DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[gollum]

Springy,

Not having been present to witness the goings on, I can only go by the words of those who were there

According to Willie Daughitt/Lawrence Foreman, the caves that were on his map were Jesuit in origin. I believe the Apache added to the contents over the years. I don't know if the Jesuits smelted the gold that was in the caves, though. It MAY (and I stress the word MAY) have already been in those caves, and POSSIBLY local Indians showed the caves to the Jesuits. I have to use the words "MAY" and "POSSIBLY" a lot here.

The only thing I believe for certain is that there was a vast hoard of wealth under Victorio Peak. We have a notarized affidavit from Capt Orby Swanner (US Army Military Police) stating that he personally witnessed the US Government flatbed approximately 93 million troy ounces of gold from the peak.

We have the Polygraph Test Results from Captains Fiege and Berlette which go towards proving their stories of finding a lower cave entrance with piles of gold bars on VP.

Mike

 

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[Springfield]

Springy,

Not having been present to witness the goings on, I can only go by the words of those who were there

According to Willie Daughitt/Lawrence Foreman, the caves that were on his map were Jesuit in origin. I believe the Apache added to the contents over the years. I don't know if the Jesuits smelted the gold that was in the caves, though. It MAY (and I stress the word MAY) have already been in those caves, and POSSIBLY local Indians showed the caves to the Jesuits. I have to use the words "MAY" and "POSSIBLY" a lot here.

The only thing I believe for certain is that there was a vast hoard of wealth under Victorio Peak. We have a notarized affidavit from Capt Orby Swanner (US Army Military Police) stating that he personally witnessed the US Government flatbed approximately 93 million troy ounces of gold from the peak.

We have the Polygraph Test Results from Captains Fiege and Berlette which go towards proving their stories of finding a lower cave entrance with piles of gold bars on VP.

Mike

Swanner's statement is unverified hearsay, regardless of his rank and the fact that what he said was notarized. Additional sworn statements by Army personnel who loaded the trucks would also be hearsay, but would strengthen your case. Photos would be better than stories.

You have a copy of the certified polygraph documentation? I'd like to see that - can you post a copy?

We know from aerial photography that the Army moved dirt on Victorio Peak in many locations with heavy equipment. Tried it here, tried it there, tried this side, tried that side. Makes an unbiased observer wonder if they ever did find anything, eh?

I'm open minded about the alleged Jesuit activity in the Caballos (where Noss likely got any gold he may have had), but I'm very curious how they might have done this in exclusively Franciscan territory? In the crosshairs of Apaches, who didn't cotton to missionaries. Mr. Daughtitt's information may have been incorrect or his story misrepresented.

 

[Oroblanco]

Come on people, I am mnot perfect, I knaw there must be flaws in my theory on the origin of the Bars in Victorio Peak and Tayopa's part in it So speak up or no coffee - ya hear thet oro?

I think Springfield has already addressed this. A big issue is the location, in relation to Tayopa, is not a logical nor reasonable treasure storage depot for Jesuits. But by all means do continue...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

yer fishing Oro, but ok, non verifiable, just personal speculation . The Jesuits at first used mule trains to a small bay near Matamorros. whether they developed a depository there or not, so far is unknown, but probably not since a ship could only arrive ever year or two, hurricane season, then winter storms. and used different anchorages.

Later somehow, they decided on the caballos and natural caves, but mort importantly, the river. It was navigable for the rest of the long journey for barges, or rafts, easily constructed on site. so they used more time on the primary route, but they more than made up for it by the far longer part of the trip by the river. ( I wonder how many bars were lost in the river ?? hmmmm.)

In other words If you could straighten the river out, it would reach almost to Chihuahua. A far less expensive and dangerous trip. ( I have many flaws in this reasoning but will present it for now )

A problem arises when they reach the river, unless they had an isolated ford, they would be too obvious. Hoof tracks in the sand or mud of heavily loaded animals.which would be obvious to anyone of that era.

Thay probably commenced storing the bars in the depository about the mid 1600's and continued to use it until the mid 1700's when they decided on the revolt against spain, and developed a depository in the Tayopa zone for the where-with-all to cover the expenses of the proposed Revelation. Less ecposure.

This could explain the no .of bars, but what is puzzling is no mention is made of Silver bars?? perhaps they wern;t valuable enough to go to the trouble and cost to send them to the Caballos

this will do for this morning, need something foe this afternoon.

 

[gollum]

Swanner's statement is unverified hearsay, regardless of his rank and the fact that what he said was notarized. Additional sworn statements by Army personnel who loaded the trucks would also be hearsay, but would strengthen your case. Photos would be better than stories.

You have a copy of the certified polygraph documentation? I'd like to see that - can you post a copy?

We know from aerial photography that the Army moved dirt on Victorio Peak in many locations with heavy equipment. Tried it here, tried it there, tried this side, tried that side. Makes an unbiased observer wonder if they ever did find anything, eh?

I'm open minded about the alleged Jesuit activity in the Caballos (where Noss likely got any gold he may have had), but I'm very curious how they might have done this in exclusively Franciscan territory? In the crosshairs of Apaches, who didn't cotton to missionaries. Mr. Daughtitt's information may have been incorrect or his story misrepresented.

Springy,

Your post is actually quite humorous. Do you REALLY believe the Army's Story? These are the same people that said there were ABSOLUTELY no caves under VP. That is, until Dr Lambert Dolphin and SRI (Stanford Research Institute) did seismic surveys and determined that VP was riddled with caves. Some of them were VERY large.

Regarding Capt. Orby Swanner; I think you may be having some memory issues, as I know I have gone over this several times, but we have much more than just a notarized affidavit. When Capt Swanner came out publicly against the Army and told the story of what he witnessed, the Army brought all guns to bear on him. They said he was a liar. The Army said that he had never been to VP. The Army said that there was not a grain of truth to anything he said. The Army said there were no caves under VP.

Capt Swanner told the ONFP that the only proof of the truth of his story was in one of the lower caverns. He said that in 1961 (when he was there), they used carbon arc lanterns, and he sooted his name onto the wall of one of the lower caves. So yes Springy, for many years, all anybody had was his word. UNTIL................................. OPERATION GOLDFINDER. After cutting through much rock and digging out many crevices, one of the lower caves was opened. GUESS WHAT THEY FOUND ON ONE OF THE WALLS OF THAT CAVE?

View attachment 1046580 View attachment 1046575

So Springy, you wanted pictures, you got pictures.

So, the Army lied about there being caves under VP. The Army lied about capt Swanner being at VP. The Army lied about Captains Fiege and Berlette finding anything of value at VP.

....................... AND YOU WANT TO BELIEVE THEM ABOUT, WHAT?

Regarding Willie Daughitt/Lawrence Foreman; With the possible exception of leaving out killing a few people to keep the treasure cave a secret, Willie told the same story for many years. Never changed as far as I know. The man went to meet his maker saying his story was true. Who am I (or you for that matter) to question his version without firm evidence contradicting it? Willie found what he found. After the second time being kidnapped and tortured, he took all the gold he could, and moved to San Diego. He changed his name to Lawrence Foreman. He didn't work (as far as I know). Paid for treatment of the malignant brain tumor out of his pocket, and when he died in 1998, his estate was still $3.5million dollars.

So Springy, you can inject whatever motives you want into Willie's Story, but I chose to believe the story as told by the man that found the gold. He had no reason to lie (especially later in life).

Nobody,

The Canada Law Review is not a paper. If the story was only in the "Bay of Plenty Times", I might be much more skeptical. My guess is that any Journals of Law Review would be pretty careful about vetting stories (a law review is not exactly the Enquirer).

Mike

 

[gollum]

Springy,

Regarding the Polygraph Results, I am at work right now. I know, I know. I work on Labor Day (Car Business). I don't have the copies with me. I know both Alex and myself have posted them before. If you look through the various VP Threads, I am sure you can find them. When I get home later, I will repost them though. No problem. The absolute most telling thing about the polygraph tests, were not the answers or the results (those I expected to be just as they were). The most telling thing was the way the Army worded some of the questions. They were VERY careful to never use the phrases "gold bars" or "gold ingots". Since Captains Fiege and Berlette said that they had found a cave on VP that contained piles of gold bars, I would have expected the polygraph examiner to specifically ask about gold bars. The Army was very telling in their omission.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Nobody,

Not speaking Portuguese myself, what I have been able to confirm is the "Antigo Colegio e Igreja do Jesuitas" was demolished in 1891 (just as the story goes). The demolition of the entire "Morro do Castelo" happened all the way into the early 1920s, to make way for modern Rio de Janeiro. The current Colégio Santo Inácio was not opened until 1903.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Golly. Springfield, for what it is worth,I saw tour posting on them while sifting through the entire posing on on this subject.

 

[Springfield]

So Springy, you wanted pictures, you got pictures.

... So Springy, you can inject whatever motives you want into Willie's Story, but I chose to believe the story as told by the man that found the gold. He had no reason to lie (especially later in life)...

Mike

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I have no problem with Willie or his find - I'm quite convinced the Caballos contain one or more quite large caches. I'm only doubting the validity of the alleged Jesuit reference on the map. Could Willie have been mistaken about it? For example, if he saw a cross on the map, did he just assume it meant Jesuit, or did the map say 'Jesuit'? I don't see any way the Jesuits could be operating in exclusive and well-traveled Franciscan territory.

Your photos didn't show on this computer - illegal attachment. I'll try my tablet later. I'd like to see pictures of the the gold bars in the lower caves, or on the trucks.

Do I believe the Army? As a rule of thumb, hell no. In this case ...? Do I believe anything from the Noss camp? Hell no. Period. What about all these Victorio groupies? People can and do say anything for any reason. Did Swanner soot his name or did someone else do it for him later? We can't know. Sorry - with all these players involved, you'd think someone would have snapped a telling photo somewhere along the line. Dolphin's caverns are one thing, but how can he or you be sure they weren't always empty? The existence of caverns could have been Noss's reason for choosing the site for his scamin the first place. There's caves all over that part of New Mexico - big ones. I could swear to God Almighty on the TeeVee news that there's 10,000 gold bars in Carlsbad caverns and the Park Service would deny it. So what? Are they lying? Lots of people would say they are. How can you be certain the Army didn't search for those caverns and find them empty? As far as Fiege, Swanner and all the rest of the players - who knows what their involvement is all about? Maybe they craved attention. Maybe someone promised them something. Where's the photos of the stacks of bars? Bottom line for me is that the Caballos is most likely where the serial liar/con/criminal Noss obtained gold bars, and the remote Hembrillo Basin is where he scammed everyone. I'd love to be a believer here, but the smell of it won't go away.

 

[Springfield]

Golly. Springfield, for what it is worth,I saw tour posting on them while sifting through the entire posing on on this subject.

You're right, Jose. For years I accepted that Victorio Peak had been a large gold depository. Nagging doubts always lingered however, and now I am finally off that wagon. I believe the action was (is) in the Caballo range, with Hembrillo Basin being a red herring that Noss used to draw attention away from the Caballos. Of course, if someone can provide evidence beyond hearsay that favors Victorio Peak, I'll reconsider.

 

[markmar]

Gollum

I believe Willie Daughitt/Lawrence Foreman had the red map or a version of it . Is a easy map to recognize if you know from where have to start . And Willie knew . And I too .

 

[gollum]

Springy,

The wealth was absolutely under VP. Remember though, Willie's Map showed SEVEN (7) treasure caves. I would be willing to bet that those caves are stretched out between the Organs and the Caballos. Just like that cave of steps that is supposed to be on Hardscrabble Peak (but its not on Hardscrabble).

I will give some of a personal theory on all that. Some is based on known facts, some is based on privileged information, with a bit of speculation thrown in for flavor.

First, I don't give a crap about the origin of the gold. I don't care if it was cached away by the Ancient Ones or Richard Pryor. I can say without equivocation that I believe Willie's Cave contained over 2,000 40 pound gold bars, and there was a huge cache of gold bars and artifacts at VP. I think that Willie found the map of seven treasure caves, then using the sextant/astrolabe (whatever). After Doc helped Willie escape his second kidnapping, Willie showed Doc the map. From there, Doc found the cave under VP containing the gold. From every source I have ever heard that knew the man, I can say that Doc was a shrewd man. I think he memorized as much of Willie's Map as he could. He tried to do the right thing with VP originally. When he saw how big of a screwing he was getting, I bet he started searching for another of the five as yet unfound treasure caves. I think he found his second cave. I also think he tried to keep that second cave a secret from everybody (not hard to imagine after what he endured with the first cave). My guess is that he planned on taking small amounts of gold as needed from the second cave, but was murdered by Charlie Ryan before he could really do much.

So, Jesuit, Franciscan, Pryor, or Sleestak. The only part of my theory I won't give is origin and a couple of goodies that I still want to chase down.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Springy,

The wealth was absolutely under VP. Remember though, Willie's Map showed SEVEN (7) treasure caves. I would be willing to bet that those caves are stretched out between the Organs and the Caballos. Just like that cave of steps that is supposed to be on Hardscrabble Peak (but its not on Hardscrabble).

I will give some of a personal theory on all that. Some is based on known facts, some is based on privileged information, with a bit of speculation thrown in for flavor.

First, I don't give a crap about the origin of the gold. I don't care if it was cached away by the Ancient Ones or Richard Pryor. I can say without equivocation that I believe Willie's Cave contained over 2,000 40 pound gold bars, and there was a huge cache of gold bars and artifacts at VP. I think that Willie found the map of seven treasure caves, then using the sextant/astrolabe (whatever). After Doc helped Willie escape his second kidnapping, Willie showed Doc the map. From there, Doc found the cave under VP containing the gold. From every source I have ever heard that knew the man, I can say that Doc was a shrewd man. I think he memorized as much of Willie's Map as he could. He tried to do the right thing with VP originally. When he saw how big of a screwing he was getting, I bet he started searching for another of the five as yet unfound treasure caves. I think he found his second cave. I also think he tried to keep that second cave a secret from everybody (not hard to imagine after what he endured with the first cave). My guess is that he planned on taking small amounts of gold as needed from the second cave, but was murdered by Charlie Ryan before he could really do much.

So, Jesuit, Franciscan, Pryor, or Sleestak. The only part of my theory I won't give is origin and a couple of goodies that I still want to chase down.

Mike

OK. I guess your Willie map is the one with all the 7's and spirals on it, plus the ankh within the rising sun. That map is interesting to me primarily because of the spirals. I've slept too many nights since I read the Willie story, but didn't he claim to have found the map in an old building , or some such? That's a well worn yarn in these parts, and I always find it amazing that some guy just happens to find such a thing lying around. Who left town and forgot to take it along? Jesuits? Ha ha. Now, wild-eyed researchers like us and thousands of others get to study it, trying to zero in on the riches of the world. Why would that happen? And ... you've even got people whispering golden fleece secrets in your ear. Life is so good, no?

Don't get me wrong - I do believe in Willie's Caballos find. Bat Cave Canyon. Cache of thousands of bars. Skeletons too - lots of 'em. Snake den in there. "The smell of death." Another guy found it in the '60's and added two more bodies. That canyon is still crowded with gold pilgrims and tight-lipped scammers. Doc was one of them in the '30's.

Doc and Willie. Willie and Doc. Sounds like an outlaw country duo. God knows what brought them together. Yeah, Doc was shrewd all right, but not quite shrewd enough in the end.

Well, we might disagree on VP, but I do hope you have the wind at you back if you decide to poke around looking for stuff in NM. Stay safe.

 

[Not Peralta]

Every one brings up good arguments about noss and victorio peak. but with all that has been said about this subject something is still very wrong about VP. and always has been, with every thing that doc was supposed to have done at VP why did he not spend a lot of time there. doc was a creature of habit, most of his time was spent in the caballo's , not VP. AND THAT IS A FACT, and did anyone see the original attorney agreements between capt swanner, fiege and berlette and OVA or ONFP, and anyone else involved. everything was done through the attorneys for ova, or later with ONFP. look at why certain people in the beginning became involved with this. eye witnesses and statements,and the story of gold , lots of gold, brings in wealth of its own through investers, lots of stories, lots of investers money. np

 

[Not Peralta]

I guess 1.2 million troy ounces is more believable than 93 million, but 40 tons of gold outta the Caballos? Didn't happen:

It has been estimated that the total value of copper, silver, gold, and lead produced from the Caballos before 1952 did not exceed $200,000. At present, more fluorspar is produced than any other mineral. The largest fluorspar deposits are found in Precambrian granite, and jasperized Fusselman Dolomite.

I personally consider the question you abandon a quite important one, especially if you are going to claim caches of amounts that could not have come from anywhere near the Caballos.

So, for those that believe in large caches in NON-GOLD BEARING AREAS, where the hell is all of this supposed gold coming from?

THE GOLD GETTIN' PLACE, HAVE SOME NP

 

[Springfield]

... So, for those that believe in large caches in NON-GOLD BEARING AREAS, where the hell is all of this supposed gold coming from?

There have been modest gold recoveries in several locations in New Mexico's Rio Grande Basin, including the Caballos, but no history or indications that would explain the Caballo cache allegations. I do agree with Mike's estimate of the Caballo cache size, so where did it come from?

We have to allow for the possibility that the gold was mined from a rare rich deposit in the Caballo range itself that has escaped detection since. A low probability, but possible.

If the gold came from elsewhere, odds favor a location with known potential for generating large quantities of gold. The closest is about 60 miles west. If the gold came from such a distance, why move it to the Caballos? Logistics. If we're talking about the Phoenician period, a depository at the shipping point - on the river down to the Gulf of Mexico - makes sense. A convenient staging area.

If we're talking any time after ca 1400 - Apache era - the Rio Grande was probably more secure than the remote Gila country that was the Apache's heartland. Better security.

Of course, VP could theoretically have had a rich gold deposit (very low probability), or have been an unexplained ancient depository too - as could a hundred other sites nearby - but logistically is an inferior choice for many reasons. Mike is adamant in his belief in the Noss story, but I'm not at all convinced.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sheesh guys, short memories ?? TAYOPA zone and Sonora.

 

[Springfield]

Sheesh guys, short memories ?? TAYOPA zone and Sonora.

Yeah, but ... how do you explain all the Jesuit activity in an exclusively Franciscan stronghold?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

'THAT' has given me some thought, nobody, except that here, in the Tayopa zone, they left another which I am working on, It was to supply the expenses for the takeover of North America perhaps, just perhaps, the same applies at VP, or were they waiting for the successful revolution ??

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springfield. perhaps coadjutors on the forefront. or collusion A sort of