DEATH TRAPS: Here We Go Again........................

[gollum]

It seems that every couple of months, I have to make this same post. Hey Jeff, maybe you should pin this to the beginning of this area.

There are several people here that believe some very whacky things. I DON"T CARE! If you believe that the Templar Treasure is buried in the woods behind your mobile home, King Solomon's Mines are located under Third Base in Dodger Stadium, or the Ark of the Covenant is hidden in your outhouse........I DON"T CARE! I DON"T CARE! I DON"T CARE!

I DO CARE.....when those whacky ideas are the basis of recommendations that have the potential to get people hurt or killed. I could take the nice approach, and just leave it alone, buuuuuut, I would not want to hear that someone had been hurt or killed, when I could have said or done something to prevent it.

The following is a quick lesson on what a Death Trap is, what it means to find one, what forms they take, and how to deal with one.

1. What is a Death Trap? Many cultures used Death Traps to protect their caches, mines, or other valuable places when they were away. As my area of expertise is Spanish Colonial, that is what I will talk about. The Spanish only operated mines in Northern New Spain a few months a year. It is virtually impossible to completely work out a mine in a few months, so, when they had to head back South, they would hide, AND SOMETIMES, place boobytraps on their valuable mines.

2. What does it mean to find one? IF you find an actual Death Trap, it ONLY means ONE THING! You are in close proximity of a valuable mine or cache site. Remember, a Death Trap was a lot of work. Carving and moving boulders weighing several tons is not easy. There are other types of Death Traps, but we'll get to that in a moment.

3. What forms do Death Traps Take? There are several. Most, take the form of large boulders set to crush anybody who does not know what they are doing. Some will also bring down the whole side of a hill to cover you. There are also easier to make traps, but these are more difficult to remove. They have used arsenic powder to coat the bars of gold and silver. Also thickly dropped on the floor of the mine/cave. So that when you are kicking up the dust, you are breathing in your last breaths. The arsenic on the bars will get all over your hands, and when you rub your eyes, nose, or mouth, you will die shortly after as well. Rattlesnakes are very territorial, and as long as there is a food supply, they will stay in one place. They also live well in large groups. That is why Spaniards (and Mexican Miners) would gather up all the rattlesnakes for several miles and throw them all in the tunnel. They would stay there for many years.

4. What to do if you find a Death Trap? Death Traps are ALWAYS marked as such. Its just that your untrained eye may not be able to interpret the markers (that's what they counted on). There are quite a few books on the subject. READ THEM! If you find what you think is a Death Trap, DON"T GO IN! DON"T START CLEARING ROCKS FROM THE ENTRANCE! Take a bunch of pictures. Send those pictures to someone with REAL experience in working with Colonial Spanish Markers. If I can't figure it out, I can direct you to a few people who can.

Best-Mike

 

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[Old Dog]

Once again Mike,
Good post.
There are always those who don't understand why the Spanish built these things,
and they poo-poo the idea that a death trap is even there.

No I have never seen someone killed by one.
But my partner and I have come very close more than once.
luckily we have never tripped one either.
But there again we have come close.
We have dismantled several and the revelations are mind boggling.

Sometimes these things are even more concealed than the actual treasure site.
the signs are not static and they will only show up as you begin your set up for a recovery.

In all things I preach going slow, be observant and most of all if you are in doubt and are not sure...
Don't move anything. Get Help. Never do a recovery alone.

Thom
Just as Mike says there are many different kinds of traps and they do still work.

 

[truckinbutch]

Sound advice and solid truth from Mike and Thom.Take it to the bank.

 

[Mental Granny]

I have always heard alot about the Death Traps but never been anywhere around where there were any but from what I have read I know (not much) but, if I was to to be in an area where there might be one I know enough to stay away and not go near by my self or even in a group of 2 , and to get advice from someone who does know !

 

[Old Dog]

Smart Lady.

Evy, Here again I must repeat what Mike said before,
They aren't common, and when they are present you may never know they are there at all.

Don't let a thing like this spoil you chances of having a good time while you are out.
Just be observant and don't put your self in a position where your safety is in doubt.

You'll be fine,
Thom

 

[Mental Granny]

THANKS!

 

[Saturna]

If...

IF you find an actual Death Trap, it ONLY means ONE THING! You are in close proximity of a valuable mine or cache site.

And...

We have dismantled several and the revelations are mind boggling.

Than it follows that you have found several valuable mines and/or caches past these dismantled Death Traps.

Or am I missing something


Jay

 

[gollum]

If...

IF you find an actual Death Trap, it ONLY means ONE THING! You are in close proximity of a valuable mine or cache site.

And...

We have dismantled several and the revelations are mind boggling.

Than it follows that you have found several valuable mines and/or caches past these dismantled Death Traps.

Or am I missing something


Jay

Hey Jay,

Not personally knowing Old Dog, I can't vouch for anything he may or may not have found.

In the article below is one of mine from Anza-Borrego Desert. About halfway through the article, it gets into the Death Trap part. It was one that had previously been partially tripped (probably an earthquake as that area is at the Southern end of the San Andreas Fault). The cave it protects is mostly caved in. I cleared out some of it to get pretty far in at one time, but it recollapsed. Anything that might be in there, may be there for a loooong time, as it will take major work to clear the tunnel, and it's in a California State Park. Getting a permit to dig there would most likely be impossible in the People's Republic of California.

Best-Mike

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=27024.0

 

[Old Dog]

SWR
These mines were operated for only a few months each year.
when they left and concealed their workings the traps were to protect the investment of time and effort.
many times they also protected the unprocessed ore and gold that was too much for them to carry out.
Many times the King's quint was left behind
These stashes are marked with a different group of signs. and may or may not be trapped.

The Spanish miners weren't stupid and nobody here is trying to imply they were
there is a basic knowledge that you need to gather before making your blanket statements about how silly or stupid we are, because we do this.
Here as in the KGC thread you will get little if any satisfaction from trying to coerce info.
What you have here is very basic info.
It won't get any better or documented any deeper.
just a warning before you start.
You may be the only person who thinks the info should be common to all.
and all finds should go to a museum.
sorry to poop your party,
But someone had to do it.
If you want it to be that way go out find the trail and follow it .
Deal with the snakes, the Cactus and the heat.
locate and decipher the signs and finally locate the cache or mine...
And give it all up when you do.

don't expect anyone else to do what you wouldn't do.
Until you do all your big talk is just that.
Big talk.... YOU FIRST ... Show Me.

 

[someotherdude]

I know for a fact there are real death traps out there.
























I drive one

 

[Old Dog]

SWR

You may be the only person who thinks the info should be common to all.
and all finds should go to a museum.
sorry to poop your party,
But someone had to do it.
If you want it to be that way go out find the trail and follow it .
Deal with the snakes, the Cactus and the heat.
locate and decipher the signs and finally locate the cache or mine...
And give it all up when you do.

don't expect anyone else to do what you wouldn't do.
Until you do all your big talk is just that.
Big talk.... YOU FIRST ... Show Me.

Here is to your novel Idea...
you gather up some new information and We can trade.
Until then you can sit on everyone's ignore and harp all you want.

As far as attacks go, you instigate and then deny.
I didn't attack. Period.
I only stated fact.
You want the info ... work for it just as we have.
You seem to think all should be to some common goal to enrich society as a whole.
The only purpose you will actually find is an enrichment program that centers on the individual hunter.
We have nothing to prove to you.
We would rather let you think your happy happy thoughts about winning some hypothetical debate about documentation.

What is shared here is as I said common knowledge and basic at that.
There is no way you will get more than that until you show us what you have.
Share and share alike.

My suggestion is to stop while you are ahead,
ridicule is no way to influence anyone positively.

 

[Leones Corazon]

My two cents....
My mentor that came before my partner thom...taught me about DT's. And then the fact was again hammered home by Thom.
And...being anal...and somewhat enjoying my round form...i not only double but triple check the mechanism. And as can be
witnessed by my partner thom....i have gone forward with the triple check on back to back occassions against his words....and he
has let me go the extra distance to quell my gut feelings. On both back to back recent triple checks i the younger less wiser hunter
have not only proved to my partner he didn't put ample time into looking first a few times...but literally saved our hides.

As far as the arsenic dust....its a partial true but not correct as stated. Although i have yet to get that far....and if one ever does....carry
a pair of rubber gloves and a pair of leather gloves to go over the rubber gloves. The arsenic present is a left over by product of the crude
in the middle of no where refining process. This info comes from one of a trusted few i need no more than a few fingers to count whom was
present for just such an event and witnessed this first hand.

And Mike..aka Gollum. You and i have had years of back and forth so i have a good deal of my trust placed in you. And....i do realize you have your
doubts on the matter as posted on several different boards over the years. So that being said and back to the trust issue....i extend to you an invite to
colorado when you have the time and i will personally take you on a tour if you will of several fine examples of said DT's any time you should feel
inclined to come see in the stone (flesh) as you will.

For the rest of you...all i can say is i had my doubts in the beginning as well. That is until i stared a few in the face...and one didn't wholely reveal its
mechanism until i was 5 foot down....talk about gettin the shivers and the color draining from ones face once you realize what you almost did.
I am not here to make you believe....or argue the point. So don't bother....as the effort will be more or less like farting in the wind...maybe good for
a chuckle or two...but thats about it. So all you fellow hunters....keep on hunting and do like i do....i read...and read....research and research. I keep little
lessons like this in the back of my head while in the field if i suspect the source is trustable...and when the words and the stones in the field run together
more than ONCE to debunk an idea or notion...i become a believer. And by this method i have learned and seen things i never thought possable.

DW

 

[gollum]

Realistically….because these death traps seem to be scattered all over the place, accessible to the general public…has there been any Government, University or other serious research done? Surely treasure hunters are not the only ones who know about these alleged death traps, are they?

Secondly…why abandon a working mine and exert the huge amount of energy to maneuver rocks and boulders about whilst looking for another mine to work…when that mine is producing in the first place?

Thirdly….why cache when you can send the stuff back on the same supply-line that is bringing your rations, and other necessities in the first place?

Sorry Mike, but logically speaking…it makes no sense to fabricate these traps. Abandon a working mine…hide (cache) items instead of sending it back to Spain all sound like great excuses to treasure hunt, and make the Spaniards sound like nimrods.

They have used arsenic powder to coat the bars of gold and silver. Also thickly dropped on the floor of the mine/cave. So that when you are kicking up the dust, you are breathing in your last breaths. The arsenic on the bars will get all over your hands, and when you rub your eyes, nose, or mouth, you will die shortly after as well.

Good grief

SWR,

Here is what you asked about:

1. There has been some, but not much, and most of what was done was done privately (that I know of). The reason, is that (and I can only speak for one person), the copies of the original cedulas, redoteros, and maps were bought at GREAT expense. In this, I am talking about Charles Kenworthy. He was a real estate multimillionaire in the 1970s. He spent untold amounts of money getting those copies. He was a treasure hunter, and not a philanthropist. After he died of cancer, those papers went to his son Charles "Tiger" Kenworthy. What he is doing with them, nobody knows. He is not possessed of a philanthropical nature either (he is an attorney). He doesn't share any information with anyone I currently know. I know friends and partners of his late father.

2. The reason to abandon a working mine is that, there were no cities, towns, or pueblos out here, other than the Missions at San Diego and Monterrey. All the workers, supplies for the season, and everything they needed was brought at one time. They used candles for light in the mines. They brought sheep with them, to use the mutton for food, and the fat for making candles. The mining party would be absolutely self sufficient. Due to the heat, distance from home (supplies, etc), they could only work a few months out of the year. If they had a rich mine, it would take many mining seasons to extract all the high grade ore. The mines would be booby trapped for the time they were away.

Because there was no resupply, they had to store all the rough smelted dore (door-ee) bars on site. Due to bandits and hostile Indians, they would construct a vault on site, to store the dore bars. Usually, the vault was only a 6X6X6 foot rock lined chamber, with a large flat capstone. This would be covered by a foot or two of sand, dirt, and rocks.

The King's Fifth (Quint), would NEVER be left. If they didn't have the King's Share at the end of the mining season, dire consequences. The King had inspectors, who would verify the amount of gold/silver/copper/etc the mining party returned with. That number would be compared with the amount given as the King's Share, to make sure everything was copascetic.

3. See answer #2.

Sorry again SWR. If you took a little more time to research the subject, you would understand the reasonings for everything you asked. This sounds a lot like when you tried to argue that the Feds wouldn't come after somebody who found a treasure (remember IRS Form 8300?). If you would have researched that subject a little better, you wouldn't have embarrassed yourself.

By saying that what the Spanish did, made them look like NIMRODS, you are again embarrassing yourself. The Spanish had a VERY well designed system of mine ownership and supervision. Not only was this the case in Nueva Espana, but for everywhere on Earth the Spanish Operated Mines and searched for treasure. That very same system worked quite well for them for several hundred years.

Sorry again SWR, but Death Traps were/are very real. Kenworthy spent a great deal of money and years researching Spanish Mining/Treasure.

Hey Doug,

As a matter of fact, arsenic was used exactly as described. What you called a byproduct of the crude smelting process was cyanide and mercury. Mercury came first, until the Spanish later learned about cyanide leaching. Arsenic was native to the gold ore body, but not necessarily a smelting leftover.

Best-Mike

 

[truckinbutch]

I don't know how any person could have defined it any better.
Thankya,Mike

 

[gollum]

You say that you have researched the subject. That's BS and you know it! Unless your idea differs greatly with what I consider research. When I use the term research, I don't mean type something in GOOGLE, and hit enter. You say that "only a select few people claim these Death Traps exist." You are wrong. What you should say is that you can only find a few people who claim that death traps exist. The greatest majority of REAL Treasure Hunters won't be posting on Forums, writing books, or advertising anything they have found out.

History isn't always what you are told it is!

Take for instance, the story about the Jesuit Treasure that is called Tayopa. There are several Jesuit Treasures supposed to be hidden from Sonora to Utah. The Jesuit Order vehemently denies that Jesuits owned or operated any mines in Pimeria Alta. One of the most famous historians of the Jesuits in the New World was Father Charles Polzer SJ (SJ being the operative abbreviation). Of all the silver and gold bars bearing Jesuit Castings (Cross and "V") he was shown, he claimed that ALL of them were fakes. Even the Smithsonian Institute has some bars in Box# 23 of Record Unit# 358 labeled Kino Silver Pieces. Father Polzer ruthlessly attacked people who claimed the Jesuits had hidden treasure and lost mines. He wrote books, newspaper, and magazine articles about the subject.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT.......................................

When an acquaintance of his told him about someone he knew who had found the location of Tayopa, Father Polzer IMMEDIATELY flew down to Mexico and tried to claim the place in question for the church! He raised such a stink, he was asked to leave Mexico. Like I have said SOOOOOOO many time before, I don't give two spits what somebody says. I look at how they act (what they do). Polzer said a LOT of things, but when you got to where the rubber hit the road, his actions told a COMPLETELY different story.

One thing you may not understand SWR, is that Archaeologists HATE Treasure Hunters (for the most part). The very last thing they would want to do is prove beyond doubt that there are caches of gold and silver still hidden out there. That would cause more people to go out and possible destroy archaeological sites looking for lost treasures. They are 100% correct! There are very few responsible treasure hunters. I can tell you that if you cared to research the subject yourself, and by research, I mean take your butt to the Archivios de los Indios in Mexico City, The Spanish Royal Archives in Seville, the Jesuit Curia and the Archivium Segretto Vaticano (Vatican Archives) in Rome, all the information you ask about is available. What Kenworthy got from those archives were copies. That means the originals are still there. You may have to spend a good deal of money, but they are still available. You may even be able to find some of what you ask about at the old Palace of the Governors in Santa Fe, New Mexico, but most of the official government papers of the time were destroyed during a Pima Revolt when the Indians occupied the building.

NOW, I finally understand why you keep making posts like this! You don't have that little thing that most people have. When a normal human being would be embarrassed, you don't seem to have that gene. You rail against a subject about which you obviously have very little or (as in this case) no knowledge. You make smarta$$ed remarks about something that is well known among archaeologists, historians, and treasure hunters (like the fact that they could only work a mine a few months out of the year, there was no resupply,etc) and from YOUR point of view the Spanish were NIMRODS for doing it a certain way. I guess you know better than 300 years of Spanish Occupation and exploitation of the New World. Why don't we just take SWR's word for it, that the years of research and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent to get copies of long lost original documents were all BS. What has SWR EVER done (except try and crap on things he doesn't understand)? Come on SWR! Show us some pictures of the things you have done. Maybe you can quote us from some of your voluminous library, that allows you the comfort of denying everything. Maybe you can tell us of your extensive knowledge of Colonial Spanish History in Nueva Espana. I know a LOT about Spanish in the New World. I have spent the better part of the last ten years studying the subject obsessively. I'll let you in on a little secret:

I had always heard about Spanish/Jesuit Treasures, Death Traps, Lost Mines and the like. I was skeptical at first, because I realized that I didn't really know anything about the subject other than what I knew from Treasure Books and the Indiana Jones Movies. It was easy to be skeptical with only that information. I started studying written history. My favorite author was Herbert Eugene Bolton. He wrote most of the books now in use in colleges regarding Colonial Spanish Life and Jesuit Missions. He also translated the diaries of Padre Eusebbio Kino. I found the translated diary of Capt. Juan Mateo Manje (Luz de Tierra Incognita). I read them with an eye for trying to find small or large things to prove or disprove the idea of Jesuit Mining. Even though the Jesuit Order states emphatically that they did no mining, RIGHT THERE, in Capt. Manje's diary, he states that he and Padre Kino visited Jesuit Mines. One little sentence disproves 250 years of denials. I started reading more history books, translations of expedition diaries, notes, etc. I started finding little things all over the place in books that had NOTHING to do with Treasure Hunting. I then started comparing "FACTS" from the Treasure Hunting Books with what I had learned about known history. While it is an ongoing process, I had formed several opinions based on what I had read.

You cavalierly use the terms "wishful treasure hunting" and "mythical treasures". That alone tells me that you have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. If you REALLY took the time to research the subject, you might run into people who have found things that will allow them to never work again. I obviously won't give you REAL names for most, but I can give you a little about one:

A gentleman named "Ron" in Southern Arizona (between Tucson and Nogales) found somewhere around 130-150 pounds of gold bars. These pics appeared in a three part article in TREASURE Magazine in 1986. I guess he spent the million dollars or so to buy the gold to perpetrate a hoax?

.....and this (partial) trail of rock carvings and monuments:

to this:

and this:

.............but that's all fantasy, right? That old mine is just in my head. You're more than welcome to believe what you want, and no, you may not be embarrassed......................................................

<p>BUT YOU SHOULD BE!

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

SWR,

You have, once again, proven yourself to be unable to see things that are shown to you via proof of photographs and known history.

I think it is quite obvious to everyone here who is full of BS.

While I provide factual evidence via pictures, all you can do is whine and pule like you have done every other time I have shown you to be exactly what you are. A little person who thinks they know everything, and who needs to step on people to make themselves feel important. What's the matter SWR? Not enough hugs when you were a kid? Are you a failed treasure hunter, who thinks that just because you didn't have the brainpower or wherewithall to do anything of any importance, that you should try and belittle the contributions others make?

You call what I laid out for you in simple to understand terminology as Pseudobabble? Maybe if you spent a little more time reading and hiking trails, you might look a little less ignorant. You state that the Spanish Miners that operated mines in Pimeria Alta HAD resupply trains. Are you really that stupid? Spanish Miners even as close as the Bradshaw Mountains weren't resupplied during mining season. The only miners that were resupplied were the ones that operated near missions and populated areas. The mines that were far to the North and West were only able to be worked a few months out of the year.

Like I said, you are welcome to believe what you will. I won't try to convince you of anything. Liie every other time you thought you knew what you were talking about, you are wrong. I have proven it with pictures.

Best-Mike

 

[Old Dog]

Great pictures Mike,

I don't know what more (as far as proof) a guy could want.
as far as it goes I won't say another word to the guy.
I think from now on I'll just use the options buttons.

Thom

 

[Old Dog]

I really think you need to get out and see the world.
this hobby has become a doldrum to you.
all I can see is you defaming even proven sites that were offered at your bidding.

You never post more than criticism, never go on a hunt of your own.
You never post a find of any kind.
why do you hate these folks so much. what has their hobby done to hurt you?

Even if you just can't fathom a belief in what they are doing ...
can't you just wish them well and shut up?
Thom

 

[MesaBuddy]

Thats HillBilly Bob Brewer standing under one east of my house out in the Supers , I have a couple of old film pixs of some from years ago , perhaps I'll put them up
I like the way you think SWR , others will follow your way of thinking , and leave more for those of us that know better ,
MB

 

[gollum]

Come on everybody! SWR (like I said so many times before) has the right to believe absolutely anything he wants to. I just don't know what he REALLY believes.

Honestly, I think he is one of two types:

1. Gets his kicks by trying to get under people's skins by not caring about any evidence given. Just keeps disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing to get under your skin.

2. Has the obsessive need to put down others to make himself feel important.

There have been many before just like him, and there will be many that come after he is long gone from this Earth. As always, I post the information I need to post to prove how wrong he is, and have fun at watching him self destruct.

I actually agree 100% with SWR. "That is what the options buttons are for..." I don't use them, because I am not a BS'er. I don't state as fact anything I don't know for certain (unless I say so). I just have fun with it. I know history, and I know Treasure Hunting. If you asked me about Calculus or Genetic Biology, I would most likely have to refer you to someone else. If I don't know about something, I will admit as much.

Another thing I don't give much credence to is someone who won't give their real name. That is all a lot like Bill Riley in all his aliases. He would never give his real name because everybody who knew him, knew how full of BS he was/is. It's funny that all the people here that I have any amount of respect for their opinions, have no problems with giving out their names, but the people who are total jacka$$es are all anonymous. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Think that might be a clue

Best-Mike