Have any markers lead to a treasure find?

[michaeljefrry]

laws are about the same as here in the states (i'm assuming)....but with the big difference that mexico has a really corrupted government... (20 dollars will get you out of trouble)... i had one of my cousins take my finds to the local museum and donate them since there's no way in this world i could bring those items with me here to the states.... there were a couple of questions asked at the museum, but no further investigation...oh and no financing yet....
i'm still working and i've already asked for the entire month of december off....so... i will have an entire month to continue my search...

 

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[michaeljefrry]

You bet! i will post as many pictures as possible this time!

 

[lamar]

Dear michaeljeffery;
You wrote:
"I see there's quiet a few people who don't believe there is a treasure at the end of the road....
Well let me tell you this.... if you don't beleve so, then why waste your precious time reading these posts and arguing with others who do believe?"

To answer this question I will state that I believe in FACTS and not fiction, and everything I've read thus far bears witness to my belief that there exists no authentic tresure signs, symbols or markings, by either the Spanish colonists or anyone else from the colonization period. I am only interested in facts, not fantasy or alternate histories. When someone attempts to involve the Jesuits in their own version of historical events then they had better be ready to back up those claims with some facts, because I am ready and willing to dipsute any such nonesense.

Also, strictly as an aside, the Rosicrucians and Opus Dei were both founded early in the last century, therefore they were not even in existence during the colonization of the new World.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[rangler]

[size=13pt].... if you don't beleve so, then why waste your precious time reading these posts and arguing with others who do believe?[/color[/size]]

Micheal asked a valid question which you side stepped rather adroitly..non the less evaded him..dont give us the crap you are compelled by wanting the truth...you dont..you want documented, footnoted, annotated truth, In the treasure hunter world it does not exist like that..THE truth is you just enjoy debating and challenging folks on here..to waste our time and resources, and to bolster your own ego..You simply regurgitate the cover story laid down by those old organizations like you could actually prove it was correct and you cant.You only know what they wanted you to know..and that is jack spit - when it comes to the world of treasure, gold and silver mining ect

Your reference of the archives as the mecca for your points, is a fallacy..if they wanted to hide the real activities or secret contracts it is NOT going to end up in written in plain english (spanish) for you to simply read ...by ITS NATURE IT IS SECRET. everyone see the silliness of academia as it relates to things that the powers at be, didnt what the world at large to know...you DONT file it in the Archives for everyone to see..
Academia brainwashes young skulls full of mush to put blinders on and recite the company line..NO FOOTNOTES -NO REALITY\
Throw commons sense out the window..deny logic and the ability to think for your self,,become a sponge of useless facts and distorted
history, then simply regurgitate it all back up to get the degree...I am just sick of trying to take a subject like treasure hunting with all of its embedded secrets which have to be in place BY ITS NATURE...or you dont have a secret..and thinking you can apply the scrutiny of public records and footnote for Gawds sake- to reveal State Secrets..it is foolish in its intent, and ridiculous in its delivery.

It is transparent that your agenda is showing...your position as a self appointed critic as well is neither wanted or very much tolerated beyond the First Amendment Right that you get by accident of birth. Not to mention the brave military men fighting for your right to do so..which is the only thing I support about you my friend..I disagree totally with you supersilly uber academic attitude, but I defend you right to be a pain in the ass here at this site.

I would wish however that you and few more of your homies would take hike and start your own site,, I checked and the domain name
Idontbelieveintreasure.com is open and available to you..got get it..then you can be with your like minded colleagues and tip toe thru the tulips of denying treasure,denying the Jesuits were mining engineers that the New World even existed because after all how can you prove it with footnote and urls? Have a nice time over there..we will check in on you when things are going smooth over here and we want some useless exercises in pseudo-debates with pseudo-intellectuals about whether the world is flat or not.. good-by good luck and happy trails to you............

I rest my case. All questions were rhetorical in nature and require NO reply from you Lamar, my friend. It is a mute point - you will never footnote yourself to treasure, or convince one treasure hunter to deny his hobby and give up because of what you say.. So you are accomplishing nothing..but exercising your fingers on the keyboard and impressing your girlfriend down at the malt shop with your geekiness. NO reply is necessary!
I hope you have found peace of mind at the Jesuit Order and May God save your soul. If you are an agent, then I hope you get a raise and a gold star for your valiant - albeit vain effort.. it is nothing but an exercise in futility for you...my friend.
\Over and OUT/
rangler
MSEE


" absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

 

[Old Dog]

A bumble bee in all actuality is a scientific oddity.
By design, it cannot by all the rules of physics fly.

We who study signs use the bumble as an inspiration,

You can tell the Bumble all day long... he can't fly
He will shrug and fly away.

we have nothing to prove to anyone other than ourselves.
And just like the bumble... we know we can.

 

[DesertRat]

"Actually, no one in their right mind would use rocks or trees to make treasure symbols or signs..."



In the desert and mountains...personal absolutes are like mirages...fleeting, fragile, and false.

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
To answer some rebuttals, I was also a member of the military establishment, however this should have absolutely no bearing on this topic or about who is defending my rights. I am quite capable of defending myself and my rights and I do not need another person to do so for me, thank you very much.

And as a matter of course, I DO feel the overwhelming urge to reply to a thread whenever I feel the bounds of decency and good taste have been overstepped. To accuse an innocent group of people of an act, or acts of, conspiracy is slanderous in nature and just plain wrong. I am not a member of, nor have I ever been a member, the Society of Jesus (the Jesuits) nor have I ever been a member of any other religious Order.

I simply feel the need to correct the record in order to allow the facts to shine forth. For example, I've read how the Knights Templars buried treasure in the new World. To make an assumption such as that would require extraordinary proof and that proof does not exist. Even to think that the Templars could arrive at the shores of the New World, when they could barely navigate the waters well enough to make shore in the Holy land, is simply absurd.

Likewise, to accuse the Roman Catholic church of all manner of conspiracies is a sin, when there exists not a single scrap of reputable evidence to support these accusations,and this shows an extreme lack of good taste and common decency. The truth of the matter is the Roman Catholic church greatly assisted the Ameir-Indians during the colonization period and if not for their almost constant intervention with the colonists, the Ameri-Indians of Mexico, Central and South America would almost assuredly have been exterminated to the man.

Yet now, simply because some bull story happens to fit in nicely with an alternate history of the settlement of the New World, members of the Roman Catholic church are being accused of theft of minerals and all other manner of illegal and illicit acts. These sorts of accusations harm the Catholic church and many people seem to delight in spreading around these fabrications at will, for the sole purpose of trying to get these accusations to fit into the alternate history of the colonization and settlement of the Americas.

So yes, threads such as these actually DO require a reply from me. Common sense? How about this approach to some old fashioned common sense? Why would a person, or a group of persons, carve markings into trees and rocks, knowing full and well that those very same markings would almost immediately attract attention? please bear in mind that manmade marks carved into rocks and trees remain pristine and fresh looking for a large number of years, therefore any person who happened to stumble across such a marking could discern that the marking was new.

This would, quite naturally, arouse suspicion and initiate a search. That those very symbols appeared fresh also would mean that the hiding of any cached valuables would also appear fresh, making recovery a simple proposition. This sort of logic does not require the brain of a rocket scientist, my friends.

In reality, I care not whether someone spends a lifetime imagining symbols out of shadows or attempting to will a vast treasure trove into existence where none exists, but when someone starts making up lies about innocent organizations, then I will respond.

In short, to answer the original question of this topic, the answer is no. There has never been a treasure consisting of anything other than bits and pieces of junk, recovered by following treasure signs. I rest my case.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
The old wives' tale that bumblebees are not supposed to fly is yet another grand example of a myth that was supposed to be a reality. Here is a direct quote from Wikipedia:
"André Sainte-Laguë (April 20, 1882 – January 18, 1950) was a French mathematician who was a pioneer in the area of graph theory. His research on seat allocation methods (published in 1910) led to one being named after him, the Sainte-Laguë method. Also named after him is the Sainte-Laguë Index for measuring the proportionality of an electoral outcome.

He is notable for his informal calculation demonstrating that a bumblebee could not fly, referred to in the introduction of 'Le Vol Des Insects' (Hermann and Cle, Paris, 1934) by the entomologist August Magnan. This casual calculation was based on a comparison between an aeroplane and a bee, and assumed that bees' wings were smooth and flat. He, and others, soon corrected this assumption but the story of the scientist who demonstrated that bee flight was impossible persists to this day[1]."

Obviously, the man followed a simplified areodynamic principle and applied it to the bumblebee and thus his calculations were incorrect. Had he taken into consideration the effects of dynamic stall then it would have become immediately apparent that a bumblebee can and does fly, and it does this very well.

Taking the facts into account, we can conclude that a bumblebee was designed to fly and fly it does. Therefore it only through ignorance that we use the addage that a bumblebee cannot fly when everyone knows this is untrue. The story of the bumblebee that cannot fly happens to fit in quite nicely with my theory that humans are wont to believe whatever appeals to them, be it true or not.

If anyone believes that bumblebees cannot fly simply because one scientist made a rough calculation and was incorrect, then I suppose that the other old addage "Ignorance is bliss" applies quite nicely as well.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

Rangler - I'll again ask you the question you dodged a couple days ago:

If the various treasure signs you claim to know the meanings of are indeed 'Jesuit/King's fifth' in origin as you've stated, then why haven't the Jesuits or the Kingdom of Spain filed legal claims for same and recovered them? Following your explanations, they can surely establish ownership of the caches, and with today's international salvage laws extending to land-based claims, not to mention 'proof of origin' state treasure trove laws, it should be a relatively easy recovery mission for them. Why hasn't this occurred, Rangler?

 

[lamar]

Dear bob631;
Trust me, my friend I harbor NO desire to restrict your movements, thoughts, deeds, actions or suppositions. That you are so obviously passionate in your quest speaks quite highly of your beliefs and fortitude and I applaud your unwavering efforts, misguided though I think they may be my friend.

What I do not enjoy reading about is when someone accuses a member or an associate of the IHS (Jesuits) of having placed a mark, sign or symbol on a natural object. There is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that ANY member or associate of the IHS did this at any time during the existence of the Order.

That some Jesuits were mining engineers proves nothing. Other Jesuits were astronomers, yet they did not invent the Universe. Still other Jesuits were doctors, yet did not help to intentionally spread diseases. Jesuits were simply ordinary Catholics who received a calling and became members of the Society of Jesus in order that they may aide their fellow man, spiritually and academically.

The Jesuits are the most scientifically minded Order among Roman Catholics and there have been many great Jesuit scholars. In fact, just as an aside, the Big Bang theory was proposed by Fr. Georges Lemaître a well known and highly respected astronomer and mathematian who was also a Roman Catholic priest and a Jesuit.

The list of famous Jesuit scholars goes on and go, yet people seem to persist in the notion that the Jesuits are somehow involved in a huge conspiracy, spanning several hundred years and that Roman Catholics are stoic in their beliefs and backwards in their thinking. In fact, the largest astronomical observatory system in the world happens to be the Vatican Observatory and it's contribution to astronomy and physics is without peer.

Boston College? A Jesuit run and operated University. Notre Dame? Also staffed in part by the Jesuits. As a point of fact, there are 28 colleges and universities in the united States alone which are collectively known as The Association of Jesuit Colleges & Universities.

To accuse an Order such as this of crimes which they did not commit is hateful and sinful, IMVHO, when their primary goal is to teach their fellow man, to provide an education to mankind and to better our world through the attainment of knowledge.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[rangler]

springer..said
why haven't the Jesuits or the Kingdom of Spain filed legal claims for same and recovered them?

ah..maybe because we are a sovereign country and your not a attorney. Your vain attempt to discredit the very idea
of treasures is your only motive..maybe you and Father Lamar should hook up at a prayer breakfast..

If your 'logic' is - you what you have demonstrated repeatably as faulty - and this one more example of that fact..IF
your logic was true..then Mexico would have sued us for the return of of New Mexico, Arizona, California, Texas
Oklahoma, Colorado, ect ect..get the picture?

See what I am saying Springfield, Bob or whatever id your using......

Father Lamar said......
"Ignorance is bliss" applies quite nicely as well.

PLEASE leave us in your blissful absence!!!

Your misguided attempt to turn this in to an endless academic debating team, with the Heavenly Debaters against the Grubby Treasure Plunders, is a failure, please cease and desist, Please check out the History Hunters web site..they will love you there....and we will love you there too..nuff said
I REST MY CASE
rangler

 

[lamar]

Dear rangler;
Please, do not get so excited my overly compassionate friend. I was merely attempting to illuminate the terrain in which you currently find yourself traversing. Oddly enough, every statement that I have made is steeped in richly documented history, yet there seems to be a disporportionately large number of people who refuse to believe the facts at hand and they instead would rather believe something entirely different.

It pains me to see you so distraught, my obviously very excitable friend. You've asked that I depart from this topic in no uncertain terms and I, being in a charitable mood tonight, wish to negotiate the terms of my withdrawl.

In order for me to leave your presence, I first require an apology. A heartfelt and sincere apology, as it were. This apology should make note of the crass and rude behavior shown towards myself and others who have participated in this topic, and the desire for forgiveness shall be of paramount importance. I ask for this in order to retain my dignity and sense of honor, and if you are an honorable man, then I feel that this should be but a trifle for you to comply with.
Next, I desire that the lies and slanders leveled against the Jesuits and other innocent religious groups be retracted immediately, and not be restated in the future.

Being the magnimous and jolly sort of fellow that I am, I shall restrict my conditions to only these two salient points. Please consider my terms and if you desire to see me withdraw then it might behoove you to take heed of my conditions as I have set them forth.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Dear rangler;
Please, do not get so excited my overly compassionate friend. I was merely attempting to illuminate the terrain in which you currently find yourself traversing. Oddly enough, every statement that I have made is steeped in richly documented history, yet there seems to be a disporportionately large number of people who refuse to believe the facts at hand and they instead would rather believe something entirely different.

It pains me to see you so distraught, my obviously very excitable friend. You've asked that I depart from this topic in no uncertain terms and I, being in a charitable mood tonight, wish to negotiate the terms of my withdrawl.

In order for me to leave your presence, I first require an apology. A heartfelt and sincere apology, as it were. This apology should make note of the crass and rude behavior shown towards myself and others who have participated in this topic, and the desire for forgiveness shall be of paramount importance. I ask for this in order to retain my dignity and sense of honor, and if you are an honorable man, then I feel that this should be but a trifle for you to comply with.
Next, I desire that the lies and slanders leveled against the Jesuits and other innocent religious groups be retracted immediately, and not be restated in the future.

Being the magnimous and jolly sort of fellow that I am, I shall restrict my conditions to only these two salient points. Please consider my terms and if you desire to see me withdraw then it might behoove you to take heed of my conditions as I have set them forth.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Just out of curiosity, do you require that people bow down and kiss your finger, or just make confession to you.

 

[rangler]

Now that you have Hi-Jacked this thread..and disinegrated into a boring debate over dry facts and allegations. The damage is done. but I will continue hoping that this will be the end of this Academia vs the Real World debate.

lamar..you wrote..
Dear rangler;
Please, do not get so excited my overly compassionate friend. I was merely attempting to illuminate the terrain in which you currently find yourself traversing. Oddly enough, every statement that I have made is steeped in richly documented history, yet there seems to be a disporportionately large number of people who refuse to believe the facts at hand and they instead would rather believe something entirely different.

Well Lamar that does nothing to dispell my retort that secret agreements are still secret, even from your keen and far reaching research that you clearly are passionate about your self,,and over passionate as well when it comes to protecting and the deeds and or reputation of the Church, its minions and its 'adventures'.

It pains me to see you so distraught, my obviously very excitable friend. You've asked that I depart from this topic in no uncertain terms and I, being in a charitable mood tonight, wish to negotiate the terms of my withdrawl.

You Sir are mistaken in the thought that you perceive me as distraught, what you see is incredulousness, misdiagnosed! That is firmly anchored deep in the decades of hands on, boots on research out in the real world, not the cloistered ivory towers of Academe.
I only wish I could teleport you to the reality of Jesuit, yes Jesuit Treasure Monuments and Signs, with the aid of the Masons perectly crafted on boulders and stone. Just because this was the biggest State Secret of Spain and the Church, is NOT the reason why you so lemming like you follow the cover story over the cliff..I dont blame you what-so-ever. You however are unnecessarily absorbing the blame of the Mother Church and trying to Deflect, Defend, and Deny the acts and subsequent true history of the Jesuits and by association the Church herself. I understand, the subtle brainwashing, most of it voluntarily propelled by a 'wanting to believe' wanting to be a part of something of a 'higher nature' a Supreme Being...Not your fault really..we all are human.. I speak from personal experience, having found God first, way before the supplementary calling of following the Jesuits and there treasure craft



In order for me to leave your presence, I first require an apology. A heartfelt and sincere apology, as it were. This apology should make note of the crass and rude behavior shown towards myself and others who have participated in this topic, and the desire for forgiveness shall be of paramount importance.

Nothing crass or rude was intended to you, except for you wanting to be defending institutions that you had no connection with, by your own admission, so therefore it was inadvertent on your part as well as mine...With all due respect Father, I have my own spiritually intact and don't have to ask for forgiveness from other mere mortals. I and my conscious will bear the fruit of my deeds, personally, However, I will submit to your request IF you yourself apologize for trying to turn this happy go lucky fun treasure forum into a boring lecture on the percieved value of believing the 'company line' and dismissing anything that cant be proved by foot notes and annotations. While the whole time swallowing the cover stories and lies put forth all the players, then just because you found documents that were in effect lies, by their errors of omission,,you quote those as some kind of absolute truth..when is of course is not. OK..if you will I certainly will.


I ask for this in order to retain my dignity and sense of honor, and if you are an honorable man, then I feel that this should be but a trifle for you to comply with.

Sir, ah..My friend Lamar..your dignity was intact when you came here, and is intact now..and will be intact when and if you leave here.
I have no control over any of your attributes or perceived lack there of... Your honor is without blemish as well, your only fault Sir is that your Skill of Debating and your Academically trained mind, was misplaced on a forum about secrets of gold mining, smelting.shipping, monument building, division of spoils ie, the famous 80/20 split with the King of Spain., Spies in the Kings Court conspiracies, political intrigues, the Inquisition, the French Revolution, and many more interesting times in the true history of the key players.Most of it hatched behind closed chambers, writted in code, later destoyed, if it was written down at all...

Next, I desire that the lies and slanders leveled against the Jesuits and other innocent religious groups be retracted immediately, and not be restated in the future.

Well Lamar, you wish to change history by selective memory, but alas, my understanding is much different. The Jesuits were the 'foot soldiers' of the Pope, used albeit at arms length,. for plausible denibility, (which of course what YOU are invoking now!)used to ship tons of riches from the New World to the Vatican.
Remember the 80% went to the Jesuits , who as you know took the vow of Poverty..and the Fourth Vow to the ultimate allegiance to the Pope, beyond the loyalty to the King of Spain. That is where the bulk of the gold ended up. Period. Oh they were NOT charged with stealing minerals, as it was all legal under the contract with the King.

Being the magnimous and jolly sort of fellow that I am, I shall restrict my conditions to only these two salient points. Please consider my terms and if you desire to see me withdraw then it might behoove you to take heed of my conditions as I have set them forth.

I am sure that you are magnanimous and jollyu sort of fellow, and where that we were having a few brews, that you would like a jolly fellow buy every other round as gentlemen are wont to do...and I do not slander them, Sir, they slander them selves by their past actions and attributes. I wish it were not true for you sake, but the world is not the rosy world that the Institutions of Higher Liberal Education would have you to believe, and the early centuries, it was more brutal than can be accurately portrayed here in mixed company or in front of the faint of heart, brutal times, brutal acts, greed, mayhem, conquistadors, wars, intrigues and revolutions. The times required the acts performed, it was necessary the way all the actors saw it at the time..I am sure like you they all wish they had been more noble, more considerate, benign, more honorable, but this was not the case.

Only rose colored glasses and political correctness preached by the liberals of the University World, make what you wish to be, to be the truth.
The old expression of 'written in stone' true then as today..that is why I chose to believe what was written in stone as opposed to a revisionist view of the past..
Finally, Lamar, I dont hold you as a perpetrator of these facts of history , as much as a victim of them..as you have been mislead
like so many others, while you may be more articulate and have the propensity to annotate more than them - you all share the common misconception..you all believe the cover story and are helpless to change your minds, because the solution,needed to do that..are not written down or footnoted, or annotated, or documented and have vanished with the passing of those who held those secrets in their hearts as the last valiant act.......but friends what is left is the Legacy in Stone, that the Jesuits and the Masons left for us to decode. It is written in Stone! It is written in Stone...It is written in Stone
I rest my case



auferiously
rangler

"The moving Finger writes; and, having writ, moves on: nor all your Piety nor wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your tears wash out a Word of it".........Omar Khayyam

 

[Old Dog]

Dear group;
The old wives' tale that bumblebees are not supposed to fly is yet another grand example of a myth that was supposed to be a reality. Here is a direct quote from Wikipedia:
"André Sainte-Laguë (April 20, 1882 – January 18, 1950) was a French mathematician who was a pioneer in the area of graph theory. His research on seat allocation methods (published in 1910) led to one being named after him, the Sainte-Laguë method. Also named after him is the Sainte-Laguë Index for measuring the proportionality of an electoral outcome.

He is notable for his informal calculation demonstrating that a bumblebee could not fly, referred to in the introduction of 'Le Vol Des Insects' (Hermann and Cle, Paris, 1934) by the entomologist August Magnan. This casual calculation was based on a comparison between an aeroplane and a bee, and assumed that bees' wings were smooth and flat. He, and others, soon corrected this assumption but the story of the scientist who demonstrated that bee flight was impossible persists to this day[1]."

Obviously, the man followed a simplified areodynamic principle and applied it to the bumblebee and thus his calculations were incorrect. Had he taken into consideration the effects of dynamic stall then it would have become immediately apparent that a bumblebee can and does fly, and it does this very well.

Taking the facts into account, we can conclude that a bumblebee was designed to fly and fly it does. Therefore it only through ignorance that we use the addage that a bumblebee cannot fly when everyone knows this is untrue. The story of the bumblebee that cannot fly happens to fit in quite nicely with my theory that humans are wont to believe whatever appeals to them, be it true or not.

If anyone believes that bumblebees cannot fly simply because one scientist made a rough calculation and was incorrect, then I suppose that the other old addage "Ignorance is bliss" applies quite nicely as well.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,
Along the same lines...
Assuming that the SJ never hid treasure
Applies along the same principals.

Get through with this ...thing .
or we will make a public thing of this subject.

either make a point that is irrefutable or get off the subject.
irrefutable is what I'm talking.

Too many people know the obverse.
I don't need to post beyond this point
The facts speak for themselves.

If you really want to do this my addy is right there ...

USE IT
Give me proof beyond what I gave you in past posts
The only thing you can tell me is that you have ignored what I have given you.

put up or shut up
Thom

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
As I've yet to read of an apology, heartfelt or otherwise, I shall consider this topic as remaining open to debate. Henceforth, let us proceed with this discourse in the spirit of the debate for which it is intended. I might ask that we not allow tempers to flare and become overly hot, nor should any person wishing to particpate in this discussion allow personal feelings or prejudices to get in the way.

First, there is no association between the Masonic Lodge and the Society of Jesus that I am aware of. As a point of fact, the Masonic Lodge has in the past been deemed an esoteric fraternal organization and as such, it is strictly verboden (forbidden) for a member of the Roman Catholic church to be a member of a Masonic Lodge as set forth in several past letters written by the Holy See. To clarify further, the Masonic Lodge permits practicing Roman Catholic to become members, however the Roman Catholic church does not wish for It's members to be a part of a Masonic Lodge.

Next, that the IHS (Jesuits) have often been called the "soldiers of Christ" and the "footsoldiers of the Pope" is because the founding member of the Order, St. Ignatius de Loyola, was a nobleman and a knight before becoming a Roman Catholic priest. The titles were meant to be taken solely in the spiritual context and in no way did they imply that any member of the Society of Jesus was armed at any point or that any member of the Society of Jesus maimed or slew another human being.

That the Society of Jesus answered only to the Pope is a misconception which persists to this day. The intent was for the Pope to be the "ultimate" authority in all things related to various missions of the Society of Jesus. This is because the various older Orders were becoming bogged down in local politics and as such were more often times than not, slowly becoming subjects of the various heads of state instead of remaining politically neutral as was the original intent of all the ancient Roman Catholic Orders.

St. Ignatius also encouraged all Jesuits to follow the letter of the Scriptures as set forth by Roman Catholic doctrines and as such, the ultimate authority of the Church has traditionally been the Holy See, therefore it stands to reason that the Jesuits considered the Pope to be the ultimate authority. Please note that this does not mean that the Pope served as the leader of the Society of Jesus, or that the following generations of sitting Popes even paid particular attention to the Jesuit Order.

It only means that the Pope was the ultimate referee in all things. Whereas, in times prior to the formation of the Jesuits, if one of the older Catholic religious Orders had a disagreement, it was most generally resolved either amongst themselves, or with the local Bishop involved, or in rarer cases, with the local nobility becoming involved.

The social and political impact of using the Holy See as the ultimate authority meant that the Society of Jesus did not need to take heed of the wishes and desires of the political nobility and that they were pretty much free to run their missions as they saw fit. This is what ultimately led to the false accusations leveled at the Jesuits by the Royal houses of Spain and Portugal and led to their ultimate expulsion and suppression in the New World colonies.

As an aisde, I am neither Father nor Brother, as I am not ordained, nor have I been ordained, nor do I wish to become ordained. I am naught but an ordinary Roman Catholic. I will cheerfully discuss and debate any relevant topic related to the Roman Catholic church during the colonization of the New World but I will do so ONLY in the strict historical context and I absolutely refuse to become engaged in matters of theology on this forum. Therefore, if anyone has a question or statement regarding the Jesuits and their role in the settlement of the New World, I would like to request that it be kept strictly in the historical context and and not a theological one.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

..... Therefore, if anyone has a question or statement regarding the Jesuits and their role in the settlement of the New World, I would like to request that it be kept strictly in the historical context and and not a theological one....

Oh boy. Yes, this would indeed be controversial for the Church of Rome, including the SJ.

Let's summarize. Bottom line of this thread and recent similar others so far (as I read the sentiments of the various contributors, past and present) seems to be: 1) Based on compelling circumstantial evidence, most allege that there was significent Jesuit mining activity in New World North America (southern/central Arizona); 2) our friend Lamar has valiently refuted this allegation as a staunch apologist for the Society of Jesus; 3) Rangler claims every petroglyph and stone monument found in the American Southwest ('millions' by his count) leads to a Jesuit cache and he can prove it; 4) Springfield alleges that a very limited number of the above carvings are probably associated with treasure caches, but that the 'who, why, how and where' is still very much debatable and known for certain only to those who left same caches behind.

 

[lamar]

Dear Springfield;
I tend to agree with your assessments, my friend. My biggest piece of evidence that the symbols carved on rocks and trees in the US southwest and Northern Mexico are from some other source other than Spanish or Jesuit miners is that no where else in the New World have any such carvings been discovered, either in Central or South America, or the southern portion of Mexico, for that matter.

As I reside in South America in an area with a very strong Jesuit influence and I've yet to hear of a single petrogylph which has been surmised to have possibly been either Spanish or Jesuit in origin, I can conclude that the symbols being found in the Southwestern US and Upper Mexico must have come from an entirely different source.

That the same Jesuits were missionaries all over the New World colonies would lead one to conclude that they all shared common goals, thoughts, ideas, doctrines and practices, and in practice I've found this to be very consistent, right down to the local architecture. Jesuit missionaries also tended to move freely throughout their mission system, yet the markings seem to be concentrated in only one area. If the Jesuits were carving these symbols, then it would stand to reason that they would have been carving symbols in the Central and South American colonies as well, yet this has not been the case.

Therefore, based on my vast knowledge of the Jesuits in the New World, their doctrines and practices, we can conclude with a one hundred percent certainty that the Jesuits did not carve any symbols, other than religious ones, and only on buildings. I rest my case.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear cache crazy;
As an FYI, it's the ring that is kissed, not the finger. And to answer your question, yes you may bow down to me if it makes you feel better to do so.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Dear cache crazy;
As an FYI, it's the ring that is kissed, not the finger. And to answer your question, yes you may bow down to me if it makes you feel better to do so.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Unless he started wearing the ring on his toe, it's still on his finger.

I respectfully decline your offer, as idle worship is not in my faith.