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Thread: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

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  1. #16
    us
    Jun 2005
    511
    4 times

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    Quote Originally Posted by GaBnn3
    it's beautiful country and a walk through the woods is never wasted time.
    So PLEASE meet Amona in a neutral place, like a Denny's parking lot, and make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN it's not still there, and let us know!
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  2. #17

    Dec 2004
    164
    38 times

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    I posted the answer to a long-standing mystery for the benefit of others who may have sought out this treasure. The carving is provided as evidence in support of my theory. Doubters have interpreted this evidence as somehow being confusing. The specific tactic used by them to portray confusion, is to focus solely on the photo, without considering the other information I shared about the site. The reason for this is simple. They have not been there. Take note that those, with whom I shared my maps, and been to the site, have not posted any doubts. This makes the critics.....what? The tendency to dwell on excessive detail is a result of the desparate desire to create information where none exists. In my search, I was careful to temper my desparation with common sense. As a result, I found what I found. Type of pine tree, how may rings on the trunk, etc; all questions that Schultz would not have been able to answer himself, and, therefore, were not needed to find this treasure spot. Considering all that I said about this spot, it is the perfect spot to cache a treasure. The challenge, then, is for the doubters to, first, find it, then dispute the entire site. But, you will have to be at least as sharp as Dutch and I to find it. Good luck!
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  3. #18

    Dec 2004
    164
    38 times

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    I have to chuckle at myself. I let some critics get my goat. But, when you believe in yourself, enthusiasm is normal. No one appreciates this forum more than me, and I've never seen anyone get out of hand. Since, no one knows me here, some may visialize an incompetent oaf, wandering through the woods while looking at the sky, who accidentally tripped over the log and fell in the hole, only to raise his head and see the carving. There was the suggestion that I may have found the site, but been too goofy to thorougly search it, and be absolutely certain it isn't there. You're entitled to whatever image you conger up. However, as to whether or not it was stashed in the Phoenicia area, let me point out that there were eight witnesses, at the Bridgeport, CT headquarters who witnesses Schultz and Lulu pack the box, then load it into the Packard and head toward Phoenicia. Also, Schultz, while in a feverish delirium, on his death bed, free from all conscious motivations, referred to his treasure being in the Phoenicia area. Then there was the map showing the Phoenicia area, which was of sufficient import to entice a rival to hit a Schultz lieutenant in order to obtain it. Those that cling to the other theories must deliberately deny these points, and are simply engaging in flights of fancy, such as the Swiss bank theory, no matter how nice they may sound. For a treasure site that the owner wanted to keep secret, there was an abundance of information on this one. I wanted to find it, not engage in theoretical discussion, so I stuck to the evidence. There is specifically no evidence to support the other theories. I doubt I'll ever find a treasure preceeded by so much info. However, the usefulness of that info was limited. It described the spot, vaguely, but, not how to get there. Trying to find the site, based on the description of it, was an impossible task, due to the incredible vastness of the Catskill woods. But, it would be useful in confirming a suspected area. So, I put the info on the back burner, and created my own psychological profile of Schultz, the pressure he was under (he was human too), and his motivations. Phoenicia was an area he was familiar with, away from the danger and competition of the city, where he had fond memories that he took comfort in. The treasure was to give him comfort while in prison. Further, I concluded, he was likely to have stashed it where it was easy to get to. Yes, easy, as befitting one who chose the easy road in life. So, I searched for a spot I would have wanted, if I was in his shoes. I found such a spot, and, lo and behold, it matched everything. In fact, Schultz was (at the time) able to drive his car within 25 yards of the hole. It was, after all, a heavy box. The year carved into the tree is most compelling evidence, since that was the year he turned himself in to authorities, following his 18 month hiatus. The weathering of the wood plainly show it was made decades ago, clearly not a recent creation. Anyone who would pretend to have an understanding of the dynamics of wood carvings over time, that contradicts this compelling evidence, has issues outside my expertice. However, the marker is not as important as the location. It doesn't matter if it was marked with a date, an "X", or a pile of rocks. And, don't forget, he needed a spot that would remain undisturbed. This spot has it all. A cursory look at the other theories show them to be empty vacuums, without any evidence whatever. As for the supposition that it may have washed into the Ashokan Reservoir, there are among us those who don't understand human communication skills. This location is definately along the banks of the Esopus, as the map indicated. Anyone who thought that meant that a clever gangster like Schultz placed a metal box in a creek bed that overflows every Spring is simply an idiot. So, one must be careful what camp one places oneself in. As for proof, it doesn't get any clearer than this, when the treasure is gone. This was simply how Schultz did it. That's all folks.
    DiggerGal and Honest Samuel like this.

  4. #19
    Floater

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    I have to chuckle at myself. I let some critics get my goat. But, when you believe in yourself, enthusiasm is normal. No one appreciates this forum more than me, and I've never seen anyone get out of hand.
    Well GaBnn3 I appreciate your patience and I almost feel like a moderator on this thread. I do believe you have presented the Evidence that you are willing to post on line and since you did give this info to some others privately that contained more info only to find the site you found vandalised I don't blame you for not divulging more here. I guess this is the nature of the Treasure Hunter to find and get all the clues and then exhaust them until they pan out or don't. It is too bad some people you placed your trust in would go to the lengths they have to discredit you when in fact they all seem to know the theory's of where the treasure might be. Why don't they go and find it themselves or if they are here at least make as generous a contribution to this thread and discuss there own ideas and research. SWR is the only one I have seen at least take the time to add some of the other theory's to the subject and to where the money could have gone. If any one else has some info then please bring it forward so it can be discussed. I guess the point is don't criticize the statements here unless you have proof that they are wrong. Disagreeing with the whole notion is fine but to challenge the credible evidence here without your own evidence to the Contrary is a little misguided. Thanks again G. Great subject and as always a good read. HH
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  5. #20
    SASQUASH

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    I have Sean tress that have been cut down in 1890's the markings are still there so I can see how this 1930's markings could still be read. Hay floater you would make a great Moderator been a few sense we have swapped post's. SAS <><
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  6. #21

    Dec 2004
    164
    38 times

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    One thing I came to believe after engaging in this hunt, is that delving into excessive detail is a morass that can suck you in, and consume one's otherwise useful time. In fact, I came to believe that such side trips in one's research can be the mark of the unsuccessful treasure hunter, who becomes an expert on irrelevant detail. For this reason, I was careful not to turn my search into a thesis on the flora and fauna of the Catskill woods. I tried to think like Dutch, who hadn't a clue on such matters. However, I do recall, in the distant past of high school earth science, that trees grow from the tip, which means to me, that any trauma to the lower trunk, would not be significantly affected by the further growth of the tree. But, here we are talking about a tree, tunnel vision.
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  7. #22
    us
    Historian

    Jul 2003
    Honeoye Falls, NY (Fingerlakes Area)
    White / Fisher / DJI Cellar Hole Detector
    346
    156 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    I hope you find your treasure! I was clearly adding my "2 cents" as to the carving (Actually my wife, who is a NYS ECON Officer..made the comment based on her experiences in the field)..The last thing from our mind was trying to "discredit" you. Good Luck in your endeavor.


    Quote Originally Posted by GaBnn3
    One thing I came to believe after engaging in this hunt, is that delving into excessive detail is a morass that can suck you in, and consume one's otherwise useful time. In fact, I came to believe that such side trips in one's research can be the mark of the unsuccessful treasure hunter, who becomes an expert on irrelevant detail. For this reason, I was careful not to turn my search into a thesis on the flora and fauna of the Catskill woods. I tried to think like Dutch, who hadn't a clue on such matters. However, I do recall, in the distant past of high school earth science, that trees grow from the tip, which means to me, that any trauma to the lower trunk, would not be significantly affected by the further growth of the tree. But, here we are talking about a tree, tunnel vision.
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  8. #23

    Dec 2004
    164
    38 times

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    Thank you for your interest. It was my intent to share the answer I believe I have, to this enduring mystery, with the treasure hunting community. My enthusiasm, now, was, last year, intense disappointment. Sharing my experience with others is therapy for me to recover from that disappointment. I will give you a clue to share with your wife. As law abiding TH'ers, we obtained our DEP permits for this search. Schultz wanted to be sure his treasure was safe for the time he thought he would be in prison. Look on a map. You can't miss it.
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  9. #24
    us
    TEA...taxed enough already

    Oct 2005
    San Diego California
    Bounty Hunter
    314
    60 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    Question...if the tree was alive in 1934, why would someone carve "1934" vertically as shown? If the tree had fallen, why would he carve into a dead tree that might soon disintegrate?
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  10. #25

    Dec 2004
    164
    38 times

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    Good question. Though, if anyone thinks they have come up with a new one that I haven't already considered, they're mistaken. Since I started this thread, and put forth my theory, I feel obligated to respond. That's okay, since my theory is complete, though I'm getting a little testy on this tree subject. Can anyone tell? Anybody can theorize for themselves why it is like it is. This is just the way I found it. In contrast to the recently uncovered wood, the carving is obviously aged and weathered. How anyone could suggest that the carving was made after the tree had fallen is beyond the realm of reality. It just happened to fall the way it did. During my first visit, the tree was wet, and the carving was not readily visible. Also, I believe there has been some distortion due to the growth of the tree. The numbers made with straight lines are significantly deeper than on the "3". Take note of the little notch on the top of the number "1". It goes in the opposite direction. I attribute this to the fact that it was carved while the tree was in the vertical. To have been carved in the horizontal direction, the numbers would either have been real tiny, or go around the curvature of the tree. Notice the area was carved flat, before the numbers were carved on it, to create a smoother surface. I suppose he wanted it large enough to be able to see it, years later, when he got out of prison. Further, the carving faced the direction of approach. Will anyone else with questions on this carving kindly qualify themselves with a statement on their tree carving experience. I've never done one. Thanks.
    By the way, I'm always open to intelligent discussion, and will respond to credible TH'ers.
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  11. #26
    JT
    JT is offline

    Mar 2005
    Goose Creek, South Carolina
    175
    22 times

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    I can't say that you aren't in the right spot, but I can say that tree has nothing to do with it. Pines grow fast. When they die and fall, they also lose bark fast.

    Looking at the thickness of the tree, the bark, and the carving, it's a safe bet that not only was the date not carved in the tree in 1934, but the tree didn't even exist then. If it was old enough to be used as a marker in 1934, then its age now would be in the neighborhood of 75 years old, because it had to be big enough to carve the date on. That looks to be about a 20 to 30 year old tree. If it had fallen in the 60's or 70's at that age the bark would be gone by now. That pretty much rules it out.
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  12. #27

    Dec 2004
    164
    38 times

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    For those considering a search, I stand by my find, and reassert it's authenticity.
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  13. #28
    JT
    JT is offline

    Mar 2005
    Goose Creek, South Carolina
    175
    22 times

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    GaBnn3, you may stand by your "find", and you may reassert it's authenticity, but basically, you're asserting you found a....hole. An empty one, at that.

    Research is key to finding and understanding. However, the research must be complete. Looking at the size of that tree, it would not have existed in 1934. Plain and simple. The size of the tree should tell you that, and if it doesn't, the fact it still has bark on it helps shoot down your theory.

    Don't believe me? Don't sit here and argue...do the research. Go out tomorrow, and cut down a similar sized pine tree.Come back this time next year, take a look at the fallen tree, and see if the bark is still on as solid as what's in the picture. Repeat yearly. Report back when the bark is sloughing off.

    It doesn't matter if the tree has "1934", "X marks the spot", or "Dig here for Dutch's Dollars" marked on it. It's bogus. Someone is having fun at your expense. In fact, they probably read this board, and are rolling on the floor laughing because you can't connect the dots.

    If you really and truly believe that you found the correct empty hole, then you need to find a way to prove it. If not, then all you have is....an empty hole.
    Honest Samuel likes this.

  14. #29
    brhorn

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    Hi Guys ,

    This is the first time I have ever written anything on the TN site , despite reading about stuff on here for quite a while now.

    Making a statement as to what I have known about this treasure , after spending numerous trips there in the Phoenicia , NY for
    about 13 years now :

    1. Much of the story appears to have been created , as that Kropmier was alive into the 1960's , at least. He was arrested in the 60's for stealing someone's welfare check and was working as a retail employee , so we can all rest assured that he did not get the Dutchman's Trove.

    2. From down in the Esopus Creek valley , I can not see how anyone but the Jolly Green Giant could see both Mt. Temper and Panther Mt. from the same vantage point , if south of the Phonecia area , as that Panther Mt. is quite some distance to the West of such .

    3. The weight of the alleged steel box with all of that stuff would be extremely difficult to move , even for two strong men ; in addendum , automobiles of that time , even luxury ones , did not have a tremendous amount of horsepower ; ergo , how much could be carried on a trip up there , along with two men in the vehicle ?

    4. In April , in Upstate New York , which is usually still colder than a well-digger's fanny , that ground would still be hard as can be and certainly not be easy diggin's to bury much of anything , unless a very early thaw was realized. I have been born , raised and still live in Upstate New York ( love to get out and go to the warm Southwest in the Winter , though ) and it has always been as such .

    5. The area was frequented by bootlegger's and mobsters for many years , and numerous treasures are probably buried in the region ; ergo, any hole found that appeared to have , at one time or another , housed a horde of treasure , could also easily had been some other treasure.

    Well, I guess that's it for me on this one , as that , despite I have enjoyed looking for it , and I love the Catskills , I have other stuff to look for - stuff that is probably much easier and within the length of my cable tow . The area there is getting all bought up , and almost all of the streams of any size and surrounding areas are being bought up by NYC for their water supply , and are heavily policed by their own security force : you can't even get out of the car there anymore , except to go for a beer or spend money elsewhere in some shop. Permission is tough due to distrust and due to that the area homes are frequently seasonal.

    Good Luck and I hope someone deserving finds it , if it is still out there.

    Honest Samuel likes this.

  15. #30

    Dec 2004
    164
    38 times

    Re: Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

    A local author, who wrote on this subject, told me he occasionally heard from some who claim to know where the treasure is, but who never say where, and never find a treasure. You're one more of that variety, and there's plenty out there. I'll be looking for that picture. Brhorn, you raise one of the same questions I did about the April time frame. I'm from the northeast and understand what a Catskill winter can hold. However, I did not pursue research on a possible early Spring that year, because it did not affect the other known facts. That is the one point in Schurmacher's account, which you obviously have read, that I could not match, though I have reconciled it. Schurmacher wrote his account decades after the actual event. The recollections of those who placed it in around April were probably wrong. Upon finding the site, it no longer was of consequence, except to those whose have no posts of their own, and need to steal someone else's story. This being the case, Schurmacher's account was right on. It is the authoritative source for this story. But, you now have the ending also, thanks to me.
    Honest Samuel likes this.

 

 
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