Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

[GaBnn3]

One thing I came to believe after engaging in this hunt, is that delving into excessive detail is a morass that can suck you in, and consume one's otherwise useful time. In fact, I came to believe that such side trips in one's research can be the mark of the unsuccessful treasure hunter, who becomes an expert on irrelevant detail. For this reason, I was careful not to turn my search into a thesis on the flora and fauna of the Catskill woods. I tried to think like Dutch, who hadn't a clue on such matters. However, I do recall, in the distant past of high school earth science, that trees grow from the tip, which means to me, that any trauma to the lower trunk, would not be significantly affected by the further growth of the tree. But, here we are talking about a tree, tunnel vision.

 

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[ctalmadg]

I hope you find your treasure! I was clearly adding my "2 cents" as to the carving (Actually my wife, who is a NYS ECON Officer..made the comment based on her experiences in the field)..The last thing from our mind was trying to "discredit" you. Good Luck in your endeavor.

One thing I came to believe after engaging in this hunt, is that delving into excessive detail is a morass that can suck you in, and consume one's otherwise useful time. In fact, I came to believe that such side trips in one's research can be the mark of the unsuccessful treasure hunter, who becomes an expert on irrelevant detail. For this reason, I was careful not to turn my search into a thesis on the flora and fauna of the Catskill woods. I tried to think like Dutch, who hadn't a clue on such matters. However, I do recall, in the distant past of high school earth science, that trees grow from the tip, which means to me, that any trauma to the lower trunk, would not be significantly affected by the further growth of the tree. But, here we are talking about a tree, tunnel vision.

 

[GaBnn3]

Thank you for your interest. It was my intent to share the answer I believe I have, to this enduring mystery, with the treasure hunting community. My enthusiasm, now, was, last year, intense disappointment. Sharing my experience with others is therapy for me to recover from that disappointment. I will give you a clue to share with your wife. As law abiding TH'ers, we obtained our DEP permits for this search. Schultz wanted to be sure his treasure was safe for the time he thought he would be in prison. Look on a map. You can't miss it.

 

[bobinsd]

Question...if the tree was alive in 1934, why would someone carve "1934" vertically as shown? If the tree had fallen, why would he carve into a dead tree that might soon disintegrate?

 

[GaBnn3]

Good question. Though, if anyone thinks they have come up with a new one that I haven't already considered, they're mistaken. Since I started this thread, and put forth my theory, I feel obligated to respond. That's okay, since my theory is complete, though I'm getting a little testy on this tree subject. Can anyone tell? Anybody can theorize for themselves why it is like it is. This is just the way I found it. In contrast to the recently uncovered wood, the carving is obviously aged and weathered. How anyone could suggest that the carving was made after the tree had fallen is beyond the realm of reality. It just happened to fall the way it did. During my first visit, the tree was wet, and the carving was not readily visible. Also, I believe there has been some distortion due to the growth of the tree. The numbers made with straight lines are significantly deeper than on the "3". Take note of the little notch on the top of the number "1". It goes in the opposite direction. I attribute this to the fact that it was carved while the tree was in the vertical. To have been carved in the horizontal direction, the numbers would either have been real tiny, or go around the curvature of the tree. Notice the area was carved flat, before the numbers were carved on it, to create a smoother surface. I suppose he wanted it large enough to be able to see it, years later, when he got out of prison. Further, the carving faced the direction of approach. Will anyone else with questions on this carving kindly qualify themselves with a statement on their tree carving experience. I've never done one. Thanks.
By the way, I'm always open to intelligent discussion, and will respond to credible TH'ers.

 

[JT]

I can't say that you aren't in the right spot, but I can say that tree has nothing to do with it. Pines grow fast. When they die and fall, they also lose bark fast.

Looking at the thickness of the tree, the bark, and the carving, it's a safe bet that not only was the date not carved in the tree in 1934, but the tree didn't even exist then. If it was old enough to be used as a marker in 1934, then its age now would be in the neighborhood of 75 years old, because it had to be big enough to carve the date on. That looks to be about a 20 to 30 year old tree. If it had fallen in the 60's or 70's at that age the bark would be gone by now. That pretty much rules it out.

 

[GaBnn3]

For those considering a search, I stand by my find, and reassert it's authenticity.

 

[JT]

GaBnn3, you may stand by your "find", and you may reassert it's authenticity, but basically, you're asserting you found a....hole. An empty one, at that.

Research is key to finding and understanding. However, the research must be complete. Looking at the size of that tree, it would not have existed in 1934. Plain and simple. The size of the tree should tell you that, and if it doesn't, the fact it still has bark on it helps shoot down your theory.

Don't believe me? Don't sit here and argue...do the research. Go out tomorrow, and cut down a similar sized pine tree.Come back this time next year, take a look at the fallen tree, and see if the bark is still on as solid as what's in the picture. Repeat yearly. Report back when the bark is sloughing off.

It doesn't matter if the tree has "1934", "X marks the spot", or "Dig here for Dutch's Dollars" marked on it. It's bogus. Someone is having fun at your expense. In fact, they probably read this board, and are rolling on the floor laughing because you can't connect the dots.

If you really and truly believe that you found the correct empty hole, then you need to find a way to prove it. If not, then all you have is....an empty hole.

 

[brhorn]

Hi Guys ,

This is the first time I have ever written anything on the TN site , despite reading about stuff on here for quite a while now.

Making a statement as to what I have known about this treasure , after spending numerous trips there in the Phoenicia , NY for
about 13 years now :

1. Much of the story appears to have been created , as that Kropmier was alive into the 1960's , at least. He was arrested in the 60's for stealing someone's welfare check and was working as a retail employee , so we can all rest assured that he did not get the Dutchman's Trove.

2. From down in the Esopus Creek valley , I can not see how anyone but the Jolly Green Giant could see both Mt. Temper and Panther Mt. from the same vantage point , if south of the Phonecia area , as that Panther Mt. is quite some distance to the West of such .

3. The weight of the alleged steel box with all of that stuff would be extremely difficult to move , even for two strong men ; in addendum , automobiles of that time , even luxury ones , did not have a tremendous amount of horsepower ; ergo , how much could be carried on a trip up there , along with two men in the vehicle ?

4. In April , in Upstate New York , which is usually still colder than a well-digger's fanny , that ground would still be hard as can be and certainly not be easy diggin's to bury much of anything , unless a very early thaw was realized. I have been born , raised and still live in Upstate New York ( love to get out and go to the warm Southwest in the Winter , though ) and it has always been as such .

5. The area was frequented by bootlegger's and mobsters for many years , and numerous treasures are probably buried in the region ; ergo, any hole found that appeared to have , at one time or another , housed a horde of treasure , could also easily had been some other treasure.

Well, I guess that's it for me on this one , as that , despite I have enjoyed looking for it , and I love the Catskills , I have other stuff to look for - stuff that is probably much easier and within the length of my cable tow . The area there is getting all bought up , and almost all of the streams of any size and surrounding areas are being bought up by NYC for their water supply , and are heavily policed by their own security force : you can't even get out of the car there anymore , except to go for a beer or spend money elsewhere in some shop. Permission is tough due to distrust and due to that the area homes are frequently seasonal.

Good Luck and I hope someone deserving finds it , if it is still out there.

 

[GaBnn3]

A local author, who wrote on this subject, told me he occasionally heard from some who claim to know where the treasure is, but who never say where, and never find a treasure. You're one more of that variety, and there's plenty out there. I'll be looking for that picture. Brhorn, you raise one of the same questions I did about the April time frame. I'm from the northeast and understand what a Catskill winter can hold. However, I did not pursue research on a possible early Spring that year, because it did not affect the other known facts. That is the one point in Schurmacher's account, which you obviously have read, that I could not match, though I have reconciled it. Schurmacher wrote his account decades after the actual event. The recollections of those who placed it in around April were probably wrong. Upon finding the site, it no longer was of consequence, except to those whose have no posts of their own, and need to steal someone else's story. This being the case, Schurmacher's account was right on. It is the authoritative source for this story. But, you now have the ending also, thanks to me.

 

[JT]

Well, Einstein, congratulations. You are the proud discoverer of...a hole. An empty one, at that. It's too bad that "Current Affair" couldn't do your tv special. They could have drawn tens of viewers to watch them film...a hole.

Hey, Geraldo did that special years ago on Capone's secret room. Maybe you can get him to do a three hour special on...your hole.

I know where some empty holes are. In fact, if you want, I'll dig some extra ones. You can tell people they contained KGC treasure, King Solomon's treasure, the Holy Grail, Blackbeards treasure, or Noah's Ark. I'll give you full credit.

Your picture of the tree totally shoots down your theory. The fact that someone scraped bark and exposed relatively fresh wood on a tree that would have to be 75 or 80 years old, but has the size of one that is maybe 20 or 30 years old at the most, proves you wrong. Hardwoods can keep bark on them long after dying. Pines don't. For that tree to be genuine, it would have had to have died in the 1960's. You would not be able to scrape bark to get to fresh wood. Commonsense goes a long ways.

Try searching for Bigfoot, leprechuans, or little green men from Mars. You'll have better luck finding them than you will convincing people the latrine site you found used to hold treasure.

 

[GaBnn3]

brhorn, If you're still interested here is more. My lunch break was too short to finish my response yesterday. You are quite correct that the story has been diluted. I assumed you have the Schurmacher account of this story, since you made reference to the April time frame. However, upon reviewing, Conway's account mentions April also. If you have Conway's book, check the bibliography. It lists the Schurmacher account as reference. Upon dissecting Conway's account, you would find that it is, to oversimiplify, Schurmacher's account, plus local rumors. After the treasure story became publicized in late 1934, locals began to recall chance encounters with Dutch, that they then attached significance to, convincing themselves that it was connected to the treasure story. Then add one psychic for good measure, and you have Conway's account, not to criticize his work. He was provided the info, so what else could he do but write it up. The addition of the local rumors, plus the psychic, is how a factual account gets demoted to the realm of legend. Research is not simply the discovery of unknown info, but can very well be, as in this case, sifting through the irrelevant info. If you think that Schultz was the type to have let locals have a clue where he hid his personal fortune, that he intended to rely on for the future, you have misjudged him. The locals may have had an audience, as they told their tales, and maybe got a few free drinks at the local tavern, but you can be sure their stories were worth nothing more. The proof is in the fact that no local ever found it. You can write off the psychic also. If you take Conway's book and winnow out the chaff, you are left with the Schurmacher account. So, if you want to follow up with this, you need the Schurmacher account. Take this post for example, I reported my discovery, which coincided with all known facts, in the exact kind of spot Schultz would have looked for, and found the carving he used to mark his spot, which I posted. As an object lesson, look what happened here. Then, as the locals did with the Schultz story, along comes a couple , who have never been there, and attempt to debunk my findings, insulting me both personally and as a TH'er. If you appreciate the result of careful, methodical research, here it is. I'm stubborn but not pig-headed. I've simply been there. The tree was the marker, carved by Schultz' own hand, and I've provided the info to my peers, who, I hope, appreciate it, even if they don't accept it.

 

[GaBnn3]

As there are few treasures here in the northeast, there are undoubtedly many who would still seek this fortune. I started this thread for them. There is no way to prove that a gangster, who intended to keep it secret, recovered this treasure. In spite of what is posted above, I have continued to provide my maps to thoughtful, intelligent people, who convince me that they will share the responsibility of protecting this site. Some vicious clowns have pretended to read trees, and concocted an elaborate conspiracy theory, using my very own pic. However, I believe the moderator has toned down their static, at least I hope so. Perhaps, in the subconscious minds of some, they resent to notion that certain treasures are no longer there waiting for them. Who knows? Though, I got a little testy, I've tried to be modest and informative. However, let me put modesty aside. I am the only one to have solved this puzzle, and am proud of it. brhorn, before your next trip to Phoenicia, PM me. I still go up there once in a while. If you want to see for yourself perhaps I can arrange it. There is one more tidbit of info that may be available at a local business. My final trip up there will be to look for that, and we could get a pizza and beer at the same time. The info on the map indicated that near the turnoff, from Rt 28, there is a structure that Lulu labeled as "Lodging for Hunters and Fishermen". That business still stands, and is open for business. The last detail will be to approach them and see if they found any such sign on the premises, when they bought it.

 

[tvanwho]

Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure,show us the MAP?

Can somebody please post the MAP of this treasure site? I'd like to see if my map dowsed location was on the money or not?
Thanks-

Tom,in Illinois

 

[GaBnn3]

Tom, e-mail me at my web address. The maps are my own, I created them during my search, and, after finding the spot, the maps now show right where it was. Dowsing is somewhat mysterious to me. With the treasure gone, you still believe you can find where it was? There's a significant landmark, which is probably very obvious to a student of these posts, who has done background research. Let me know if you hit it, and what town it's in. We can talk about the maps.

 

[ZumbroKid]

Nice story on the treasure location. Thanks for posting it.

 

[GaBnn3]

You're quite welcome Zumbro. I was getting worried that nobody was reading this.

 

[ZumbroKid]

You're quite welcome Zumbro. I was getting worried that nobody was reading this.

I use to be the rudest one here when i felt like it. But the moderators took me in back of the wood shed with a switch and i straightened right up. Best to listen to them.

 

[JT]

Some vicious clowns have pretended to read trees, and concocted an elaborate conspiracy theory, using my very own pic.

I assume you're including me in this description, and if so, it's an insult to clowns everywhere.

Personally, I don't give a rip whether you found the supposed treasure or not. I'm not looking for it, nor will I ever be looking for it, so there is no basis for "an elaborate conspiracy theory".

When it comes to looking for treasure, or anything valuable, very few people actually do the research, and find what they are looking for. There are far more people out there trying to steal it from the people that found it, or are trying to scam money out of gullible suckers in the belief that they will suddenly be rich.

I don't know if you fall into any of the above categories, but when someone posts a picture of a 20 or 30 year old tree that has alledgedly been inscribed with a date 70 years ago, it sounds off the bull#### alarm in my brain. It's a little different with you, because you don't claim to know where treasure is....you just seem to be using an awfully excessive amount of energy to want people to believe you found an empty hole where "something" may or may not have been. In essence, my gut hunch tells me you're up to something. My gut hunches don't miss very often.

People are free to have their own opinions. In your opinion, your empty hole used to hold something valuable. To back up youir opinion, you present evidence to support your claim.

My opinion, your evidence is flawed at best, bogus at worst. Your picture shows a tree too small to be that old, and the fact that the bark is intact and fresh wood is under it shoots down the chance of it being dead for a couple of decades.

If your evidence is flawed, then don't feel bad, because many people have relied on bad evidence to try and prove something.

If your evidence is bogus, then the saying "there's a sucker born every minute" applies.

I've seen too many people present bogus info in an attempt to scam innocent, gullible people out of money. Some con artists use proof of the "possibility" of finding something to establish credibility to reel in starry-eyed investors.

I hope you're just relying on flawed info.

 

[GaBnn3]

Until such time as someone else finds that concusive proof, they claim I missed, I'm going to rightfully consider myself the resident expert on the Schultz cache. It would be a much more effective technique to explain how you did it in finding your treasure site, rather than just bashing my story. Yet, I know there's reasons for that. Some think an awful lot of themselves in building their elaborate theories based on one pic, without having been there. I've been around enough to know when someone is BS'ing me. You can wrap a BS theory in flowery phrases and explain the rationale for it, using articultate and skillful use of the English language. But, it's still BS. My attitude annoys some. Oh well! The Schultz story is finished, unless the talkers are more than talk. And yeah, you're one of those clowns.