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  1. #1

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
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    Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    One of the members commenting on another thread recently brought up the similarity and possible proximity of the mine Nino Cochise described as being operated by the Apache in Mexico they called Sno Tah Hay and Toyopa. It brings up a lot of possibilites, including the [I believe remote] possibility that the Sno Ta Hay in Mexico is one and the same as Toyopa and the Lost Adams.

    Anyone of a mind to discuss the nuances of the Nino Cochise tome and the Sno Ta Hay described there, and the identical one James Street wrote inside the back cover of his ledger at Ojo Caliente as described to him by Nana as being a relatively short distance away I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts.

    Gracias,
    Jack

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  3. #2
    Charter Member
    us
    Apr 2007
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    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Oki lil Oro marker HERE too!

  4. #3

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    1 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynangyl
    Oki lil Oro marker HERE too!
    Sorry for the mistake in positioning. I've asked the moderator to delete the other thread.

    You feel free to join right in Cynangyl. You and I might be the onliest ones discussing anything here.

    Jack

  5. #4

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    1 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    I'd begin by saying that while the Ojo Caliente/James Street/Nana Sno ta hay can't be specifically verified as having happened there's enough that is verifiable to give it a lot of strength.

    1] Official records do show James Street had the Post Store there during the right time period. Even the floor-plan and measurements are on public record. [Incidently and unrelated, his brother was also there intermittently as a contract blacksmith who made a circuit of New Mexico Army posts]

    2] Nana was also there during the same time period and plenty of official records verify the fact.

    The rest might be up for grabs, but those two facts aren't.

    Jack

  6. #5

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    1 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    What can be verified in official documents insofar as the Nino Cochise story?

    1] John Brewer and Ammon Tenney [of the Adams Diggings story El Paso Herald 1928] had vanished from the radar screens between 1885ish until the El Paso Herald coverage on the Adams story.

    2] No Adams aficianado had any idea Brewer was in Mexico 1885ish until 1912. However, after Nino Cochise involved the activities of the two in his story it became possible to verify the fact they'd been there. Official birth records in Mexico verify the births of children of each while they were there. Brewer's youngest son born in Mexico died in California in the late 1980s.

    Interestingly, Nino made no attempt to associate the John Brewer, Ammon Tenney, James Street and James Gray he knew in Mexico with the Adams Diggings story even though doing so would have probably resulted in a lot of book sales. But he made no mention of the connection at all.

    Similarly, Nino made no mention that Sno Ta Hay happened to be the mysterious word Street scribbled in the back of his ledger and has puzzled Adams searchers since. However, he does mention the meaning of the word Sno Ta Hay, "Just lying there".

    Jack


  7. #6
    Charter Member
    us
    Apr 2007
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    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by Highmountain
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynangyl
    Oki lil Oro marker HERE too!
    Sorry for the mistake in positioning. I've asked the moderator to delete the other thread.

    You feel free to join right in Cynangyl. You and I might be the onliest ones discussing anything here.

    Jack
    lol I am sure there will be others that are discussing things here as well but thanks for the welcome!

    There does seem to be a lot of similarities but why is it ya think that Nino did not mention any correlation? I know you have no way of knowing for sure or it would not have been puzzling people for so long but I am curious as to what your thoughts are on it.

  8. #7

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    1 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynangyl
    Quote Originally Posted by Highmountain
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynangyl
    Oki lil Oro marker HERE too!
    Sorry for the mistake in positioning. I've asked the moderator to delete the other thread.

    You feel free to join right in Cynangyl. You and I might be the onliest ones discussing anything here.

    Jack
    lol I am sure there will be others that are discussing things here as well but thanks for the welcome!

    There does seem to be a lot of similarities but why is it ya think that Nino did not mention any correlation? I know you have no way of knowing for sure or it would not have been puzzling people for so long but I am curious as to what your thoughts are on it.

    why is it ya think that Nino did not mention any correlation? I know you have no way of knowing for sure or it would not have been puzzling people for so long but I am curious as to what your thoughts are on it.

    Hi Cynangyl: My guess is Nino Cochise wasn't aware of the Dobie book, the Adams flap, the El Paso Herald stories. There'd have been no reason for Brewer [whom he described as the 'leader' of the Mormons down there and the financier of their ranches], Tenney, Gray, or Street to ever have mentioned anything about it in the context of their dealings with him down there.

    A huge percentage of the US population from 1928 until now never heard of Frank Dobie nor the Lost Adams Diggings. I suspect Nino Cochise numbered among them. It was decades after the Nino Cochise story became public that any connection existed between the Brewer et al in Mexico and the Brewer of the 1928 El Paso Herald.

    Until Nino's book nobody even had a clue Brewer was a Mormon with the possible exception of Mormons scattered around and his family.

    Just my own thinking on it.
    Jack

  9. #8
    Charter Member
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    Apr 2007
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    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    well that appears to be some sound reasoning Certainly makes for a very interesting study to see them next to each other and see what correlation there is between them all for sure! Thanks for sharing!

  10. #9
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
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    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    On another thread, Cactus Jumper questioned the truth in Nino's account of the Apache Nameless Ones. While I defended Nino there, the fact remains that The First Hundred Years of Nino Cochise was published in 1971, decades after most of the Lost Adams material was available to anyone interested. In fact, on page 236 of 100-NC, Nino mentions , "I got to musing over the tales spun around lost treasures of Apache gold and Yaqui silver here in the Sierra Madre." Coincidentally, Dobie's Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver first published in 1928, mentions Sno-Ta-Hay, Tayopa, Tenney and Brewer. I'm not yet in the camp of Nino disbelievers, but a skeptic could argue that Nino read Dobie and embellished his tale with information from AG&YS. On the other hand, one could just as easily argue that LAD details (Sno-Ta-Hay, Brewer, Tenney) were transposed from Mexico to New Mexico. The fact that Tenney and Brewer apparently can be placed in both venues doesn't clear the waters.

    I was surprised to read in 100-NC of the Apache Nameless Ones' utilitarian use for gold - mining, refining and using it for trade. No mention of 'Teardrops of Ussen', religious taboos and the general shunning of the metal that we so often hear from other Apache survivors of the period. The Eve Ball interviews come to mind. This is another red flag for me. All LAD researchers know that the Apaches were supposedly adamantly opposed to gold mining and scorned prospectors, miners, etc. If instead they had a use for gold, ala Nino's report, then one would expect that they would also have mined the LAD deposit for their own benefit.

    This presents a dilemma. One possibility is that 100-NC may be substantially fabricated, embellishing the Apache Nameless Ones' tale with a secret gold mine to arouse more interest in the story. Another possibility is that Sno-Ta-Hay was indeed located in the Sierra Madre and much of the LAD information we've been privvy to for generations is disinformation. Of course, the term 'Sno-Ta-Hay' might not be a place name as we assume, but solely a descriptive term for a rich placer deposit ("Just lying there"), which then would give a third possibility - there are two rich gold mines to consider, one in New Mexico and the other in the Sierra Madre. Again, the appearance of Tenney and Brewer, the Mormons, in both tales is a mind-addler.

    "The gods were smiling when you were born. Now they're laughing."​ Chinese fortune cookie

  11. #10
    Charter Member
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    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    I would have to agree that it is certainly a mind addler! Just trying to figure out what exactly actually was said when is enough to make ya dizzy from the sounds of it.

  12. #11

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    1 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield
    On another thread, Cactus Jumper questioned the truth in Nino's account of the Apache Nameless Ones. While I defended Nino there, the fact remains that The First Hundred Years of Nino Cochise was published in 1971, decades after most of the Lost Adams material was available to anyone interested. In fact, on page 236 of 100-NC, Nino mentions , "I got to musing over the tales spun around lost treasures of Apache gold and Yaqui silver here in the Sierra Madre." Coincidentally, Dobie's Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver first published in 1928, mentions Sno-Ta-Hay, Tayopa, Tenney and Brewer. I'm not yet in the camp of Nino disbelievers, but a skeptic could argue that Nino read Dobie and embellished his tale with information from AG&YS. On the other hand, one could just as easily argue that LAD details (Sno-Ta-Hay, Brewer, Tenney) were transposed from Mexico to New Mexico. The fact that Tenney and Brewer apparently can be placed in both venues doesn't clear the waters.

    I was surprised to read in 100-NC of the Apache Nameless Ones' utilitarian use for gold - mining, refining and using it for trade. No mention of 'Teardrops of Ussen', religious taboos and the general shunning of the metal that we so often hear from other Apache survivors of the period. The Eve Ball interviews come to mind. This is another red flag for me. All LAD researchers know that the Apaches were supposedly adamantly opposed to gold mining and scorned prospectors, miners, etc. If instead they had a use for gold, ala Nino's report, then one would expect that they would also have mined the LAD deposit for their own benefit.

    This presents a dilemma. One possibility is that 100-NC may be substantially fabricated, embellishing the Apache Nameless Ones' tale with a secret gold mine to arouse more interest in the story. Another possibility is that Sno-Ta-Hay was indeed located in the Sierra Madre and much of the LAD information we've been privvy to for generations is disinformation. Of course, the term 'Sno-Ta-Hay' might not be a place name as we assume, but solely a descriptive term for a rich placer deposit ("Just lying there"), which then would give a third possibility - there are two rich gold mines to consider, one in New Mexico and the other in the Sierra Madre. Again, the appearance of Tenney and Brewer, the Mormons, in both tales is a mind-addler.

    Springfield: Thanks for pointing out my error insofar as Nino mentioning LAD. If I ever noticed it previously I'd long forgotten it.

    If the Nino tale is false it would definitely be interesting to know how he came into the info that Brewer et al were in Mexico during that time. Since that part is verified by official records and so far as I know isn't mentioned anywhere else in the thousands of LAD stories printed during the 19th and 20th Centuries it was a fairly obscure item for him to be aware of if he was never personally acquainted with them.

    Brewer and Tenney fled Mexico in 1912 with all the other Mormons who ended up in El Paso. In his 1928 interviews in the El Paso Herald it would have been old news. I suppose a person might backtrack to see if any of those names showed up in news reports of 1912 - 1913 [one way Nino could have gotten the info maybe without knowing them] but it would be a tremendous job of work unless those archives have been digitized. They weren't during the '90s when I was chasing the 1928 stories.

    As for the Apache revulsion for gold, maybe it existed once, though I suspect it never did. There are enough mentions of them having used it for all manner of trading from other sources as to create a lot of doubt in my mind as to whether it's a piece of myth. No way of knowing [It might have been one of those 'some-do-some-don't' kinds of things, or it might have been something the pulp novels dreamed up. But hmmm trying now to remember the name of the scout who wrote his memoirs who was out-and-about all over AZ and NM from Ewell onward --- Criswell, maybe? Describes being at Pinos Altos and Apache hanging around camp trying to steal anything that wasn't nailed down including gold.

    If it was ever true there's certainly no residue of it in tribal traditions today among the Mescalero and probably not among any other tribal group. Which might say a lot because there's plenty of residue concerning other tribal taboos surviving, if not in practice, then in something of a shudder when they violate them.

    If instead they had a use for gold, ala Nino's report, then one would expect that they would also have mined the LAD deposit for their own benefit.

    We don't have any way of knowing they didn't.

    On another thread, Cactus Jumper questioned the truth in Nino's account of the Apache Nameless Ones.

    Arizonians have always loathed Nino and done everything they could to discredit him. I suspect it's because, by bringing Brewer into the picture it absolutely robs Arizona of the Lost Adams Diggings because of his description as the location relates to the Rio Grande. One of your posts quoting him provides an example of the desparation Arizonians feel to sweep Nino out of the legend:

    "The Apache have rebuked him", [paraphrased]. For beginners, it ain't as though the Apache are a single voice. They're individuals who have individual opinions. So far as I've ever heard they've never been polled on their opinion concerning the authenticity of Nino Cochise. Typical attempt at generalization to try to bluff home a point along with a rubber-stamping of the kind of stereotyping most ethnic groups, including Native Americans, abhor and despise.

    Meaningless twaddle of the sort that caused me to put him on IGNORE and keep him there.

    Jack

  13. #12

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    1 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Don Jose de La Mancha where are you?

    This has all been focused on the Adams thus far. But on the Toyopa thread you hinted you had some ideas about the connection between Nino's account of the Sno ta hay location and Toyopa mine.

    Share your thoughts?

    Jack

  14. #13
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,272
    502 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Springfield,

    I posted this earlier, but it went to live with Jesus. Since there was no message from Jeff, I assume I just boned it. Here it is again:

    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [" Cochise had no other sons than Naiche and Taza. This is the evidence of Christian Naiche, Amelia Naiche, Lena Morgan, and Eugene Chihuahua," Eve wrote. Jasper Kanseah and Ace Daklugie told Eve the same thing.

    That didn't prevent the more enterprising from inventing sons. One of the most convincing pretenders (to whites, anyway) was a man calling himself Niņo Cochise. He published two conflicting versions of his story, both challenged by Apaches and historians. In a magazine article, he alleged that in 1873, Cochise's oldest son, Taza, married and in 1874 had a son, Niņo, in the Cochise Stronghold of Arizona Territory. After Taza died, his wife and son fled to Mexico, where they remained unknown and uncounted by reservation agents. They returned to the United States when Niņo was twelve, and he attended Carlisle Indian School, Haskell Institute, and the University of Washington, where he majored in journalism and English. He also claimed to have toured Europe with Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show and served with the French Air Force. By 1957, Niņo was a writer living near Hollywood in the summer and southern Arizona in the winter.' In his book he spun an entertaining tale of his life in the wild and told of going to Hollywood in the 1920s, where he became a movie set extra. He opened a western museum in Phoenix briefly, worked for defense contractors during ' World War II, and flew for a crop duster.

    In 1967 Pat Wagner, editor of True West, asked Eve to critique an article that carried no byline. Eve quickly identified it as that of Niņo Cochise. Initially, she sympathized with the man but her attitude soon changed.

    "Now, this man has done a great deal of reading, and has apparently not questioned what he found. If he were half-Apache, he most certainly would not accept all this. The San Carlos Reservation found no record of his having been reared there.

    "I have had much sympathy for this man. He has a deep and sincere interest in and sympathy for the Apaches. And there is a possibility--rather remote, I think, after reading this--that his claim to being the descendant of Taza is true. But the Naiches have rejected him and have no hesitancy in saying that he is an impostor.... All the older Apaches who knew Taza say he had no children."

    "When Pat Wagner sent me a manuscript of a book, writer unidentified, I told her immediately that it was faked and exactly where the writer got his material.... In it were statements lifted literally from articles I had published in True West, etc."

    Besides his "borrowing" of others' work, Niņo's own observations were riddled with errors. He referred to blood brothers, an alien concept to Apaches. He also spoke of clans; Western Apaches had clans but Chiricahuas did not. He was ignorant of the unique Apache moccasin with its turned-up toe and unaware that they never smoked pipes or used sign language. Despite flaws that would have been glaring to historians like Eve and Dan Thrapp, the story found its way into print.

    "Though I know it is too trivial for anyone's notice, I can't help being annoyed by the ridiculous claims of this so-called Niņo Cochise. He may believe his story, but no Apache does. And I'm more annoyed at Western Publications for being took. I do understand that once having won recognition for the Lehmann story, which the Comanches and Kiowas say is untrue, that they naturally wish to affect another startling discovery."

    The respected University of Oklahoma Press would have been snookered without the intervention of historian Dan Thrapp.

    "First I want to congratulate [you] upon the attempt to prevent this press from being the victim of what I consider a monumental fraud," Eve wrote Thrapp.

    "This Niņo, as you know, has put one over on many people, including NBC, who uses him as adviser in the 'High Chaparral' series. He doesn't even know Apache customs...

    "When I think that the High Brass rejected Betzinez' book and James Kaywaykla's (which Arizona U. is to publish for me) and fell for this junk, I am tempted to say that this impostor should be permitted! But there are far too many errors in history without this."

    Eve and Dan Thrapp weren't the only historians to take a skeptical view of Niņo: Angie Debo wrote that she wouldn't touch the manuscript with a ten-foot pole.

    Niņo found a publisher and the book appeared in 1971 to enthusiastic reviews that repeated his account without questioning its credibility. Only the New York Review of Books paused for a moment of skepticism.]

    From "Apache Voices" by, Sherry Robinson and Eve Ball.

    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are some well known and respected historians speaking in the above quotes. Their information came from the Apache who knew and lived that turbulent history.

    "Arizonians have always loathed Nino and done everything they could to discredit him."

    Being a writer of historical fiction, I am not sure where Jack gets the credentials to denigrate "Arizonians" in such a broad sweeping statement of fictional "facts". Were the Apache mentioned above, also biased against Nino?

    IMHO, the key to this little story is in reliable source material. No doubt there are better sources than those I have quoted.

    One last point about " the Apache revulsion for gold": It was the digging from Mother Earth that they found revolting, not the metal itself. Others may have another opinion, but I will stick with that until shown the error of my ways.

    Take care,

    Joe

  15. #14
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,488
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    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper

    There are some well known and respected historians speaking in the above quotes. Their information came from the Apache who knew and lived that turbulent history.

    "Arizonians have always loathed Nino and done everything they could to discredit him."

    Being a writer of historical fiction, I am not sure where Jack gets the credentials to denigrate "Arizonians" in such a broad sweeping statement of fictional "facts". Were the Apache mentioned above, also biased against Nino?

    IMHO, the key to this little story is in reliable source material. No doubt there are better sources than those I have quoted.

    One last point about " the Apache revulsion for gold": It was the digging from Mother Earth that they found revolting, not the metal itself. Others may have another opinion, but I will stick with that until shown the error of my ways.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Points acknowledged Joe. You've obviously done your homework regarding the Apaches, and you've presented some strong opinions against Nino Cochise and his publication.

    Every published writer has an axe to grind and a point of view to foster when he releases material to the public. The physical sciences and the accepted theories-de-jour regarding geology, biology, astronomy, mathematics, et al at least have a solid bandwagon to hitch a ride on. The 'respected' ride side by side until the theory-de-jour changes due to some high tech breakthrough, then they merely change wagons and ride on. Not so with history, anthropology, archaeology and other more subjective studies. Being a skeptic myself (one who believes all things are possible), I generally sense a red flag when the 'respected authorities' speak, especially in lockstep, on historic arguements. Remember the WMD? That was only five years ago, we all saw what happened and yet there is and probably always will be a major difference of opinion among Americans regarding that issue.

    Apache history is a tough nut. For one thing, as someone mentioned somewhere above, there is not and never has been a unified Apache voice or culture. These guys were clannish, isolated and mobile for the most part. They interacted with other more closely-affiliated Apache groups in their range but shunned others. They also interacted with other entirely different NA groups in the southwest and in Mexico. Their customs, tools, art, weapons, etc. were similar to other tribes', but unique to themselves in some cases. While it is true that many Apaches allied with other bands following the white invasion of the southwest, there wasn't necessarily a well-organized effort with their resistance either. Most quietly went to the reservations and accepted their fate.

    There seem to be many differences of opinion among Apaches about many if not all events in their history. Some were present at certain events, most were not. Some got second-hand information, some third. Some accounts are sullied due to personal animosities, some were embellished due to loyalties. The white interviewers, even those looking for the 'truth', were suseptible to the same errors of memory, language, motivation as those who had preconceived opinions. The Apaches themselves were apt to tell the whites what they wanted to hear or what enhanced their personal image. Eve Ball's books are among my favorites, but I imagine there are embellishments and inaccuracies in them too. Some Apaches (just like any other humans) delighted in lying outright just for the hell of it. Geronimo is perhaps the prime example.

    Bottom line - the 'respected historians' are apt to discredit ideas and opinions that conflict with the 'histories' that earned them their respect in the first place. Human nature and entirely expected behavior. Remember one thing - the truth of any issue does not rest with accepted opinion, majority views or common knowledge. Things are seldom as they seem. I'm not in a position to say Nino's account is accurate or hogwash and I don't revere the 'respected' authorities out of hand.

    Final point: 'reliable source material' is a slippery slope based on faith alone. A truth-seeker has the deck stacked against him and is unlikely to reach his goal. We therefore generally settle for what fits our preferences - it comforts our frustrations.



    "The gods were smiling when you were born. Now they're laughing."​ Chinese fortune cookie

  16. #15
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    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield
    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper

    There are some well known and respected historians speaking in the above quotes. Their information came from the Apache who knew and lived that turbulent history.

    "Arizonians have always loathed Nino and done everything they could to discredit him."

    Being a writer of historical fiction, I am not sure where Jack gets the credentials to denigrate "Arizonians" in such a broad sweeping statement of fictional "facts". Were the Apache mentioned above, also biased against Nino?

    IMHO, the key to this little story is in reliable source material. No doubt there are better sources than those I have quoted.

    One last point about " the Apache revulsion for gold": It was the digging from Mother Earth that they found revolting, not the metal itself. Others may have another opinion, but I will stick with that until shown the error of my ways.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Points acknowledged Joe. You've obviously done your homework regarding the Apaches, and you've presented some strong opinions against Nino Cochise and his publication.

    Every published writer has an axe to grind and a point of view to foster when he releases material to the public. The physical sciences and the accepted theories-de-jour regarding geology, biology, astronomy, mathematics, et al at least have a solid bandwagon to hitch a ride on. The 'respected' ride side by side until the theory-de-jour changes due to some high tech breakthrough, then they merely change wagons and ride on. Not so with history, anthropology, archaeology and other more subjective studies. Being a skeptic myself (one who believes all things are possible), I generally sense a red flag when the 'respected authorities' speak, especially in lockstep, on historic arguements. Remember the WMD? That was only five years ago, we all saw what happened and yet there is and probably always will be a major difference of opinion among Americans regarding that issue.

    Apache history is a tough nut. For one thing, as someone mentioned somewhere above, there is not and never has been a unified Apache voice or culture. These guys were clannish, isolated and mobile for the most part. They interacted with other more closely-affiliated Apache groups in their range but shunned others. They also interacted with other entirely different NA groups in the southwest and in Mexico. Their customs, tools, art, weapons, etc. were similar to other tribes', but unique to themselves in some cases. While it is true that many Apaches allied with other bands following the white invasion of the southwest, there wasn't necessarily a well-organized effort with their resistance either. Most quietly went to the reservations and accepted their fate.

    There seem to be many differences of opinion among Apaches about many if not all events in their history. Some were present at certain events, most were not. Some got second-hand information, some third. Some accounts are sullied due to personal animosities, some were embellished due to loyalties. The white interviewers, even those looking for the 'truth', were suseptible to the same errors of memory, language, motivation as those who had preconceived opinions. The Apaches themselves were apt to tell the whites what they wanted to hear or what enhanced their personal image. Eve Ball's books are among my favorites, but I imagine there are embellishments and inaccuracies in them too. Some Apaches (just like any other humans) delighted in lying outright just for the hell of it. Geronimo is perhaps the prime example.

    Bottom line - the 'respected historians' are apt to discredit ideas and opinions that conflict with the 'histories' that earned them their respect in the first place. Human nature and entirely expected behavior. Remember one thing - the truth of any issue does not rest with accepted opinion, majority views or common knowledge. Things are seldom as they seem. I'm not in a position to say Nino's account is accurate or hogwash and I don't revere the 'respected' authorities out of hand.

    Final point: 'reliable source material' is a slippery slope based on faith alone. A truth-seeker has the deck stacked against him and is unlikely to reach his goal. We therefore generally settle for what fits our preferences - it comforts our frustrations.
    Springfield - I just printed out what you wrote above. It's something I will definitely refer to now and again to put everything into perspective for me as I spend time researching things - especially historical events and "treasure" related stories and legends.

    Your statements above are very impressive and have a real air of common sense associated with them as well. If you don't mind me asking - what is your background and profession?
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  17. #16

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    1 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield

    Every published writer has an axe to grind and a point of view to foster when he releases material to the public. The physical sciences and the accepted theories-de-jour regarding geology, biology, astronomy, mathematics, et al at least have a solid bandwagon to hitch a ride on. The 'respected' ride side by side until the theory-de-jour changes due to some high tech breakthrough, then they merely change wagons and ride on. Not so with history, anthropology, archaeology and other more subjective studies. Being a skeptic myself (one who believes all things are possible), I generally sense a red flag when the 'respected authorities' speak, especially in lockstep, on historic arguements. Remember the WMD? That was only five years ago, we all saw what happened and yet there is and probably always will be a major difference of opinion among Americans regarding that issue.

    Apache history is a tough nut. For one thing, as someone mentioned somewhere above, there is not and never has been a unified Apache voice or culture. These guys were clannish, isolated and mobile for the most part. They interacted with other more closely-affiliated Apache groups in their range but shunned others. They also interacted with other entirely different NA groups in the southwest and in Mexico. Their customs, tools, art, weapons, etc. were similar to other tribes', but unique to themselves in some cases. While it is true that many Apaches allied with other bands following the white invasion of the southwest, there wasn't necessarily a well-organized effort with their resistance either. Most quietly went to the reservations and accepted their fate.

    There seem to be many differences of opinion among Apaches about many if not all events in their history. Some were present at certain events, most were not. Some got second-hand information, some third. Some accounts are sullied due to personal animosities, some were embellished due to loyalties. The white interviewers, even those looking for the 'truth', were suseptible to the same errors of memory, language, motivation as those who had preconceived opinions. The Apaches themselves were apt to tell the whites what they wanted to hear or what enhanced their personal image. Eve Ball's books are among my favorites, but I imagine there are embellishments and inaccuracies in them too. Some Apaches (just like any other humans) delighted in lying outright just for the hell of it. Geronimo is perhaps the prime example.

    Bottom line - the 'respected historians' are apt to discredit ideas and opinions that conflict with the 'histories' that earned them their respect in the first place. Human nature and entirely expected behavior. Remember one thing - the truth of any issue does not rest with accepted opinion, majority views or common knowledge. Things are seldom as they seem. I'm not in a position to say Nino's account is accurate or hogwash and I don't revere the 'respected' authorities out of hand.

    Final point: 'reliable source material' is a slippery slope based on faith alone. A truth-seeker has the deck stacked against him and is unlikely to reach his goal. We therefore generally settle for what fits our preferences - it comforts our frustrations.


    Hi Springfield. Thanks for the post. You've made a lot of good points and summed up what amounts to a maze of conflicting factoids compounded by lesser mazes of other conflicting factoids coming from too many directions and sources to number.

    It renders any sort of focused examination or dialogue of any particular facet cumbersome, maybe impossible in a public forum. The snake insists on constantly re-examining its own tail, obstructed in forward movement by re-introducing the basic issue of whether the underlying source is true or false.

    My hope in this thread was to circum-navigate that problem by treating the Nino Cochise account [whether true or false] as true for the purposes of discussion of the implications of other matters he described. From the TH perspective these mainly are about gold, lost gold mines, legends of lost gold mines and the inevitable involvement of his band of Apache and their traditions [as he described them] as they relate to those matters.

    There's no way anyone is likely to 'prove' or 'disprove' whether what he said is actually true without physical evidence on the ground somewhere. But if he was telling the truth there's also no means of discussing the details he spoke of without approaching it as though it's true and worth the effort of examining carefully.

    For instance, [assuming he was telling the truth about the meaning of Sno ta hay, 'just lying there'] the physical and geological implications of that meaning.

    Such a discussion doesn't rely on the 'reputations', opinions, even the expertise of the people doing the discussing. It relies on the ability to free the mind of pre-conceptions and concrete opinion enough to assume we might be wrong and consider the possibilities of what it might mean if we are.

    Gracias,
    Jack




  18. #17
    us
    Mar 2007
    southwest colorado
    266
    4 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Great thread,
    Without a dought the Nino Cochise book has more holes than good swiss cheese. But my big question is how did he know about Brewer,Tenney, Street and Gray?. After looking a little further into the auther Kinney Griffith could this book be a big part of his own ghost writing. His book "Manhunter" about Micky Free was published in 1969 and talks alot obout Nino Cochise. Kinney had been a writer for many years and certainly had the knowhow and means to help write an entertaining work of historical fiction.
    Just some thoughts.
    Bill

  19. #18

    Mar 2004
    New Mexico
    616
    1 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill96
    Great thread,
    Without a dought the Nino Cochise book has more holes than good swiss cheese. But my big question is how did he know about Brewer,Tenney, Street and Gray?. After looking a little further into the auther Kinney Griffith could this book be a big part of his own ghost writing. His book "Manhunter" about Micky Free was published in 1969 and talks alot obout Nino Cochise. Kinney had been a writer for many years and certainly had the knowhow and means to help write an entertaining work of historical fiction.
    Just some thoughts.
    Bill
    Without a dought the Nino Cochise book has more holes than good swiss cheese.

    Bill: It might. Or it might be the real item. Certainly it's something we'll each have to decide for ourselves.

    But the object of discussion on this thread isn't whether it's true or false. That would be a valid discussion on another thread.

    The purpose here is to discuss what, assuming it's true, the Nino Cochise account means as it pertains to Toyopa, the Adams Diggings, and everything else he told of related to gold and mines. If there's not a sufficient amount of interest in transcending the 'truth or fiction' side of Nino to consider it in more detail it's probably preferable to have this thread simply wither and fall off the bottom of the page than to have it bogged down in the usual quicksand of assertion/counter-assertions expounding the virtues or assassinating the character of Nino Cochise and A. Kinney Griffith.

    I'd guess you'll have a lot of meaty replies if you begin a thread of the sort you want to discuss, whereas on this one it's merely a distraction destined to divert attention away from the central point of the thread.

    Gracias,
    Jack

  20. #19
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,193
    825 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    Good Morning Room: I was away on Tayopa business yesterday, so didn't post. I will list a few things that may throw a monkey wrench, or WD-40 into the pot, but just may be useful in the search for
    SNO-TA-HAI.

    A) There are / were many Apache living in Mexico, our surveyor is one.


    B) A large, old mining camp called "PINOS ALTOS" that lies some 40 -,50 miles north east of Tayopa., in Chih.


    C) I was told of the cave by a Apache. Well he IS part Apache, hehhe.


    D) On the last trip to Tayopa, which was cut short, I was told of two dry placers nearby . The man that told me this had a cofffee jar full of hand picked nuggets that he had gathered by visual search. We are setting up a small group to go there in the next few months.


    E) There are Mormon goups in the basic area, most notsbly at Cuatemoc Chih. Make wonderful Monterrey Jack cheese.


    F) The Apache in Mexico were Mauraders, killing and stealing all over north western Mexcio. They were at constant war with all of the other sierra tribes and the Spanish.


    G) The Yaqui drainage is north of Tayopa and located in country just as rough as the Mayo drainage. Another Grand Canyon competitor


    H) South of Tayopa there is a huge natural cave which was origonally accesed by rope from the roof. Later a tunnel was driven to the outside in order to bring in suppolies. It apparently was a Gold mine / mines.

    According to my Indian friends there are several houses constructed by the spanish still intact inside. There is a running stream of water which flows outside. Apparently when they left, they closed the tunnel with seven walls, it has since become known as the Mina de siete muras" "The mine of seven walls."

    One of them found it and is willing to take me back there whenever I wish. He found it and removed 3 walls before he became "spooked".


    I) To the west of Tayopa, at the foot of the Sierras in Sonora, is another canyon. The old goat skin map of the Guayajiros shows it as being the richest Gold placer in Sonora of that time - this map shows Tayopa also.


    I) I will post many othe things that could be, in a broad sense, data on SNO TA HAI, if it existed. Unfortuately, there are things that I cannot post just yet, since they are part of an ongoing series of projects.

    There are many excellelnt sites on the net on travesling old Mexico during this time.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  21. #20
    Charter Member
    us
    Apr 2007
    God's lap
    X-terra 70 ACE 250
    11,352
    8 times

    Re: Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

    links links!! lol You know me....the voracious reader! Glad to see you back my friend!

 

 
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