ANCIENT VOICES: Ditlihi's Journey Into The Truth Of Ancient Treasure In The Southwest
- Thread starter Ditlihi
- Start date
I'm still waiting for Markmar to post his treasure story from the Tres Hermanas area.
I figured we could have a dance off between the Persian Belly Dancers and the Greek Tsifteteli.
Just an Intermezzo......while waiting.............
- May 9, 2012
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This is an Excellent observation, RC, and precisely what I was referring to when I said my general impression was one of adapting a foreign place to resemble one more familiar.
More please!
Foreign....
Long an avid reader I usually am off and rolling after a couple pages right along as the author intended. In English and with lifeways I'm familier with.
Foreign though....
The is a book around here titled(?) Lakota Belief And Ritual.
Trying to understand/translate/ comprehend two pages of some one describing something is a mammoth undertaking.
Layer upon layer over one condition.
Because any condition can be affected by other conditions. And a human is multiple possibilities as far as the result ,based on that individual and what they possess (possess in terms of their beings ,in tangibles, in experience and more ect. (!) It's not really a "power" thing or struggle. More a compatibility or not in strengths , or existing gifts ranking.
Words from the language change with slight spelling (probably inflection to?) to a similar but different reason , but depending on the subject (human or spirit ,or what passes between them ,based on multiple variables..) a word can have another meaning.
Very convoluted if not understood. (And I understand very little.)
Transferred to a painting (of scattered numbers and letters and half of them affecting/effecting the other half depending on what they are affected by) for example , the only hope would be interpretation from some one familiar with it ,or it's creator.
Fortunately the author gives mostly literal accounting from those interviewed. Amazing as the difficulty is in understanding a kaleidoscope becomes of what you(a reader) would have be a simple explanation , nothing is really cut and dried or a given when humans and spirits are involved.
And then there are spirits , and there are spirits.
A car can have a spirit. It can also be affected by what spirit it has when exposed to other spirits. Or it may not. Depending on the cars spirit , and what spirit it encounters and if they are familiar or biased on either side.
For the rare spirit causing trouble or conflict with the car ,(it's spirit ,or it contesting a spirit or either contesting the auto's owner) either the spirit goes through/forward , or it fights the conflict ,or it seeks intervention.
But can that intervention assist the opposition? Oh boy!
So I know little of many cultures. Have been exposed to a few. Even involved in some.
But do know that what a society's people accept as belief ,it does not matter what I think of it.
But is useful to not breach etiquette.
A culture believes touching some one on the head is an insult , it matters.
Another is the same way about feet ,it is important.
A picture/painting of some one being touched anywhere could mean nothing to a stranger. And everything to the artist ,or a member of the artist's clan ,or nation...
How the heck to interpret monuments or glyphs or anything else Foreign is fraught with miscommunication and speculation and worse if without certain context inherent in the origins ; yet sometimes lost through time or error.
That should never stop onlookers from seeking meaning. But the true literal may escape. Devaluing the experience nothing though ,if the perspective is kept youthful.
We know who painted the Mona Lisa. That's a big deal in trying to interpret her.
But why is she smiling? She is smiling...Right?
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OP
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Ditlihi
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Foreign....
Long an avid reader I usually am off and rolling after a couple pages right along as the author intended. In English and with lifeways I'm familier with.
Foreign though....
The is a book around here titled(?) Lakota Belief And Ritual.
Trying to understand/translate/ comprehend two pages of some one describing something is a mammoth undertaking.
Layer upon layer over one condition.
Because any condition can be affected by other conditions. Ans a human is multiple possibilities as far as the result ,based on that individual and what they possess (posess in their beings ,in tangibles, in experience and more ect. (!)
Words from the language change with slight spelling (probably inflection to?) to a similar but different reason , but depending on the subject (human or spirit ,or what passes between them ,based on multiple variables..) a word can have another meaning.
Very convoluted if not understood.
Transferred to a painting (of scattered numbers and letters and half of them affecting/effecting the other half depending on what they are affected by) for example , the only hope would be interpretation from some one familiar with it ,or it's creator.
Fortunately the author gives mostly literal accounting from those interviewed. Amazing as the difficulty is in understanding a kaleidoscope becomes of what you(a reader) would have be a simple explanation , nothing is really cut and dried or a given when humans and spirits are involved.
And then there are spirits , and there are spirits.
A car can have a spirit. It can also be affected by what spirit it has when exposed to other spirits. Or it may not. Depending on the cars spirit , and what spirit it encounters and if they are familiar or biased on either side.
For the rare spirit causing trouble or conflict with the car ,(it's spirit ,or it contesting a spirit or either contesting the auto's owner) either the spirit goes through/fiorward , or it fights the conflict ,or it seeks intervention.
But can that intervention assist the opposition? Oh boy!
So I know little of many cultures.
But do know that what a society's people accept as belief ,it does not matter what I think of it.
But is useful to not breach etiquette.
A culture believes touching some one on the head is an insult , it matters.
Another is the same way about feet ,it is important.
A picture/painting of some one being touched anywhere could mean nothing to a stranger. And everything to the artist ,or a member of the artist's clan ,or nation...
How the heck to interpret monuments or glyphs or anything else Foreign is fraught with miscommunication and speculation and worse if without certain context inherent in the origins ; yet sometimes lost through time or error.
That should never stop onlookers from seeking meaning. But the true literal may escape. Devaluing the experience nothing though ,if the perspective is kept youthful.
We know who painted the Mona Lisa. That's a big deal in trying to interpret her.
But why is she smiling? She is smiling...Right?
Absolutely spot on, my friend.
And yes, she IS smiling.
I...I...I’ve never looked at her in that way, before.
BillA
Bronze Member
mdog
the hat fetish will get you every time
the hat fetish will get you every time
Neither did she....
But, THAT'S what I call a Real Beauty. Yeah.
Muah-muah.
View attachment 1712870 View attachment 1712871
All done tonite
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weekender
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Ditlihi,
Keep it coming! Wish I could have took that hike
with you and Dog. I can almost hear the whispers
just by looking at the pictures and reading your posts.
Glad you're back!
-Weekender
Mike
Keep it coming! Wish I could have took that hike
with you and Dog. I can almost hear the whispers
just by looking at the pictures and reading your posts.
Glad you're back!
-Weekender
Mike
Hi Ditlihi. Here's a post of mine from one of my threads that you might want to consider if you are ever looking for evidence of Old World exploration in the New World.
I'm going to post some links that might give you a new way to look for evidence of ancient contact in North America. I don't know if anybody has ever looked for evidence from this angle before.
Here are a couple of time periods to remember while reading the links.
Old Copper Culture-4000-1000 BC
Bronze Age Europe-3200-600 BC
Bronze Age Near East 3300-1200 BC
When the first Spanish returned from the New World in the mid 1490's, they brought more than Aztec silver and gold, they brought syphilis. Here are the links and remember the dates I posted above.
https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php...62000000200009
Non-Unitarian Theory
The most important supporter of this theory is Hackett (1963, 1967) who suggests that the different clinical pictures are probably produced by treponemal mutations. At least four mutations have occurred in the last 10.000 years. He suggests that the first and oldest treponematosis mustbe pinta, extending from Africa and Asia to America 15.000 years ago. He suggests that mutation occurred around 10,000 B.C. and that it was due to a more humid and warm environment. He suggested that for the origin of yaws that extended through Africa, Southeastern Asia and probably Pacific islands and Australasia. He suggested that a second mutation from yaws to bejel or endemic syphilis took place 7.000 years B.C. It was favored by an arid and warm environment in Sahara and Northern Africa, Central and Southwestern Asia, and Central Australia. He suggested that another mutation appeared around 3.000 B.C., coinciding with the development of urban areas in Eastern Mediterranean regions and Southwestern Asia. He suggested that bejel (typical in children of rural regions) mutated to venereal syphilis. The fourth and last mutation took place in Europe in the final years of the fifteenth century and it was favored by environmental and social conditions of the cities presenting more serious repercussions.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956094/
Hypotheses on the origin of syphilis
The pre-columbian hypothesis. The advocates of this hypothesis claim that not only syphilis was widely spread in both Old and New World, but also the other treponemal diseases. In Europe, most of these conditions were mistaken for leprosy [3]. According to this hypothesis, pinta occurred in Afro-Asian zone by the year 15.000 BC, having an animal reservoir. Yaws appeared as a consequence of the mutations in pinta around 10.000 BC and spread allover the world, except for the American continent which was isolated. The endemic syphilis emerged from jaws by the selection of several treponemas, as a consequence of climate changes (the appearance of the arid climate) around 7000 BC. Around 3000 BC the sexually transmitted syphilis emerged from endemic syphilis in South-Western Asia, due to lower temperatures of the post-glacial era and spread to Europe and the rest of the world. Initially it manifested as a mild disease, eventually aggravated and grew in virulence, suffering from several mutations, at the end of the 15th century [2,3].
https://archive.archaeology.org/9701.../syphilis.html
Using these criteria, they examined 687 skeletons from archaeological sites in the United States and Ecuador ranging in age from 400 to 6,000 years. Populations to the south (New Mexico, Florida, and Ecuador) proved to have syphilis, while those to the north (Ohio, Illinois, and Virginia) had yaws. By contrast, examination of 1,000 Old World skeletons dated to before contact with the New World revealed no cases of syphilis. This suggests that syphilis was first present in the New World and was later brought to the Old World. Furthermore, the Rothschilds found that the earliest yaws cases in the New World collections were at least 6,000 years old, while the first syphilis cases were at least 800 years old and perhaps more than 1,600 years old. This suggests that syphilis may be a New World mutation of yaws, which has a worldwide distribution. The occurrence of the same mutation giving rise to syphilis independently in the New and Old worlds seems unlikely.
Here are a couple of time periods to remember while reading the links.
Old Copper Culture-4000-1000 BC
Bronze Age Europe-3200-600 BC
Bronze Age Near East 3300-1200 BC
When the first Spanish returned from the New World in the mid 1490's, they brought more than Aztec silver and gold, they brought syphilis. Here are the links and remember the dates I posted above.
https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php...62000000200009
Non-Unitarian Theory
The most important supporter of this theory is Hackett (1963, 1967) who suggests that the different clinical pictures are probably produced by treponemal mutations. At least four mutations have occurred in the last 10.000 years. He suggests that the first and oldest treponematosis mustbe pinta, extending from Africa and Asia to America 15.000 years ago. He suggests that mutation occurred around 10,000 B.C. and that it was due to a more humid and warm environment. He suggested that for the origin of yaws that extended through Africa, Southeastern Asia and probably Pacific islands and Australasia. He suggested that a second mutation from yaws to bejel or endemic syphilis took place 7.000 years B.C. It was favored by an arid and warm environment in Sahara and Northern Africa, Central and Southwestern Asia, and Central Australia. He suggested that another mutation appeared around 3.000 B.C., coinciding with the development of urban areas in Eastern Mediterranean regions and Southwestern Asia. He suggested that bejel (typical in children of rural regions) mutated to venereal syphilis. The fourth and last mutation took place in Europe in the final years of the fifteenth century and it was favored by environmental and social conditions of the cities presenting more serious repercussions.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956094/
Hypotheses on the origin of syphilis
The pre-columbian hypothesis. The advocates of this hypothesis claim that not only syphilis was widely spread in both Old and New World, but also the other treponemal diseases. In Europe, most of these conditions were mistaken for leprosy [3]. According to this hypothesis, pinta occurred in Afro-Asian zone by the year 15.000 BC, having an animal reservoir. Yaws appeared as a consequence of the mutations in pinta around 10.000 BC and spread allover the world, except for the American continent which was isolated. The endemic syphilis emerged from jaws by the selection of several treponemas, as a consequence of climate changes (the appearance of the arid climate) around 7000 BC. Around 3000 BC the sexually transmitted syphilis emerged from endemic syphilis in South-Western Asia, due to lower temperatures of the post-glacial era and spread to Europe and the rest of the world. Initially it manifested as a mild disease, eventually aggravated and grew in virulence, suffering from several mutations, at the end of the 15th century [2,3].
https://archive.archaeology.org/9701.../syphilis.html
Using these criteria, they examined 687 skeletons from archaeological sites in the United States and Ecuador ranging in age from 400 to 6,000 years. Populations to the south (New Mexico, Florida, and Ecuador) proved to have syphilis, while those to the north (Ohio, Illinois, and Virginia) had yaws. By contrast, examination of 1,000 Old World skeletons dated to before contact with the New World revealed no cases of syphilis. This suggests that syphilis was first present in the New World and was later brought to the Old World. Furthermore, the Rothschilds found that the earliest yaws cases in the New World collections were at least 6,000 years old, while the first syphilis cases were at least 800 years old and perhaps more than 1,600 years old. This suggests that syphilis may be a New World mutation of yaws, which has a worldwide distribution. The occurrence of the same mutation giving rise to syphilis independently in the New and Old worlds seems unlikely.
Reply
It seems as if yaws didn't appear in the New World until at least 6000 years ago because of its isolation from the rest of the World. 6000 years ago was about the time that copper was being mined in the Lake Superior region. Maybe there was some connection between the introduction of yaws, in the New World, and the people who were mining the copper. Also, it seems that yaws mutated into syphilis 800-1600 years ago. Maybe the mutation took place during a migration from the cooler northern regions to the warmer regions of New Mexico and Florida. Whatever happened, the people who introduced yaws never went back to the Old World after the mutation, not from the southwest anyway.
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PROSPECTORMIKEL
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Hi Ditlihi. Here's a post of mine from one of my threads that you might want to consider if you are ever looking for evidence of Old World exploration in the New World.
I'm going to post some links that might give you a new way to look for evidence of ancient contact in North America. I don't know if anybody has ever looked for evidence from this angle before.
Here are a couple of time periods to remember while reading the links.
Old Copper Culture-4000-1000 BC
Bronze Age Europe-3200-600 BC
Bronze Age Near East 3300-1200 BC
When the first Spanish returned from the New World in the mid 1490's, they brought more than Aztec silver and gold, they brought syphilis. Here are the links and remember the dates I posted above.
https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php...62000000200009
Non-Unitarian Theory
The most important supporter of this theory is Hackett (1963, 1967) who suggests that the different clinical pictures are probably produced by treponemal mutations. At least four mutations have occurred in the last 10.000 years. He suggests that the first and oldest treponematosis mustbe pinta, extending from Africa and Asia to America 15.000 years ago. He suggests that mutation occurred around 10,000 B.C. and that it was due to a more humid and warm environment. He suggested that for the origin of yaws that extended through Africa, Southeastern Asia and probably Pacific islands and Australasia. He suggested that a second mutation from yaws to bejel or endemic syphilis took place 7.000 years B.C. It was favored by an arid and warm environment in Sahara and Northern Africa, Central and Southwestern Asia, and Central Australia. He suggested that another mutation appeared around 3.000 B.C., coinciding with the development of urban areas in Eastern Mediterranean regions and Southwestern Asia. He suggested that bejel (typical in children of rural regions) mutated to venereal syphilis. The fourth and last mutation took place in Europe in the final years of the fifteenth century and it was favored by environmental and social conditions of the cities presenting more serious repercussions.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956094/
Hypotheses on the origin of syphilis
The pre-columbian hypothesis. The advocates of this hypothesis claim that not only syphilis was widely spread in both Old and New World, but also the other treponemal diseases. In Europe, most of these conditions were mistaken for leprosy [3]. According to this hypothesis, pinta occurred in Afro-Asian zone by the year 15.000 BC, having an animal reservoir. Yaws appeared as a consequence of the mutations in pinta around 10.000 BC and spread allover the world, except for the American continent which was isolated. The endemic syphilis emerged from jaws by the selection of several treponemas, as a consequence of climate changes (the appearance of the arid climate) around 7000 BC. Around 3000 BC the sexually transmitted syphilis emerged from endemic syphilis in South-Western Asia, due to lower temperatures of the post-glacial era and spread to Europe and the rest of the world. Initially it manifested as a mild disease, eventually aggravated and grew in virulence, suffering from several mutations, at the end of the 15th century [2,3].
https://archive.archaeology.org/9701.../syphilis.html
Using these criteria, they examined 687 skeletons from archaeological sites in the United States and Ecuador ranging in age from 400 to 6,000 years. Populations to the south (New Mexico, Florida, and Ecuador) proved to have syphilis, while those to the north (Ohio, Illinois, and Virginia) had yaws. By contrast, examination of 1,000 Old World skeletons dated to before contact with the New World revealed no cases of syphilis. This suggests that syphilis was first present in the New World and was later brought to the Old World. Furthermore, the Rothschilds found that the earliest yaws cases in the New World collections were at least 6,000 years old, while the first syphilis cases were at least 800 years old and perhaps more than 1,600 years old. This suggests that syphilis may be a New World mutation of yaws, which has a worldwide distribution. The occurrence of the same mutation giving rise to syphilis independently in the New and Old worlds seems unlikely.
MDOG, that’s a good chunk of viable history. A good read and explains a good deal of medical history.
What’s odd about it, is the urge that I had to clean my phone with an alcohol wipe after reading it 80{>~, before anyone could call me....
Probably just the way I’m wired!
#/;0{>~
OP
OP
Ditlihi
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Wow Mike, DTTH and I were just talking about you and wishing you were here with us yesterday! We have so much to cover at this site still, and another site yet to come. Not to mention some interesting places in the Cookes Range I have on my agenda. Dang it, homeboy, you need to get yourself out here, lol. (And bring some vittles, the rabbits out here are too dang skinny and I'm still pouting over missing out on a bumper crop of morels this year).
OP
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Ditlihi
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Now THAT is mighty interesting...Thank You! I would use the clapping smiley icon, but....well....
I can see I am going to be doing some research into this tonight. If I might ask, what sent you down this particular avenue in your own research? It's an angle I have completely missed (and I follow your posts like a stalker, don't know how that happened), thank you for the links.
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PROSPECTORMIKEL
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Wow Mike, DTTH and I were just talking about you and wishing you were here with us yesterday! We have so much to cover at this site still, and another site yet to come. Not to mention some interesting places in the Cookes Range I have on my agenda. Dang it, homeboy, you need to get yourself out here, lol. (And bring some vittles, the rabbits out here are too dang skinny and I'm still pouting over missing out on a bumper crop of morels this year).
Dit, if you can get Mike out there, put a tracking collar on him before you let him out of the truck!
Then, all you have to do is, follow his trail and figure out what he stopped for!
I have never seen anything like it.
When he stops to think.... get your camera out and grab a shovel!
He has a wealth of knowledge to go with the instincts.
#/;0{>~
OP
OP
Ditlihi
Banned
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Duly noted, Sir.
That collar thing is a trait we share, must be our blood, lol. Not as much cover here though, he'll be easier to spot.
Just try finding a bush to squat behind.
Red Rover, Red Rover
Weekender come over!
dog the treasure hunter
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Dit, lets try this site out. Please bring your geologist rock pick and lap top. Maybe you can figure out that Janus head That Double K and D, not sure what Era those symbols are from, or what they mean. You work the lap top. Ill throw that Pick around some.
Real of Tayopa
Bronze Member
i AGREE dit, yOUAIN no SAINT.
dog the treasure hunter
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Check out how the Beak on the stone duck has that 3 shape, same has the stained duck on the rock face. Did someone in your thread say they have only seen stone ducks? Well here is one that is done in some type of staining paint.
Real of Tayopa
Bronze Member
hEY, JUST HOW DIO YOU GET SYPHILIS 
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