observation. They had thousands of years of observation. With Priestly devotion of star charting.
My understanding is that there is evidence that the earth has rotated and why true north and magnetic north aren't the same.
But my interest in the 33rd latitude goes into several subcultures and ancient maritime legend. Secret Society... part of what I wrote

I have no doubt about the mystical stuff, I don't use things like that.. the training was fun, but I would rather read and walk it.

You had added some interesting things, but you pulled them... that caused an unneccesary gaping wound in the conversation, then you are rude to Oro, (that pissed me off).

Now we have you acting like an idiot, it WAS entertaining, it no longer is. You need to start your own log and keep your own dialog between yourself and the wall. You are a disruption, and as I realized since joining, there are some really interesting people and they share ideas and bat them back and forth.

Springfield, while I'm not being "played", obviously you have way more info on this play ground than I do.

BB, I don't know what hurt you so much, but no one has been unkind or rude to you. But since you live in your head, you should take it to PM. Or not at all.

Janiece

 

[Cubfan64]

Janiece (Gossamer) said:

Hmmm... from my understanding it has long been thought that Waltz was guilty of at least one death, whether it was murder, only Waltz and his victim would know?

I have done a little research... and please all of you correct me if I'm wrong. I like the story of it, but I'm more interested in finding caves/caverns and history, If I stumble across gold, well... hot damn. I love the research, my docu. is on target (I hope)

Was the "Dutchman" really just an invention of the early Arizonians to spread interest and commerce to the Valley? If that is true, what a job they did.
Waltz was not 'Dutch" was he? I cannot believe that old guy didn't just share 'something' with anyone? I know about the woman that was with him when he died, and her subsequent unsucceseful explorations.

I still consider myself a newbie to the whole LDM legend/history, but I'll toss some of what I know out there in response to your comments/questions. There are others here who know the history better than I do and I hope they'll join in.

There is no absolute proof I'm aware of that Waltz killed anyone. There ARE however stories of him possibly killing his "partner" Jacob Weisner/Weiser/Wisner (etc... depending on the stories - and that is IF he ever truly did have a partner which historically I think has also never truly been proven). There's a story of him killing his nephew at one point when his nephew wanted to file a claim on the mine but Waltz didn't (once again, no historical verification that he had a nephew or that his nephew came over from Germany to help him and died) - I believe there is a story out there of a LDM hunter finding skeletal remains many years ago with a chain around it's neck in the same manner as the Waltz/nephew killing was told - but again, is it the chicken before the egg or vice versa? There are stories surrounding the finding of the mine (or the "coming back to the mine" - again depending on the storyteller) and he and his partner killing what they thought were 2 indians working it who turned out to be Mexicans who had previously worked the mine for the Peralta family. There's also a story of him killing a prospector on the way back from the mine on one of his trips - apparently this is the one being referred to here. Not sure if there are more killing stories or not. The man has been described as being educated and polite to morose and a hermit to a gambler and drunk - sometimes all in the same breath . There ARE historical facts out there to study and try to track down - I actually enjoy doing that myself when I can find the time. There are a surprisingly large number of trails to track down in reference to the LDM even out here in the NH/MA area!

Waltz was German, not Dutch. The "dutchman" reference (I personally believe) comes from Germany being known as Deutschland and German being Deutsch. My guess is that early on in history as Germans came over to the states, it was confusing for non-Germans and they just heard what they believed they heard and called them Dutch.

Again, what Waltz shared and who he shared it with is all a matter of who's stories you believe. The majority of the hints and clues that he supposedly shared firsthand come from the woman (Julia/Helena Thomas) and her adopted son (Rheiney Petrasch) who knew him while he lived in Phoenix and were arguably the closest thing he had to a family. He supposedly shared a number of clues and hints with them before he got sick and passed away, but (again my personal opinion) during most of that time they were under the impression that he was going to lead them personally to the site at some point within the coming year. I don't think they paid nearly as much attention to what he said as what they should have due to that - also keep in mind that neither of them knew the mountains AT ALL and likely couldn't find their way anyplace except where a car could get to. There's also the story that he passed on information to someone named Dick Holmes who happened to be present at Waltz's bedside when he died (Julia was on her way to the Dr. and I believe Rheiney may have been drunk). Holmes and his son spent MANY years searching the mountains with "secret" information that supposedly came directly from Waltz's mouth - problem is neither of them found anything either, and considering Waltz's illness and fever, it's hard to say whether anything Waltz said was true or just the babblings of a fevered old man about to die.

Was the LDM and Waltz just a story made up as a business venture to bring people and $ to the area? Personally I don't think so. There's enough historical evidence to pretty well believe that Waltz indeed had a rich source of gold - where it actually came from though is another matter. I WILL definitely say that the "legend" of Waltz and the LDM IS DEFINITELY something that a businessperson looking out for the interests of the area (tourism, merchandise, etc...) would certainly want to NOT ever be found in this day and age though. In the end, I suspect one of three things will happen:

1) The source of Waltz's gold will never be discovered
2) The source of Waltz's gold will be found and removed secretly - nobody but the finders will ever know
3) The source of Waltz's gold will be found and will be too difficult to remove secretly and will remain where it is.

Either way, other than a few "insiders," I don't think the general public will EVER hear about it if it's found.

I know you're more interested in caves, caverns, skeletal remains, artifacts and history than you are the LDM legend, but if you're ever interested enough in the history of it, see if you can get your hands on a copy of Thomas Glover's book "The Golden Dream." From strictly a research/historical aspect, it's probably the best details you'll ever find about the legend.

Incidently, in October there will be a 2-3 day "Rendevouz" near Apache Junction where a whole "mess" of LDM hunters and historians get together to shoot the crap, argue, discuss, share ideas, eat food, look at photos, etc... since you live in the area, I think it's something you should really look at coming out for at least a short visit just to meet some of "us." I know at least a few folks who post here will attend and I can GUARANTEE that you'll meet at least a couple local "old timers" who will have a buttload of history to share with you on the area if you get them talking (doesn't even have to be related to the LDM). Thomas Glover was there last year as well as a couple other authors, but I'll let those who post here who will be there as well answer for themselves - I don't want to speak for anyone else

There - how's that for a sales pitch?

 

[cactusjumper]

Gossamer,

Paul has done a fine job of answering your questions.

Creating a place where new people to the Superstition legends could camp out for a weekend, and pick the brains of the old timers, was a primary reason for starting the Rendezvous. The event has grown every year, and the Don's Campground is the perfect setting.

If you can make it, you will find it well worth the effort. I usually have a small group chatting around my trailer, but there is a large Ramada which is used for the "camp" gathering. Everyone is welcome in my camp, and at the Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous. I believe there were around seventy people there last year.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Gossamer,

Paul has done a fine job of answering your questions.

Creating a place where new people to the Superstition legends could camp out for a weekend, and pick the brains of the old timers, was a primary reason for starting the Rendezvous. The event has grown every year, and the Don's Campground is the perfect setting.

If you can make it, you will find it well worth the effort. I usually have a small group chatting around my trailer, but there is a large Ramada which is used for the "camp" gathering. Everyone is welcome in my camp, and at the Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous. I believe there were around seventy people there last year.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks CJ - pretty soon I might even be able to stop calling myself a newbie I'm at the point where I feel comfortable talking LDM with the average person, but I still plan to pretty much keep my ears open and my mouth shut when I get around the folks at the Rendevouz!

Oh, and for what it's worth Gossamer, I believe there is a strict rule of leaving "differences" at the gate to the Don's Club Campground (not far from the Peralta Trailhead). Every now and then you can sense a little tension, friction or "coolness" in the air, but there's enough people with their heads screwed on right that if differences of opinion turned into arguments which turned into anything more, I believe no matter who the folks were, they would be ushered off the grounds and expected to resolve the issue before being allowed back on site.

I'm not AT ALL implying you might be in the middle of anything - I just wanted to let you know in case you had any hesitation about attending wondering whether it would turn into a "real life" war of words like sometimes goes on here

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Somehow, I think Gossamer could hold her own in any situation. The Rendezvous has turned into a well-oiled, fun, informative event. Carolyn has been at all three. Some of the strongest words spoken, came from my little lady, and everyone loves her.

Friendships have been made and renewed. Old wounds have been healed there. Sworn enemies have put down their (verbal) weapons. America......What a place!

Take care,

Joe

 

[Gossamer]

Thank you Paul!
And yes that would be a lot of fun to go to the campground and talk to the old timers and newbies (me).
Thank you for the info, it clarifies some things. I had read a book a while ago but didn't think it gave info that I needed... I threw it across the room and it resides behind my computer desk.
CJ, thank you... and yes I can hold my own... I find it very charming that so many gentlemen have looked out for me. Much more so here, than in my 'scholarly' group ever has. LOL!
I appreciate it.
Janiece

 

[Gossamer]

This is for all the rock hounds out there... check out this video on YouTube

at

If you have problems let me know.. I would be curious what you guys all think.
Janiece

 

[Old Dog]

I have always been a desert nut.
What a beautiful desert planet.

Thom

 

[cactusjumper]

Gossamer,

While not a rock person, I found the video fascinating. Many seem to be making premature judgements about the color manipulation, and the blue rocks. I imagine, given time, it will all come into focus.

Many thanks for the armchair trip to Mars.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Gossamer]

I found it interesting... I know that Nasa does color manipulation on many of the pics of distant stars, they say its to give more definition. It will be interesting when it all shakes out.
One thingI really thought was amazing was the 'rock art"...
Janiece

 

[Gossamer]

LMAO... could be or maybe KGC symbols... I could go for that.
Janiece

 

[the blindbowman]

Paul,

Somehow, I think Gossamer could hold her own in any situation. The Rendezvous has turned into a well-oiled, fun, informative event. Carolyn has been at all three. Some of the strongest words spoken, came from my little lady, and everyone loves her.

Friendships have been made and renewed. Old wounds have been healed there. Sworn enemies have put down their (verbal) weapons. America......What a place!

Take care,

Joe

we'll will ...

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

Somehow, I think Gossamer could hold her own in any situation. The Rendezvous has turned into a well-oiled, fun, informative event. Carolyn has been at all three. Some of the strongest words spoken, came from my little lady, and everyone loves her.

Friendships have been made and renewed. Old wounds have been healed there. Sworn enemies have put down their (verbal) weapons. America......What a place!

Take care,

Joe

we'll will ...

um..... what?

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Trying to understand the mind/words of a: Shaman; Witch; Shape Shifter; Skin Walker; Seer; Sage; Brother of Christ and Prophet, can only be done by someone who is all of those things. Any attempt to do so, without those qualifications, could make your head explode. In other words: Kids, don't attempt this at home! It could be hazardous to your health.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Gossamer]

BB... we'll will ... ??

splain' this please

Paul,
Trying to understand the mind/words of a: Shaman; Witch; Shape Shifter; Skin Walker; Seer; Sage; Brother of Christ and Prophet, can only be done by someone who is all of those things. Any attempt to do so, without those qualifications, could make your head explode. In other words: Kids, don't attempt this at home! It could be hazardous to your health.
Take care,
Joe

Janiece and for further 'illumination"
Reverend Janiece (not kidding) and I'm going for my Dr.Div.

 

[Old Dog]

BB,

You might turn on a fan and open the window.
The smoke is obviously to thick to see the keyboard.

 

[Cubfan64]

BB... we'll will ... ??

splain' this please

Paul,
Trying to understand the mind/words of a: Shaman; Witch; Shape Shifter; Skin Walker; Seer; Sage; Brother of Christ and Prophet, can only be done by someone who is all of those things. Any attempt to do so, without those qualifications, could make your head explode. In other words: Kids, don't attempt this at home! It could be hazardous to your health.
Take care,
Joe

Janiece and for further 'illumination"
Reverend Janiece (not kidding) and I'm going for my Dr.Div.

Shucks, now we're going to have watch our language :P

Seriously though, what religion do you minister in and are you specializing in anything in going for your DD? Is a DD much different than getting a Doctor of Theology degree?