Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

[treasminder2]

Understand ?

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sI, Verstehen sie

 

[treasminder2]

Liber Ultan vershtien ?

Auk in himmel

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ya.

 

[treasminder2]

that's Ja to you

and I kan tu speel

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

n. ya kenot. Igernt bush hopper.Cin't make coffe, so there !

 

[treasminder2]

T , if you're not careful , I'll begin posting in Sanskrit on ya .

 

[gollum]

SDCFIA,

I agree with you in part. Traditionally, dore bars are thought of as mostly gold or silver. As you said, typically 50% - 90% pure. Many of the people I know use the term dore for any unrefined bar of metal.

Lots of peripheral info that says the bar that was assayed is not representative of all the bars in VP (or Caballos). Tony Jolley could not have bought a ranch and left his son the money he did with ten bars like the one assayed. There are also several people that gave testimonials after Doc was murdered as to EXACTLY what the bars they got from Doc were. GOLD.

Mike

 

[treasminder2]

when you see one of the real ones , after you dig it out , you may change that tune .

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA,

I agree with you in part. Traditionally, dore bars are thought of as mostly gold or silver. As you said, typically 50% - 90% pure. Many of the people I know use the term dore for any unrefined bar of metal.

Lots of peripheral info that says the bar that was assayed is not representative of all the bars in VP (or Caballos). Tony Jolley could not have bought a ranch and left his son the money he did with ten bars like the one assayed. There are also several people that gave testimonials after Doc was murdered as to EXACTLY what the bars they got from Doc were. GOLD.

Mike

The assay you posted appears in The Gold House Book 1 - the H&H report dated 2/4/1939. Another assay was completed two weeks later (2/18/1939). The second assay showed essentially the same values as the first. Good ore, but only about $100 gold value in the 40-pound ingots (at 35$/oz gold). They were copper bars with three ounces of contained gold.

From what John Clarence has provided, it does seem that these values were representative of the bars Noss had - bars I suspect came from the Caballos. Hearsay aside (possibly from duped bullion buyers not wanting to admit they had been swindled?), there is no hard evidence that proves Noss possessed "gold bars". As I mentioned earlier, these assay reports are strong circumstantial evidence explaining why the Feds never busted Noss for possessing gold bullion and why he was often accused of selling "fake gold bars". In addition, it offers an explanation why Douthit lived fairly frugally when he arrived in CA and why he needed to return to NM so often - the bars he and Doc had access to had value, but not great value.

As far as Jolley is concerned, I agree he helped Noss bury quite a number of these bars the night before Doc was killed, and then came back years later to retrieve some of them. He probably thought they were "gold bars", just like Charley Ryan did. Now we have a sensible explanation why Doc wanted to back out of the Ryan deal - his bars were mostly copper, not gold. Ryan wasn't having any more of Noss's BS and we know what happened. I do believe that Jolley hauled off some valuable metal which he undoubtedly sold, as he says he did. However, "Buying a ranch" can range anywhere from the Ponderosa to ten acres in the desert.

 

[gollum]

The assay you posted appears in The Gold House Book 1 - the H&H report dated 2/4/1939. Another assay was completed two weeks later (2/18/1939). The second assay showed essentially the same values as the first. Good ore, but only about $100 gold value in the 40-pound ingots (at 35$/oz gold). They were copper bars with three ounces of contained gold.

From what John Clarence has provided, it does seem that these values were representative of the bars Noss had - bars I suspect came from the Caballos. Hearsay aside (possibly from duped bullion buyers not wanting to admit they had been swindled?), there is no hard evidence that proves Noss possessed "gold bars". As I mentioned earlier, these assay reports are strong circumstantial evidence explaining why the Feds never busted Noss for possessing gold bullion and why he was often accused of selling "fake gold bars". In addition, it offers an explanation why Douthit lived fairly frugally when he arrived in CA and why he needed to return to NM so often - the bars he and Doc had access to had value, but not great value.

As far as Jolley is concerned, I agree he helped Noss bury quite a number of these bars the night before Doc was killed, and then came back years later to retrieve some of them. He probably thought they were "gold bars", just like Charley Ryan did. Now we have a sensible explanation why Doc wanted to back out of the Ryan deal - his bars were mostly copper, not gold. Ryan wasn't having any more of Noss's BS and we know what happened. I do believe that Jolley hauled off some valuable metal which he undoubtedly sold, as he says he did. However, "Buying a ranch" can range anywhere from the Ponderosa to ten acres in the desert.

You might want to rewatch a part of the Tony Jolley Interview:



By your logic, at three ounces of gold per bar at $35.25 dollars per ounce (1961 spot price) times ten bars equals $997.50. I highly doubt that $1000 could buy any ranch and have money to leave as inheritance to his son. Listen carefully to what Jolley says on tape "I later disposed of the ten bars and got quite a lot of money for them..." Granted, "quite a lot of money" is a very relative phrase, but does not sound like 30 ounces. Also, it would not have taken him, a friend that owned a refinery, and the accountant to hide the sale of ten mostly copper bars and thirty ounces of gold.

I do agree that the mostly copper bars were the source of people claiming Doc tried to sell them copper bars. Nothing to do with the Charley Ryan thing though. Jolley said that Doc had shown Ryan where 51 of the bars were hidden. Ryan said he would pay Doc after he took possession of the bars, but Doc heard that Ryan was going to screw him on the deal, so he wanted to rehide as much of the gold as he could. Doc and Ova had talked about the Ryan Deal and both agreed that Doc should rehide as much of the gold as he could.

Here is what Doc told both Tony Jolley and Ova: Doc had gotten suspicious of Ryan, so he snuck up to Ryans House two days before he was murdered. He listened to Ryan talking to his wife through the kitchen window. Ryan said that once he had the the gold on the plane, he was going to escort the gold to the buyer, one of the men (Jack Lawrence) was going to shut down the operation, pay the men their earned wages, and pick up the cash in old Mexico, and Doc would never hear from Ryan after that. Ryan was going to fly the gold in a DC3 across the border and leave Doc holding the bag.

Several people got solid gold bars from Doc. Sheriff Wesley White of Sonora, Texas loaned Doc a large chunk of cash and was repaid with a bar of solid gold.

SDCFIA, your claims just keep getting shot down.

Mike

 

[treasminder2]

Actually what Drove Doc's paranoia that last day , night , and the next day , was the fact that
a plane that Ryan sent up into the basin to grab some bars , that Doc was holding there for the plane ,
had crashed killing one of the guys aboard .

That death was the game changer , In his fear , Doc tried to dispose of the cargo of bars ,
Nothing like a good plane crash with a death involved to bring Fed snoops around .

You can imagine Doc's panic .
from that moment , the game took a whole nother twist ,,, EEEeeeeek ! gotta run , gotta hide , here help
me clean this mess up , Uh ,,, Uh ,, what'll we do about these bars ? !!!!

Eeek Eeeek , I so scared , run hide .
Imagine his panic and work it from there .

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
Listen carefully to what Jolley says ...
<cut>
Jolley said that Doc had shown Ryan where 51 of the bars were hidden. Ryan said he would pay Doc after he took possession of the bars, but Doc heard <cut>
Here is what Doc told both Tony Jolley and Ova:
<cut>
Several people got solid gold bars from Doc. Sheriff Wesley White of Sonora, Texas loaned Doc a large chunk of cash and was repaid with a bar of solid gold.

SDCFIA, your claims just keep getting shot down.

Mike

Mike, you're merely repeating Clarence's unsupported hearsay. I read the book too, and as far as the Noss "gold bars" are concerned, the H&H assays are the only facts we've seen that relate directly to them. A whole mountain of hearsay, sure, but for one who was born after the events, my rule of thumb is, "Anyone can say anything. Show me some proof. Anything." The assays are proof that the bars were copper, carrying three ounces of gold. Where are the assays from all the other guys who claim to have Noss gold bars? Jolley's story would garner more attention if we knew what real estate he purchased, and under what terms. You're doing a lot of shooting, but so far you're using blanks. Let's see some live ammo.

 

[UncleMatt]

Round and round we go. Its so odd how some feel their repeating of unsupported hearsay is in some way more valid than when they claim others are doing so. If you ask others for proof to support their position, where is the proof you have to support your position? If you want to cling to the idea Noss was a con man and was killed for it by Ryan, you will need a lot more than an assay report from a dore bar Noss supposedly owned. A very rational explanation has been offered to explain why he had fake bars, but its rejected as if just engaging in that rejection represents evidence of some kind. Hold yourself to the same standards of proof you seek to hold others.

 

[treasminder2]

View attachment 1123964

see this ? it's a valid artifact , can I prove it ? Nope , it was confiscated . am I conning you ? nope .

just that simple , if Doc had valid bars , Secret service agent Hirst would have bagged them up for the Gov.t .

think not ?
fine , all it would take for anyone to know for sure , is find a valid treasure . You'll get the answer fast .

I did .

 

[sdcfia]

Round and round we go. Its so odd how some feel their repeating of unsupported hearsay is in some way more valid than when they claim others are doing so. If you ask others for proof to support their position, where is the proof you have to support your position? If you want to cling to the idea Noss was a con man and was killed for it by Ryan, you will need a lot more than an assay report from a dore bar Noss supposedly owned. A very rational explanation has been offered to explain why he had fake bars, but its rejected as if just engaging in that rejection represents evidence of some kind. Hold yourself to the same standards of proof you seek to hold others.

Well, you have a Psychology degree, I have an Engineering degree.

I deal in solving problems by examining evidence based on a classic logical approach to verifiable data. If you take the time to carefully examine my posts, you'll notice that I've questioned the dogma in the Noss/Douthit tales that is unsupported by proven facts, and then I've offered more logical alternatives based on what evidence does exist, and predictable human behavior in greed-motivated life situations. In Noss's case, it's a much easier task to second-guess him because he's not a "victim" but a life-long con man - a liar. You may wish to ignore the facts surrounding the ingots because Mike does too, but I've analyzed the evidence and also presented an alternative explanation that makes sense - including an interesting guess as to where the Caballo bars may have originated, also based on historical facts.

Your approach seems to rely on whose testimony you decide to accept - with or without facts to corroborate them - and then defend the hearsay at the exclusion of other ideas. Hearsay is not fact. Verifiable testimony and documentation, and physical evidence are facts.

By the way, I've been on the fence concerning this subject for decades. The Gold House Book 1 has swayed my opinion greatly against the popular dogma. I wonder if it's some sort of Freudian slip on the writer's part that presented so much contradictory material against Noss? You're the Psychologist, what do you think? I'm referring to the Horzmann material, the cataloging of Noss's criminal tendencies and history, the Government's lack of action against Noss re the Gold Act, Noss's treachery against his wife/partner, the assay evidence, the unreliability of Noss's supporters and witnesses, and the vacuum of tangible evidence supporting the contents, if any, in Victorio Peak.

Whatever. To each his own.

 

[treasminder2]

View attachment 1123971

Honor as this , and this discussion would be mute .
Right ?

Try this Matt , give profile of this picture , post your feelings on what message you see in it .

Caption at first , to me was : " Sir Knight , be careful , be sure you come home to me "

Deeper , I can take the dark side of the Lady ,,,,

Manipulator ; her subconscious speaks : Good , go , get more land and power for me "

off to battle the Knight goes to gain his love more

why do i say that
sdfcia said it : Greed

Honey Traps , Greed ,,, war for profit and acquisition of resources , people , land .

 

[jackrook]

<img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1123964"/> see this ? it's a valid artifact , can I prove it ? Nope , it was confiscated . am I conning you ? nope . just that simple , if Doc had valid bars , Secret service agent Hirst would have bagged them up for the Gov.t . think not ? fine , all it would take for anyone to know for sure , is find a valid treasure . You'll get the answer fast . I did .

That's exactly what I was thinking. The secret service KNEW of Doc and his dealings and if he really had gold bars on his person, they would have been confiscated in an instant. The govt always kept doc at an arms distance because they knew he didn't have ****. Now in a cave or Burried under a spring? That's a different story.

slowest member of WCPR

 

[UncleMatt]

If one claims to be an expert at analyzing facts and evidence, I would then question them when they fall short of doing so when it comes to their own claims, even as they try to hold others to a different standard. The same thing would apply when they present their opinion and the hearsay they wish to focus upon as "factual evidence". Like I said, round and round we go.

 

[treasminder2]

Yes Matt , and that's how speculation works isn't it ?
With what we have as hard evidence , we may as well try and catch the wind.

I know the experiences I had with Black Ops and finding treasure , and I post them openly ,
I am alive not dead like Doc , and yet , I can prove nothing of my statements
due to lack of Hard Evidence .

if Doc and the boys were alive , same thing , all they could do is post their experiences here as well .
would we believe in them if that were the case ?

Not likely , Hirst was there , his investigation on site with Doc , proved out to be the same , no hard evidence
that Doc found a valid treasure .

Knowing first hand , how agents operate on people who have found valid treasure , I have my conclusion without having to
have been there at Docs Time .

Agents hot on a True trail , do not lay down and back off, they go at it for years if need be .
Gold , caused the breaking of Treaties for chrisakes , Black Hills Gold turned to Wounded knee .

Thousands of smelted Gold Bars ? , no , sorry , if Doc had them , he'd of been abducted and tortured for them
by Gov.'t .

Ova while alive got back to the Peak in two separate Fiasco's , Public with plenty of equipment to dig it out .
End result ?
The Old Wind Bag stood and screamed " The Army stole the Gold "
afterward , she counted the coin she was given for the Story .

Same with ONFP , Zilch came out , But plenty investors money went into folks pockets .

a Long long history of scams .
that's sick man , just sick