Dutch Schultz Catskill Treasure

[GaBnn3]

I found the original cache site after a 3 year, part time, search. The large tree now growing out of the hole suggests it was recovered decades ago. My theory is that Shapiro recovered it, with the aid of the map, after Schultz was killed. The cache site exactly matches the known info on the map. One of the trees that marked the burial site, had the carving "1934" in it, which is the year the iron box was buried.

 

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[bergie]

Hey, that's cool even finding the site. I expect many of these well known caches people are searching for have already been found and they are wasting their time. Where do you live? I live near the Catskills and search with True_Metal, who also lives in the Hudson Valley.

 

[GaBnn3]

I live in W. Mass. It took me a couple of hours each way everytime I went out there. So, I only went there about 7 or 8 times. The visits helped me excluded some of the local theories on the treasure. But, I actually spotted the area of interest on a topo map, while I was home. I think we got shortchanged here in the Northeast. There aren't a lot of treasures up this way. Maybe we can share a search sometime, since you live up this way too.

 

[alleykid]

GaBnnthree, My first search for the 7.4 was in 1962.Since then I have warn out One wife ,7 partners,4 dogs ,12 metal detectors and 4 automobiles. I have consulted with people that claimed to have known "Arther"', Seers of all types and have used a lot of strange locating devices to no avail.
I have even produced a audio tape and annotated map because I gathered so much information.

Just a tip--- If holes were any indication of the box being found, found there are a hundred holes with and with out trees in the area . there are also two different areas (about 10 Miles apart) that two factions of hunters promote as the area of the hiding place . Also some people believe that he was shot on the same day he buried the box. My best of luck to you and if you run into a tall ugly guy around Phoenicia,that will be me so don't shoot,alleykid

 

[GaBnn3]

Alleykid,
I understand how hard it is to give up on a search. No one was more obsessed than me. Now all I have is a story of a hole in the ground. But, it's not just the hole that has convinced me. It's the carving on the tree, or the fact that the location exactly matched the known info on the map, but, more importantly, it's where he should have buried it. If it makes you feel good to keep looking, then keep looking. But, I know in my heart that is was recovered long ago. There will always be some doubt for those who choose to keep looking. But, I try to be realistic because some day I really want to find the big one, and don't want to waste my time. I created maps of my own during the search. I'd be happy to e-mail you copies. I have no secrets about that search now. When you visit the spot, you will kick yourself in the butt for not looking there yourself. Too bad about your wife. TH'ers are special people who believe in dreams. If you want those maps e-mal me at [email protected].

 

[GaBnn3]

Dear Fellow TH'ers:
? ? ?I returned to the spot to view it this weekend in preparation for a TV show about the Schultz treasure. I was disappointed to see the bark peeled off the tree with the carving. I assume that when someone approaches me through this site, that they are the quality of individual that I have come to expect here, and feel safe sending the maps. Those who don't have a code of ethics, and have my maps, please be respectful as this is a bit of history, and physical evidence of the unique behavior of one of the nations most powerful gansters. I, at least for the time being, will refrain from sending any more maps. I know you understand. I tried to post a pic of the carving, with this message, for all to see, but the file size is too big. If anyone wants a pic of the carving, I'd be happy to send it, but the spot should be preserved. Thanks.

GB

 

[Floater]

GaBNN I wouldn't be surprised to see that thing on Ebay if someone did get your map and then try to sell the carving. It is a shame even the Fact he was a gangster it is no reason for people to deface the area or souvenir hunt it for the last remaining clue. It is to bad but please keep us posted on the show and when it might aire. If you Email me the Pic I can reduce it and Post it for you . I don't need any other info .Thanks again for a great story and congrats on your search. HH

M Email is [email protected]

 

[Floater]

Gabnn Here is what you sent. I will e-mail you a copy as well. Please tell us what we are looking at here.Thanks .HH

 

[GaBnn3]

The map, drawn by Schultz' bodyguard and entrusted to his buddy, Marty, as "insurance", was reported to have an X drawn on it. Consequently, everyone expected to see an X in real life. Think about that. This site is in a pine grove, between the Esopus Creek and Rt 28, in an area that would not have been disturbed for the length of time Schultz thought he would be in prison. In fact, except for the excavation of the box, the area has not been disturbed. A landmark makes this location easily found, even by a city boy, so a map wouldn't be necessary. The burial hole is equidistant between two pines, so the box could easily be recovered. The southernmost pine, now fallen, was marked with the carving shown above. In spite of the aging of the wood, the hand carving "1934" is still visible. Schultz was indicted in Jan '33 and went on the run, until he surrendered in Nov '34. Since my last visit, someone peeled the bark off this tree. Here my son holds the hanging bark against the trunk, as I attempted to make it appear more as I first found it. This carving was probably made by Schultz, himself, while Lulu dug the hole. Schulz was found not guilty, much to everyone's surprize, but he found himself faced with further charges. So, it is unlikely he recovered the box, until his fate could be determined. The box was to be his salvation, while incarcerated. Schultz refused to comply with the syndicate, and was killed before the resolution of the additional charges. A rival, Shapiro, learned of the map, through a mutual female acquaintance, and, shortly after Schultz was shot, obtained the map during a botched hit on Marty. He then claimed that he couldn't understand the map, and gave up after a couple of tries. However, there is a prominent feature, not mentioned above that makes this location easily located. Though not mentioned in the written accounts on the map, it probably was, in fact, on the map. Therefore, I conclude that Shapiro, with the aid of the map, easily obtained the box, getting, not only, a piece of Schultz' former territory, but his personal fortune, as well. He would not have admitted obtaining it, since the gov't was nailing gangsters for criminal tax violations, and he didn't want to share with the others who took over Schultz former territory. The Liberty bonds, known to have been in the box, were undoubtedly destroyed so they couldn't be traced. As for the $1000 bills, diamonds, $20 gold coins, and other valuables they were very liquid, readily accepted in commerce, and could have provided for some lucky TH'er very well.

 

[Floater]

Thanks GaBnn3. Great Story and it appears the mystery is solved. I think your explanation is probably accurate and given the times someone is or was living a good life off of Dutch. HH

 

[Amona]

GaBnn3 said

I found the original cache site after a 3 year, part time, search. The large tree now growing out of the hole suggests it was recovered decades ago. My theory is that Shapiro recovered it, with the aid of the map, after Schultz was killed. The cache site exactly matches the known info on the map. One of the trees that marked the burial site, had the carving "1934" in it, which is the year the iron box was buried.

The fact you found a 'big' hole on that area, it doesn't means that somebody found the cache, the only accurate way that you can use to be 100% sure is the use of a 'Radar'(I got one) in order you can see with your eyes 'what's going on'.

YOU SAID "MY THEORY IS THAT MR. SHAPIRO RECOVERED IT",....you said it all, "THEORY", that's means you're not 100% sure

I have a radar that I can use over there.If you're interested to coordinate with me just let me know sending me a PM.

Thanks

Amona

 

[GaBnn3]

Thanks for the offer. But, I'm not telling anyone else where it is. The theory, you refer to, is the supposed set of facts that explain the absence of the box. Regardless of the explanation, it is still gone. As for the radar, the box was not intended to require radar in order to recover it. The only technology required would be a shovel.

 

[Amona]

Ok GaBnn3, If you insist to live the 1920's when the people used 'pick & shovel' to find a cache is you problem, I live 'today' 2005
using the today's technology in order to save time and 'maybe' don't go to the jail.

Good luck buddy!!

Amona

 

[ctalmadg]

What intrigues me is the supposed tree carving is said to be 70+ years old.. I'm curious what type of pine tree this is and what the age of the tree is? Once we know this then we can ask ourselves how big was the tree in 1934? And how 70 years would have affected the carving? I have seen carvings on trees with a age of 20-30 years and these are VERY distorted. This tree carving just has me asking a lot of questions...

The map, drawn by Schultz' bodyguard and entrusted to his buddy, Marty, as "insurance", was reported to have an X drawn on it. Consequently, everyone expected to see an X in real life. Think about that. This site is in a pine grove, between the Esopus Creek and Rt 28, in an area that would not have been disturbed for the length of time Schultz thought he would be in prison. In fact, except for the excavation of the box, the area has not been disturbed. A landmark makes this location easily found, even by a city boy, so a map wouldn't be necessary. The burial hole is equidistant between two pines, so the box could easily be recovered. The southernmost pine, now fallen, was marked with the carving shown above. In spite of the aging of the wood, the hand carving "1934" is still visible. Schultz was indicted in Jan '33 and went on the run, until he surrendered in Nov '34. Since my last visit, someone peeled the bark off this tree. Here my son holds the hanging bark against the trunk, as I attempted to make it appear more as I first found it. This carving was probably made by Schultz, himself, while Lulu dug the hole. Schulz was found not guilty, much to everyone's surprize, but he found himself faced with further charges. So, it is unlikely he recovered the box, until his fate could be determined. The box was to be his salvation, while incarcerated. Schultz refused to comply with the syndicate, and was killed. A rival learned of the map, and shortly after Schultz was shot, obtained the map during a botched hit on Marty. He then claimed that he couldn't understand the map, and gave up after a couple of tries. However, there is a feature, not mentioned above that makes this location easily located. Though not mentioned in the accounts on the map, it probably was, in fact, on the map. Therefore, I conclude that the rival, with the aid of the map, easily obtained the box, getting, not only, a piece of Schultz' former territory, but his personal fortune, as well. He would not have admitted obtaining it, since the gov't was nailing gangsters for criminal tax violations. The Liberty bonds, in the box, were undoubtedly destroyed so they couldn't be traced. As for the $1000 bills, diamonds, and $20 gold coins, they were very liquid, readily accepted in commerce, and could have provided for some lucky TH'er very well.

 

[GaBnn3]

For those interested in the possible TV episode I referred to, be advised that "A Current Affair" has not followed up with the story, in spite of apparent interest at first. I may have spoiled their intended plot with the above info, which I posted following contact with them. I suspect that they wanted a put forth a story of continuing interest, not a closed book. As for the tree carving, I found what I found and can't add more. Anyone with doubts, it's beautiful country and a walk through the woods is never wasted time.

 

[SomeGuy]

it's beautiful country and a walk through the woods is never wasted time.

So PLEASE meet Amona in a neutral place, like a Denny's parking lot, and make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN it's not still there, and let us know!

 

[GaBnn3]

I posted the answer to a long-standing mystery for the benefit of others who may have sought out this treasure. The carving is provided as evidence in support of my theory. Doubters have interpreted this evidence as somehow being confusing. The specific tactic used by them to portray confusion, is to focus solely on the photo, without considering the other information I shared about the site. The reason for this is simple. They have not been there. Take note that those, with whom I shared my maps, and been to the site, have not posted any doubts. This makes the critics.....what? The tendency to dwell on excessive detail is a result of the desparate desire to create information where none exists. In my search, I was careful to temper my desparation with common sense. As a result, I found what I found. Type of pine tree, how may rings on the trunk, etc; all questions that Schultz would not have been able to answer himself, and, therefore, were not needed to find this treasure spot. Considering all that I said about this spot, it is the perfect spot to cache a treasure. The challenge, then, is for the doubters to, first, find it, then dispute the entire site. But, you will have to be at least as sharp as Dutch and I to find it. Good luck!

 

[GaBnn3]

I have to chuckle at myself. I let some critics get my goat. But, when you believe in yourself, enthusiasm is normal. No one appreciates this forum more than me, and I've never seen anyone get out of hand. Since, no one knows me here, some may visialize an incompetent oaf, wandering through the woods while looking at the sky, who accidentally tripped over the log and fell in the hole, only to raise his head and see the carving. There was the suggestion that I may have found the site, but been too goofy to thorougly search it, and be absolutely certain it isn't there. You're entitled to whatever image you conger up. However, as to whether or not it was stashed in the Phoenicia area, let me point out that there were eight witnesses, at the Bridgeport, CT headquarters who witnesses Schultz and Lulu pack the box, then load it into the Packard and head toward Phoenicia. Also, Schultz, while in a feverish delirium, on his death bed, free from all conscious motivations, referred to his treasure being in the Phoenicia area. Then there was the map showing the Phoenicia area, which was of sufficient import to entice a rival to hit a Schultz lieutenant in order to obtain it. Those that cling to the other theories must deliberately deny these points, and are simply engaging in flights of fancy, such as the Swiss bank theory, no matter how nice they may sound. For a treasure site that the owner wanted to keep secret, there was an abundance of information on this one. I wanted to find it, not engage in theoretical discussion, so I stuck to the evidence. There is specifically no evidence to support the other theories. I doubt I'll ever find a treasure preceeded by so much info. However, the usefulness of that info was limited. It described the spot, vaguely, but, not how to get there. Trying to find the site, based on the description of it, was an impossible task, due to the incredible vastness of the Catskill woods. But, it would be useful in confirming a suspected area. So, I put the info on the back burner, and created my own psychological profile of Schultz, the pressure he was under (he was human too), and his motivations. Phoenicia was an area he was familiar with, away from the danger and competition of the city, where he had fond memories that he took comfort in. The treasure was to give him comfort while in prison. Further, I concluded, he was likely to have stashed it where it was easy to get to. Yes, easy, as befitting one who chose the easy road in life. So, I searched for a spot I would have wanted, if I was in his shoes. I found such a spot, and, lo and behold, it matched everything. In fact, Schultz was (at the time) able to drive his car within 25 yards of the hole. It was, after all, a heavy box. The year carved into the tree is most compelling evidence, since that was the year he turned himself in to authorities, following his 18 month hiatus. The weathering of the wood plainly show it was made decades ago, clearly not a recent creation. Anyone who would pretend to have an understanding of the dynamics of wood carvings over time, that contradicts this compelling evidence, has issues outside my expertice. However, the marker is not as important as the location. It doesn't matter if it was marked with a date, an "X", or a pile of rocks. And, don't forget, he needed a spot that would remain undisturbed. This spot has it all. A cursory look at the other theories show them to be empty vacuums, without any evidence whatever. As for the supposition that it may have washed into the Ashokan Reservoir, there are among us those who don't understand human communication skills. This location is definately along the banks of the Esopus, as the map indicated. Anyone who thought that meant that a clever gangster like Schultz placed a metal box in a creek bed that overflows every Spring is simply an idiot. So, one must be careful what camp one places oneself in. As for proof, it doesn't get any clearer than this, when the treasure is gone. This was simply how Schultz did it. That's all folks.

 

[Floater]

I have to chuckle at myself. I let some critics get my goat. But, when you believe in yourself, enthusiasm is normal. No one appreciates this forum more than me, and I've never seen anyone get out of hand.

Well GaBnn3 I appreciate your patience and I almost feel like a moderator on this thread. I do believe you have presented the Evidence that you are willing to post on line and since you did give this info to some others privately that contained more info only to find the site you found vandalised I don't blame you for not divulging more here. I guess this is the nature of the Treasure Hunter to find and get all the clues and then exhaust them until they pan out or don't. It is too bad some people you placed your trust in would go to the lengths they have to discredit you when in fact they all seem to know the theory's of where the treasure might be. Why don't they go and find it themselves or if they are here at least make as generous a contribution to this thread and discuss there own ideas and research. SWR is the only one I have seen at least take the time to add some of the other theory's to the subject and to where the money could have gone. If any one else has some info then please bring it forward so it can be discussed. I guess the point is don't criticize the statements here unless you have proof that they are wrong. Disagreeing with the whole notion is fine but to challenge the credible evidence here without your own evidence to the Contrary is a little misguided. Thanks again G. Great subject and as always a good read. HH

 

[SASQUASH]

I have Sean tress that have been cut down in 1890's the markings are still there so I can see how this 1930's markings could still be read. Hay floater you would make a great Moderator been a few sense we have swapped post's. SAS <><