Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

[gollum]

Springy,

I know all about the Loriouses and Heberers. I have also read that story about Doc. How much is true or not, I can't say. While I haven't read the books yet, my understanding is that the author came up with a different version of the story. The killers are supposed to have been two brothers and the murders happened at WD's Cave in the Caballos (not Doc's). The redhead was not (according to this version) at the motel. She was standing at the car outside the cave. Three were shot inside and the redhead was murdered outside the cave while trying to run away. I haven't heard any mention of Doc in this version, but until reading the books, I (once again) can't say anything for certain.

Mike

 

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[jones791]

Springy,

I know all about the Loriouses and Heberers. I have also read that story about Doc. How much is true or not, I can't say. While I haven't read the books yet, my understanding is that the author came up with a different version of the story. The killers are supposed to have been two brothers and the murders happened at WD's Cave in the Caballos (not Doc's). The redhead was not (according to this version) at the motel. She was standing at the car outside the cave. Three were shot inside and the redhead was murdered outside the cave while trying to run away. I haven't heard any mention of Doc in this version, but until reading the books, I (once again) can't say anything for certain.

Mike

You have the Authors version correct Gollum. The Author based his information on the case file from the New Mexico State Police.

 

[Springfield]

..... the murders happened at WD's Cave in the Caballos (not Doc's). ....

Yes, this is the key question raised in the Bryan version (note: not a treasure hunting book) and with other speculations - the origin of Noss' gold. Caballos or Hembrillo Basin. The coincidence that Noss and Daught could be best buddies and each locate a huge bullion cache in two separate locations strains credibility beyond the breaking point. Red flag, buddy, and a big one. The allegations that Noss salted Soledad Peak with Caballo gold from Daught's (or Noss' and Daught's) cache cannot be dismissed as a possibility, IMO.

Then there is the huge red flag concerning Noss' alleged identity as Milton Starr from Oklahoma. This probably doesn't mean much to you, but it is monumental to the alternative group of researchers who can explain, by family connections, exactly how Noss could have located the Caballo cache, and also the Hembrillo Basin cache. Doc, IMO, was the brains of the NM outfit (rogue?), and Daught - maybe in the club, but probably just a helper.

Here's a possible scenario: Noss had prior information that caches were located in the Caballo Mountains and at Soledad Peak near 33 deg N lat. Along with Daught, he located the Caballo cache. He could not locate the Soledad cache so he fabricated the deer-hunting discovery (up high) in order to validate a mining claim on the mountain which would allow him to further explore the peak for the cache which was later allegedly located lower. Daught's alleged later experiences and the Noss saga which followed are faily well known, at least in the public's perception.

I hope the new books shed some light on the truth of these mysteries, and not just more of the same stuff we're used to. It would be my opinion that Noss' family in the '30's and '40's may or may not know what really happened (I lean towards 'not' at this time), and that all descendants up to the present are merely filtering their own versions of heresay. The modern goat ropes at Hembrillo Basin and the government-stole-the-gold issues are irrelevent to the question at hand, IMO - what was Doc Noss' true role in the '30's.

 

[lostcauses]

Lets see : on the Lorius and Heberer mess:
FBI had at one time 6 foot high set of documents on this, not counting the NM state police and other law enforcement records of it.

It is still considered an open case.

I will have to ask some one about the stories the women use to tell on this. Direct conversations with them.

One of the questions is just how much jewelry the group had on them as well as cash and travelers checks. Supposedly diamonds and other jewels.

Again information of this case could be found in news paper articles. The guy that supposedly hung himself (article posted) was later exonerated from the case.

Strangely enough the stuff found on the west mesa, does go with the story of Noss taking all them papers and burning them ( supposedly mapped and writings from the cave. Hmm maybe he was destroying a suitcase full of the Lorius and Heberer stuff.

It also account for why Noss was so upset when on of the women took a crown or tiara down to the butcher shop to have it weighed.
Does put a different perspective to a lot of the old Noss stories the women told.

Hell maybe the whole group was running around ripping off tourist and converting the metal to bars and selling the jewels, using the money etc...
A whole different perspective of what may have been going on way back when.

I will have to agree with the lat. situation witch of course was why a sextant was being used by WD and of course the Gorgonio Wilson WPA folk history story of 1937;
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?wpa:32:./temp/~ammem_pVJV::
It is a story that makes one wounder were WD's map and instrument really went when he was kidnapped from Hatch that night he had found the bar and showed it around.

 

[gollum]

Spring,

As I said a while back. It does not seem as there is any coincidence between WD and Noss at all. There was one map that showed six locations of treasure storage in the area, with a name prominently displayed on it, and that name would easily explain why a sextant was used instead of a compass.

While WD claims that Doc found his first, he repeats several times in the interview that in about 1935 he told Doc "I found mine, now you get yours."

While there are some inconsistencies in WD/LF story, I can forgive what I heard to two three things:

1. His operation to remove a brain tumor. Easily could have affected his memory.

2. The fact that his removing the gold was highly illegal at the time.

3. He most definitely killed one person, and most likely a few more to get his gold and keep it secret.

Lost,

Do you REALLY think that either Mrs. Lorious or Heberer carried a tiara (of the type described) on vacation? REALLY?

Did you see the ring WD had that he found near VP? Although I am of the belief that WD was not BSing in the interview, I would like to compare both Mrs Loriou's and Heberer's list of jewelry to what I have on video.

Your link doesn't work, but I know the story. Interesting connection.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Spring,

As I said a while back. It does not seem as there is any coincidence between WD and Noss at all. There was one map that showed six locations of treasure storage in the area, with a name prominently displayed on it, and that name would easily explain why a sextant was used instead of a compass......

Well, I expect to learn plenty about the map, locations, sextant, Doc's history before New Mexico and his relationship with Daught in the forthcoming book(s). If not, I for one will be disappointed because the events/people that led to the caches and Noss' activities prior to the deer hunt are the meat of the whole saga. What happened afterwards, while newsworthy, is nonetheless old news with many spins. I guess we'll wait and see if these books are going to be thought provoking or just more whiskey talk.

By the way, anybody out there heard anything about a couple of Arrey, NM, 'telescope cowboys' who got shot in the Caballos sometime in the 1960's?

 

[gollum]

Spring,

The books were initially a conglomeration of the personal notes of four partners in the search (one of which goes back to 1954). After the author went through them, he was hooked and began his own research and fact checking. He came up with a lot of information that none of the four partners had previously known.

If what I have been told is true (and I expect that it is), the books will be knockouts. I have a goodly amount of priviledged information on the subject, and the books will likely include most of that plus, plus, plus. I look forward to reading them.

Mike

 

[lostcauses]

"the books will be knockouts."

The first one does provide a great deal of documentation that most would have difficulty finding. It is a knockout.

It should be used for them that chase in the caballos and also the other Noss stories. You will not be able to get the info in the one book I saw easily. I believe from what I have seen of the first one, that the others will also be a great reference, and a must read by all THers to see what can go on. I don't recommend most books on the tales, the info is usually misleading:but at least the first book, I will.

Oh and gollum,
John's copy is the one I have seen, these book will be a must for a lot of reasons, but mostly for the documentation that is given.
I hope you know John V.. Figure you do. John is Don S partner in the area now days.

 

[Loke]

oh oh - not THE 'John V' ?

 

[lostcauses]

oh oh - not THE 'John V' ?

John V the story teller painter etc.
Listened to all them stories the women would tell him and his brother, the one a lot of people hunt down for info, etc...
Yep I would say "THE"
Short of Rex one of the most knowledgeable of the tails of the caballos

Probably not the one you may be thinking of. LOL

 

[gollum]

I think Loke is thinking about John V. Kemm? I pray that "V" is his last name initial. LOL

Mike

 

[lostcauses]

I think Loke is thinking about John V. Kemm? I pray that "V" is his last name initial. LOL

Mike

Of course V is an initial for last name. LOL

I take it John V. Kemm is of the peralta stones??

 

[Loke]

ahhh *sigh of relief*

 

[lostcauses]

ahhh *sigh of relief*

I guess I could go take a photo of the heart on the back side of the caballos, it fits better with them stones than the supposed aerial game, some play, LOL

A bit off topic.

Initials are for the last name. Them that know will know. A lot of folks today don't want bothered with every one hunting em down. I can thank Bill White or what ever his name is for assistance there. I have been lucky in that no one has in a year or so.

Hmm will have to see if I can find the women's maiden names in the Lorius and Heberer case and do a bit of research on them. Be interesting to see why they were carrying jewelry with them. (rumors and reports say they were).

gollum do you have a list of the jewelry the state police report had??
How about the maiden names??

 

[gollum]

That I don't, sorry.

Mike

 

[Connecticut Sam]

Many interesting comments.

 

[lostcauses]

Springy,

I know all about the Loriouses and Heberers. I have also read that story about Doc. How much is true or not, I can't say. While I haven't read the books yet, my understanding is that the author came up with a different version of the story. The killers are supposed to have been two brothers and the murders happened at WD's Cave in the Caballos (not Doc's). The redhead was not (according to this version) at the motel. She was standing at the car outside the cave. Three were shot inside and the redhead was murdered outside the cave while trying to run away. I haven't heard any mention of Doc in this version, but until reading the books, I (once again) can't say anything for certain.

Mike

brothers being the Palmer's?? or similar spelling.

 

[gollum]

The Palmer Brothers would be correct.

Mike

 

[Connecticut Sam]

Don't believe everything that you read or have been told about treasures. [email protected]

 

[lostcauses]

Don't believe everything that you read or have been told about treasures. [email protected]

Of course not. There of course is more stories "folklore" that real information. even depositions, and interveiws of and with people, are still people.

The other problem is getting locked into a belief of a story, closing the mind.

Does any one know of photos of the Palmer duo