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Thread: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

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  1. #76
    us
    Sep 2007
    1,797
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    I believe the story about treasures found by Noss, and then the Army went in, and took all out.

  2. #77
    Charter Member
    om
    Jan 2006
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    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    FINALLY! LOL Thank You.

    I don't have 100 Tons of Gold, but at least this gives some aspects of the anti-Noss stories some meat.

    Unfortunately, Gordon Herkenhoff has passed away, and is not available to verify or deny the story. All of Herkenhoff's brothers and sister are gone as well.

    See, I put no stock in any story that includes no facts. There needs to be at least some facts to research for any story to get some traction.

    Mike

    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  3. #78
    Charter Member
    om
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    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Okay, I have been running my copy of the 1.5 hour Tony Jolley Interview through Adobe Premiere Pro, and have started cutting out some snippets that don't have any effect on any projects or confidences. I have also received permission to post some of those snippets.

    This first one is about four minutes long and is the story of Jolley and his recovering ten of the 110 gold bars.

    Enjoy-Mike




    Like I said before, just because something hasn't been made public for everyone to see, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Pictures of the large gold bars from VP, sawing a large bar from VP in half with a hacksaw, Travis Tumlinson with the Stone Maps after he found them, Springfield stealing asparagus, Hitler fondling young boys, etc. HAHAHA
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  4. #79
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,850
    1162 times

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum
    .... This first one is about four minutes long and is the story of Jolley and his recovering ten of the 110 gold bars .....
    Plausible and believable. Having known a gentleman, long deceased, who was in a similar pickle long ago, I find it interesting that there was, after many years, still an uneasiness, almost a fear or guilt, detectable in both their voices and body language.
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  5. #80
    us
    Sep 2007
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Who did Jolley sold the bars to?

  6. #81
    um
    Dec 2008
    1,868
    894 times

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    "Father Kino Silver Bars"

    Regarding Post #3, above. There is a photo of a small silver "bar" about 2 1/4" x 2 1/4" that is identical to the last one shown in Charles J. Pozer, S.J.'s Desert Magazine article "Jesuit Gold" (August 1962).

    The caption for the photo states "Counterfeit Silver. These pieces of 'Jesuit-five,' reproduced in actual size, have appearances similar to others that have cropped-up literally from Maine to Mexico. They are unquestionably silver (40 to 60 per cent) just as they are unquestionably counterfeit..."

    Good luck to all,

    ~The Old Bookaroo
    Do you have good books in good condition you are never going to re-read? Clean 'em out!
    Operation Paperback collects gently used books and sends them to American troops.

  7. #82
    Charter Member
    om
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    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Bookaroo,

    While Father Polzer SJ was the preeminent historian of all things Jesuit in Northern New Spain, you have to keep several things in mind about the man and his job. He never saw one single bar of silver or gold that he would even consider as being authentic. Reason is...... since he "knew" the Jesuits (of which he was one) never had any treasures, then any bars associated with his Order "must" be fake.

    Whether it was the job assigned to him, or if he took it upon himself, he made it his sole work to get Father Eusebio Kino SJ canonized. Any admission that the Jesuits (including Father Kino) were participating in illegal activities (mining or treasure hoarding) would have put that canonization in grave jeopardy. It is funny though, how when Father Polzer was told by a close friend of his that the lost Tayopa Mine was found, he and his friend immediately flew to Mexico and attempted to claim the mine for the Church (even though he himself had been the single most vociferous opponent of Jesuit mining and treasures).

    Father Polzer SJ was not a metalurgist, a numismatist, nor an expert on mining. What would be necessary to establish whether a given bar was authentic or not is a test of all the elements in said bar. See, different methods of refining and smelting over the years rendered bars that were different in nature. Tests can be conducted to determine what technique was used to refine the bar and a date range could be estimated for it. Polzer never had any of this done.

    Mike
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  8. #83
    um
    Dec 2008
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    894 times

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Mike:

    I can't argue your points. Although whether or not Father Polzer was an expert...I'm not sure an analysis of the bars is necessarily required. There are other ways to tell.

    I am quite sure there are a great many more fakes out there then the real thing. Look at some of the photos in the treasure and adventure magazines from the 1950s, '60s and '70s - there are quite a few obvious fakes.

    Good luck to all,

    ~The Old Bookaroo

    Do you have good books in good condition you are never going to re-read? Clean 'em out!
    Operation Paperback collects gently used books and sends them to American troops.

  9. #84
    Charter Member
    om
    Jan 2006
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    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Bookaroo,

    I don't need to look in any books (although I have many). Because of my reputation, website, and a few online forums, I have had people send me pics of literally dozens and dozens of silver and gold bars that had been passed down in their families, found with metal detectors, etc.

    A simple way to tell an obvious fake is that when ingots are made, all the letters, numbers, and symbols are cast into the bars. The fakes typically are cast bars, then silver wire is shaped like the letters, symbols, and numbers, laid onto the bars, and then melted onto the surface. They are always easy to spot. Silver bars are easier to fake as well, because silver is cheaper to get than gold. That is why I usually give more weight to finds of gold bars (like my friend that found the 82 pounds of gold bars).

    Mike
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  10. #85
    us
    Sep 2007
    1,797
    47 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    How much all the treasure was found?

  11. #86

    Feb 2008
    1,487
    19 times

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Benny Samaniego and his suit of armor found; was said to be in the Salem arena. Wore it in a parade. Family says it was his own find unrelated to Noss. Supposedly a box was found with it also.

    More than one rumor of him working for Noss.
    The main one was that two drifts were put in to get back into the original entrance, and both missed. So they started back down the original opening.

    Strange that so far the only place I have seen this, is in Vics peak.. Any photos of such an attempt on the other peak,
    Last known status of that area I am talking about ( Vics) was wilderness study area due to the sheep.



  12. #87
    Charter Member
    om
    Jan 2006
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    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Lost,

    Benny did indeed work for Doc Noss. Doc gave him the suit of armor that I believe he eventually sold for $70,000. Doc also had given him some gold. Willie Daught also said that Benny was caught by Doc stealing some of the gold from VP, which was why they had a falling out.

    Mike
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  13. #88

    Feb 2008
    1,487
    19 times

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    gollum
    As usual it comes down to one set of stories to the other. People of course tend to believe the one that fits there desires.

    Benny was an interesting character unto himself. Then there is the bird rock still in the family the last I new. But then I have not kept track of them so who knows.

    I take nothing as fact that it seems most do in the case. A few assay reports, documents of statements by questionable characters etc. I listen, and read all, and believe very little.

    As I have found through the years people want to believe. People want attention, or to be a apart of "IT" etc.

    When I encounter true believers that do not question, I am always careful, As I am not a true believer.

    I have listened to the stories since I was a small kid.

    I still go out and play in the hills, over of course non restricted areas.

    New Mexico has a great deal of history, and stories.

    Last night at a local bar some one tried to engage me in the treasure hunting talk.
    Of course he claimed he could take me and show me were the treasure is. And of course I laughed ad told him " If you know were it is why are you sitting here??". Of course I wished him well in his pursuit.

    As I tell people when they ask me were it is, I tell them the truth. If I knew were it was at I would not be sitting here talking to you.

    As for the whole Noss story it is a strange and twisted one. The history, story, and supposed artifacts have a problem with matching history etc..

    I can say one thing for sure. Vics peak did have gold and was produce in that area.

    The other does not, yet of course the answer to that is it was all brought in, or mined in the mountain.

    Enough rambling for today.





  14. #89
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,850
    1162 times

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    lostcauses - excellent post. Excellent.
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  15. #90
    Charter Member
    om
    Jan 2006
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    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Lost Causes,

    Interesting points all and mostly true. Do you have any reasons to doubt Willie Daught's version of things? Willie lived until 1998, and gave only two interviews I know of, and both of them were to the same person. I don't think they were more than a few years apart. In his own words, after Ryan shot Doc Noss he left the area with the gold he and Buster Ward had taken out of their cave (in the Caballos), changed his name, and lived the rest of his life on that money. When he died in 1998, his estate was valued at about $1.5million (as I understand it). To recap, he lived from 1949 until 1998 on his half of the gold. He had enough to still leave $1.5 million when he died.

    Willie was probably Doc's closest friend. When Willie was kidnapped by some guys trying to find out where his cave was, Doc was the one that came to Willie's rescue.

    I don't take Doc at his every word. Between the Tony Jolley and Willie Daught interviews I have, and some of the other information I have gotten from other sources, I am pretty well satisfied as to what happened there in the 1930s. If the information is factual, and I don't have a reason to doubt it, I am also fairly satisfied as to the origins of the different caches. Little details like the exact order of the finds of different people are still elusive, but mean very little. They would have no great effect on the rest of the story.

    You are absolutely free to doubt and disbelieve anything you please. Makes no difference to me, and I am not here to sell books or try to persuade anybody one way or the other.. I just offer up what evidence I have that I was given permission to give out, so that anybody interested can come to their own conclusions. If my evidence points towards an authentic treasure, so be it. If it points towards a hoax, then I have no qualms about saying so. I don't have a horse in that race. I just think it is a very interesting story that is mostly surrounded by BS. See Lost, even more dangerous than a true believer is someone who wants to be on the inside so bad, that they make up information so they sound important. These idiots distort the story so badly that it is sometimes beyond recognition. That is why I think these books are very important. I have seen it many times regarding the Lost Dutchman. I personally think the great majority of the "known" information there is total BS (but that is because the very best information is second and third hand). In this case, though, there are several people who both saw and helped move a lot of gold from VP. There are many first hand stories, backed up by polygraph test results and markings in the cave system.

    I still have many questions about VP and the other treasure caves in the area, but they don't have any great effect on the story as I now understand it.

    Mike
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

 

 
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