DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[vor]

-

Proof Positive To You = Two independent sources? Okay, how about the five cowboys on the Holden ranch that Willie Doughit walked up to and dropped a dore bar at their feet after they teased him about finding his cave?

Maybe the ten gold bars that Tony Jolley found (after helping Doc rebury 110) and sold to buy the ranch (he paid cash for) and willed to his son?

Maybe the $3.5 million dollar estate left buy Lawrence Foreman/Willie Doughit when he died? And the million cash his girlfriend stole from his house?

ES to you!

Mike

Whoaa. Lots of edits there. And a lot of tales. How about a few citations to back them up? Never saw any evidence of Doughit having any cash. Maybe appreciation on property in his part of the country .

We all have had girlfriend problems but doubt if anyone can prove she stole 1mm.

I understand that you have pretty much centered your life around old SW treasure stories but wishing just doesn't make them true...even if you tap them ruby slippers together.

It wasn't that long ago that the crowd was bashing ole NP for the fictitious mission photo, but now he is accepted into the fold. Maybe you can see the light here

V

 

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[vor]

Okay, I'll tell you what. You stop trolling comments, and I will be civil. I will even go back and erase my negative comments to you. How about that?

Before posting statements, please learn a thing or two about the subject. While there may be cause to question where Doc's Gold originated, there is really no question that he had access to large amounts of it. Sa,e can be said for Willie Doughit/Lawrence Foreman. It is entirely possible that he murdered a young guy that had the maps that led to his cave, and it is just as possible that he found them himself. Newspaper articles of the day recounted the story of his dropping the bar in front of the cowboys. Mr Holden (ranch owner) recounted the story himself to one paper.

Mike

Mike
I will slow down as not to comment over each other. Cowboys...thanks, just one person's account/newspaper article. Holden. Dismissed.

Sorry, there is doubt that Doc had access to large amount. Just fact. Or wishful thinking. No proof.

Why are my comments trolling? I just don't sit still for listening to biased comments that have absolutely no basis in fact.

Yeah, lets just let this forum be dreamers and believers of old stories of the great SW. That sure serves the best interest of the TH community doesn't it?

V

 

[gollum]

-

Whoaa. Lots of edits there. And a lot of tales. How about a few citations to back them up? Never saw any evidence of Doughit having any cash. Maybe appreciation on property in his part of the country .

We all have had girlfriend problems but doubt if anyone can prove she stole 1mm.

I understand that you have pretty much centered your life around old SW treasure stories but wishing just doesn't make them true...even if you tap them ruby slippers together.

It wasn't that long ago that the crowd was bashing ole NP for the fictitious mission photo, but now he is accepted into the fold. Maybe you can see the light here

V

The crowd will call anybody out when something is blatantly wrong. If NP came out with another pic that could be proven wrong, they would be called on it, as I hope I would be had I ever posted anything fictitious or erroneous. How do you know NP is a he?

Yeah property appreciation. How did a poor unemployed kid from rural New Mexico buy a house in San Diego? I am sure there are records of his wealth at the time of his death. I do know a thing or two about the man. My purpose is not to sway any nonbelievers opinions. I personally don't care whether someone believes any of this one way or another.

Centered my life? Not quite. I do spend an inordinate amount of time studying a few of the treasure stories. My main area of interest is Jesuit History and the wealth they left behind (read my thread on the subject). That study has led to several other stories. I have many interests in my life. Treasure Hunting is just one. I prospect, scuba, and skydive (having jumped out of airplanes for many years in both the US Navy and the US Army).

I have been very lucky in the twenty odd years I have been doing this to have met several people who are quite wealthy with no reason to lie about where their wealth came from. Treasure Hunting in the SW. You are more than welcome to scoff at the subject. It only tells me that you haven't studied it very closely yet. But all that aside, you are entirely welcome to whatever opinion you wish. If you are skeptical, that is great! Do what I did twenty odd years ago. Go out and buy some books on the subject. Meet some of the old timers that have actually found things. Spend enough time seriously researching the subject, and you would see how ludicrous your antagonistic skepticism sounds.

I am not a shapes in the clouds kind of guy. I have spent many years of my life looking into these stories. Hiking the mountains and deserts verifying their veracity. If something is dubious, I say so. If something makes sense, I say that as well. I am far from being a sheep. I just know without a shred of doubt in my mind that these treasures are out there. I have seen both pictures and some treasures themselves. Not to be offensive, but your arguments are those of an armchair skeptic. One not willing to take the time to research for themselves. Just gainsay others and want them to do your work for you. Just hand you what took them years and sometimes a lot of money to find out for themselves. If someone is polite and fair minded, I don't mind sharing a lot of what I can. Someone comes in demanding proof, you're on your own. I don't owe anybody anything. What information I provide is up to me. The people here that know me, know that I don't make things up or get led around by my nose.

Mike

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Gentlemen anymore insults and time outs will be issued.

 

[vor]

TH
Thanks but I am pretty thick skinned.

The crowd will call anybody out when something is blatantly wrong. If NP came out with another pic that could be proven wrong, they would be called on it, as I hope I would be had I ever posted anything fictitious or erroneous. How do you know NP is a he?

Yeah property appreciation. How did a poor unemployed kid from rural New Mexico buy a house in San Diego? I am sure there are records of his wealth at the time of his death. I do know a thing or two about the man. My purpose is not to sway any nonbelievers opinions. I personally don't care whether someone believes any of this one way or another.

Centered my life? Not quite. I do spend an inordinate amount of time studying a few of the treasure stories. My main area of interest is Jesuit History and the wealth they left behind (read my thread on the subject). That study has led to several other stories. I have many interests in my life. Treasure Hunting is just one. I prospect, scuba, and skydive (having jumped out of airplanes for many years in both the US Navy and the US Army).

I have been very lucky in the twenty odd years I have been doing this to have met several people who are quite wealthy with no reason to lie about where their wealth came from. Treasure Hunting in the SW. You are more than welcome to scoff at the subject. It only tells me that you haven't studied it very closely yet. But all that aside, you are entirely welcome to whatever opinion you wish. If you are skeptical, that is great! Do what I did twenty odd years ago. Go out and buy some books on the subject. Meet some of the old timers that have actually found things. Spend enough time seriously researching the subject, and you would see how ludicrous your antagonistic skepticism sounds.

I am not a shapes in the clouds kind of guy. I have spent many years of my life looking into these stories. Hiking the mountains and deserts verifying their veracity. If something is dubious, I say so. If something makes sense, I say that as well. I am far from being a sheep. I just know without a shred of doubt in my mind that these treasures are out there. I have seen both pictures and some treasures themselves. Not to be offensive, but your arguments are those of an armchair skeptic. One not willing to take the time to research for themselves. Just gainsay others and want them to do your work for you. Just hand you what took them years and sometimes a lot of money to find out for themselves. If someone is polite and fair minded, I don't mind sharing a lot of what I can. Someone comes in demanding proof, you're on your own. I don't owe anybody anything. What information I provide is up to me. The people here that know me, know that I don't make things up or get led around by my nose.

Mike

Mike
Accolades to you on your fine adventurous spirit and your cloudless bravado.


Don't judge lest ye be judged.

Your "truth" or opinion carries no greater weight than "armchair skeptics".

HH and may the treasures of Doc someday be yours.

Opening day in my neck of the woods so goodnite to all!

V

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Has nothing to do with thick skin, has everything to do with our rules... . We don't just enforce rules when someone complains, we enforce them when we find them being broken.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning VOR Coffee today Admittedly if there was any solid proof, they would have been found long ago. But it is the Tantalizing bits of information that eventually come together and fleshes out the story that are interesting yet cannot be individually proven.

I had even less for Tayopa, actually only Dobies story and map, which I discounted at first, reasoning that if it had any value Tayopa would have been found long ago, Actually it is nearly 80 + % correct.yet the way that it was oriented caused confusion for other seekers. 60 miles error.

I worked out how they sent the Ag, Au to Rome, but I missed the obvious route, NP's lil map which he gave me, proved to be the correct route and was forced to give up my original route in favor of a water one. .

Just how vague could that little map be ?? yet it is unproven, except that it used information that could 'only' come for the 1600's

I have applied for a grant from the Exolorers Club to follow up on it

 

[sdcfia]

Proof Positive To You = Two independent sources? Okay, how about the five cowboys on the Holden Ranch that Willie Doughit walked up to and dropped a dore bar at their feet after they teased him about finding his cave?

Maybe the ten gold bars that Tony Jolley found (after helping Doc rebury 110) and sold to buy the ranch (he paid cash for) and willed to his son?

Maybe the $3.5 million dollar estate left buy Lawrence Foreman/Willie Doughit when he died? And the million cash his girlfriend stole from his house?

............. and its a lot more than one person's story. Everybody that worked with the Noss' during the late 1930s and early 1940s saw treasure come out of the top of VP. Benny Samaniego and Jose Serafin Sedillo saw the gold and treasures, while Benny was the only one Doc let go all the way in. Benny admitted seeing the treasure and the skeletons staked to the cave floor. Benny paid cash for his house from the proceeds of selling a gold bar Doc gave him for his help at VP. Fiege and Berlette both passed polygraph tests regarding the cave on VP that contained piles of gold bricks. Fiege stated in the 60 Minutes Interview that he knew they were gold because he personally handled the bars. And on, and on, and on.

Take Care - Mike

Some of those examples are acceptable only up to a point. The cowboys (names?), Willie, Jolley, Samaniego, yes, they all likely saw or had gold. However, as the title of this thread implies, it is the source of that gold that is in question. Yes, some folks, including one of Noss's wives, claim to have seen him bring metal bars out of the top of the peak, which obviously could have been staged events to validate Doc's allegations to gullible witnesses.

Benny claims to have been in the treasure chamber, but we already proved he lied as to where that chamber is.

The Fiege event is looking more and more bizarre. Fiege claims the bars of metal were gold. Was he a metallurgist? Did he have them assayed? Swearigen claims Noss stashed those bars himself. Why did he say that? Were they copper bars? The "lie detector results?" Based on the GI's statements of his and others' activities all over VP in the mid-50s following publication of the James book, I'm thinking that with a trusty old typewriter, anybody could have produced that two-page document you posted. No letterhead, no signatures, no certifications, etc.

I've noticed that you haven't addressed the statements from Swearigen and the 1956 GI, even though I've called them to your attention three times. Willie's and Benny's sudden wealth is not the question here. Where that wealth originated is: VP or the Caballos? Or, with the Noss/Holmdahl connection, maybe Mexico?

 

[UncleMatt]

deleted

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning sdc, You posted --->The Fiege event is looking more and more bizarre. Fiege claims the bars of metal were gold. Was he a metallurgist? Did he have them assayed? Swearigen claims Noss stashed those bars himself. Why did he say that? Were they copper bars?

First, i certainly can tell if a bar contains a sufficient amount of Gold to be called a Gold Bar even if it is ony 50% without assaying it. Also remember we are theoretically dealing with Dore' bars, mine run bars that have varying amounts of associated metals- they are the mine production run bars, not refined ones.This is why Doc's statement that thy were iron bars stuck together makes sense.

Anc yes, they came from Mexico, specifically Chihuahua and Sonora. Sonora has a Cu content that gives Gold a beautiful rose color that is used in their coinage

Refill on your coffee my friend ??

 

[sdcfia]

Morning sdc, You posted --->The Fiege event is looking more and more bizarre. Fiege claims the bars of metal were gold. Was he a metallurgist? Did he have them assayed? Swearigen claims Noss stashed those bars himself. Why did he say that? Were they copper bars?

First, i certainly can tell if a bar contains a sufficient amount of Gold to be called a Gold Bar even if it is ony 50% without assaying it. Also remember we are theoretically dealing with Dore' bars, mine run bars that have varying amounts of associated metals- they are the mine production run bars, not refined ones.This is why Doc's statement that thy were iron bars stuck together makes sense.

Anc yes, they came from Mexico, specifically Chihuahua and Sonora. Sonora has a Cu content that gives Gold a beautiful rose color that is used in their coinage

Refill on your coffee my friend ??

Your geologic eye is a moot point. The question is the validity of the entire Fiege event. I know you want to make all this a Jesuit thing, but the logistics just don't work for me as I've outlined earlier.

If the "VP gold" came from Mexico, they would likely have come through Emil Holmdahl if he betrayed Villa and buddied up with Noss, as others have suggested. That scheme certainly remains on the table, as nothing at either VP, or the Caballos either for that matter, have been "proven", other than the likelihood that significant quantities of gold were floating around there in the 1930s.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI , it came in the 1600's, 1700's and tis a Jesuit thing, illegal Gold shipped to Rome. Neither Holmdahl nor Villa had anything to do with it..Ex. why would Villa raid columbus if he had millions in the Caballos? Also Holmdahl wasn't particularily wealthy when he died getting ready fo another trip to Mexico.

Soldier of Fortune -- Adventuring in Latin America and Mexico with Emil Lewis Holmdahl, by Douglas V. Meed at The Ralph Nader Library

 

[sdcfia]

HI , it came in the 1600's, 1700's and tis a Jesuit thing, illegal Gold shipped to Rome. Neither Holmdahl nor Villa had anything to do with it..Ex. why would Villa raid columbus if he had millions in the Caballos? Also Holmdahl wasn't particularily wealthy when he died getting ready fo another trip to Mexico.

Soldier of Fortune -- Adventuring in Latin America and Mexico with Emil Lewis Holmdahl, by Douglas V. Meed at The Ralph Nader Library

Villa raided Columbus as payback for Americans who screwed him on an ammunition deal.

Holmdahl's likely Noss connection is a neon red flag.

With all due respect, you have a lot of fleshing out to do on your Jesuit theory before they can be accepted as a viable option. I'm totally open-minded about it because, as I said, the whole VP/Caballo story is still an open book in my opinion. As far as I can tell, you gleaned onto your Jesuit idea based on np's "Noss map", which in itself has a questionable pedigree.

 

[gollum]

Villa raided Columbus as payback for Americans who screwed him on an ammunition deal.

Holmdahl's likely Noss connection is a neon red flag.

With all due respect, you have a lot of fleshing out to do on your Jesuit theory before they can be accepted as a viable option. I'm totally open-minded about it because, as I said, the whole VP/Caballo story is still an open book in my opinion. As far as I can tell, you gleaned onto your Jesuit idea based on np's "Noss map", which in itself has a questionable pedigree.

At first, I would have agreed with you on the whole Noss/Holmdahl Connection. The more I look at it, the less important it gets. Holmdahl was an adventurer. An adrenaline junkie. The Noss Treasure made many headlines at the time, and more than likely, Holmdahl would have wanted to meet Doc and get his story first hand. Same thing for myself and several people I have gone way out of my way to meet that have found treasure themselves. I always like to get stories first hand, and try to figure the character of the teller and the veracity of the story. Most often they kept a memento or two from their finds.

This is an internet forum and not a court of law. Many of these threads are simply a free exchange of ideas regarding different subjects. If you are a skeptic, or if the subject interests you, then do what I did. Buy some books. Talk to some people that knew the people involved. Talk to Tom Whittle and John Clarence (the two writers of the best books on the subject). FOIA some documents from different agencies. I would recommend wearing out some boot leather, but since all of the San Andres are off limits to everybody but mountain goats, that's probably not a good idea.

If you want proof, then go and get it. I can tell you that it is out there. Some of it is documented. Some of it is not. A lot of it is circumstantial. A lot of it comes from stories told by the people who knew the people involved. You have to make your own judgments based on your own research. You and I might talk to the same person and come away from it feeling completely opposite. That's human nature. If your interest is strictly armchair, then I can understand how you (VOR and SDCFIA) might feel about wanting absolute proof. I am a little different. I used to be that way, until an old friend that died in 2010 said to me "Why do you waste your time? Do your research until you are comfortable believing the story, then go out and look for it!" He was right. You also have to know what matters and what doesn't. Does it matter if the treasure was put there by the Jesuits or Pancho Villa? To me, no. All I care about is, WAS THERE GOLD AT VP? From everything I have learned, the answer is YES.

SDCFIA,

You made one statement that agree with 100%: "the whole VP/Caballo story is still an open book in my opinion." While I believe there are some things (in my opinion) that are set in stone, a great majority is absolutely an open book.

Another thing on the Noss/Holmdahl Connection. If VP was Mexican Revolution Gold, then why wasn't Holmdahl involved in any way with its recovery? Now, I know Holmdahl was looking for Villa's Gold, so maybe he just wanted to get Doc's Story to see if Docs Gold may have been Villa's. On the other hand though, Holmdahl was interviewed by the FBI with regards to his involvement with the "Four Corners Gold". I have an FBI FOIA page of that interview. While it doesn't say Holmdahl's name specifically, it describes the redacted person's name as an American Ex Military man that served as a Captain with Pancho Villa. The "Four Corners" (or 17 Tons of Gold) Story is another one that I spent a lot of time looking into, and talking to people.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

g'd morning SDC: cocffee? I am on my third. You posted ==> Villa raided Columbus as payback for Americans who screwed him on an ammunition deal.

Hmmm ovficial version is __+l.Angered over American support of his rivals for the control of Mexico, the peasant-born revolutionary leader Pancho Villa attacks the border town of Columbus, New Mexico

After the 1915 Battle of Celaya, where Villa sustained his greatest defeat, the Division of the North was in shambles, wandering around northern Mexico foraging for supplies. Lacking the military supplies, money, and munitions he needed in order to successfully pursue his war against Mexican President Venustiano Carranza,[1] Villa planned the raid and camped his army of an estimated 500 horsemen outside of Palomas on the Mexican side of the border. The reasons for the raid have never been established. At their camp, Villa and his men waited for his returning patrols.

Before the attack Villa told his men the reasons he had decided to attack this American town. He said the Carranza government had practically sold Mexico to the Americans. He also mentioned how the U.S. had been given the power to name three Mexican cabinet members. However, all this meant very little to Villa’s illiterate soldiers.

One of Villa’s top officer’s, Pablo Lopez put it in plain terms. “We want revenge against the Americans,” he yelled out. Lopez said the U.S. was to blame for their defeat at Agua Prieta and Celaya. He accused the Americans of allowing the Carrancistas to travel across U.S. land to reinforce their garrison

############


You posted --> Holmdahl's likely Noss connection is a neon red flag.

I am posting exerpts of Homdahl life, He dertainly doesn't appear to have had access to bars in V ictorio Peak as he always was seeking money in whatever form.

############

There was a note of desperation in a letter Holmdahl sent to Frank Polk of the U.S. Department of State on April 30. He wrote:

... my application for executive clemency ... only awaits your recommendation.

I have now exhausted both my savings and my credit, and am two thousand miles from home, without any means whatsoever ... begging your kind and early consideration.

. With no real clues, speculation finally died down, until a friend of Holmdahl, L.M. Shadbolt, revealed that in 1928 he met the soldier of fortune in El Paso. Shadbolt said Holmdahl entered his room in the Sheldon Hotel, unwrapped a bundle of newspapers and out rolled Villa's head. "I'm going to get $5,000 for it," Holmdahl said
Throughout the remainder of the 1930s and into the 1950s Holmdahl did scouting work for petroleum companies, prospected for minerals, and engaged in real-estate promotions in Mexico. With the outbreak of World War II, he applied for active duty with the United States Army, but was turned down in a cursory manner

Throughout the remainder of the 1930s and into the 1950s Holmdahl did scouting work for petroleum companies, prospected for minerals, and engaged in real-estate promotions in Mexico. With the outbreak of World War II, he applied for active duty with the United States Army, but was turned down in a cursory manner
During the last year of his life, when he was in poor health, he was planning a trip back into some remote area of Mexico. My Dad and I tried to talk him out of it, we even tried to hide his car keys, but he found them. On April 8, 1963, while loading his automobile with his prospecting tools, he suffered a sudden massive stroke. He died almost instantly. He was buried in a crypt alongside his wife of almost thirty years. He was nearly 80 years old.

################

If you had reas any of my posts you would have seen that I was proposing a series of missions on the land route to Matamoros. NP'd map, while crude, changed it because of the references ot the 1600;s 1700's. locations, which I doubt that many are qualic=fied to make in the 1930's. which leads me to believe it's validity, but I am still working on the 1800's part.

 

[sdcfia]

villa columbus ravel brothers A bunch of links discussing the Columbus raid.

Holmdahl undoubtedly had many secrets. He certainly had the Mexican connections.

Why would that map have been difficult to put together in the 1930s? Maybe it was put together in the 1990s. How would we know?

 

[gollum]

villa columbus ravel brothers A bunch of links discussing the Columbus raid.

Holmdahl undoubtedly had many secrets. He certainly had the Mexican connections.

Why would that map have been difficult to put together in the 1930s? Maybe it was put together in the 1990s. How would we know?

You are correct. It could have been put together a couple of weeks ago. Without any provenance, there is only face value. Does it make sense? Could it have been put together recently by someone with some knowledge of the subject? Is there anything about the map that sheds any new PROVABLE information that was not publicly known before?

VOR,

I understand some of your skepticism. Since I don't know anything about you (name or city), I hate to assume anything, but I base my assumptions on what you say in your posts. I may be wrong, but it's all I've got. Maybe we just got off on the wrong foot.

.........and you don't have to worry about Roger and I. We get along just fine. HAHAHA We just get under each others skin every few years or so. He goes off his meds and gets a little sporty from time to time, and if I don't get into a fight with someone every now and again, I get very bored. HAHAHA

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

I will let NP explain about the map which was supposedly found by Nos with the other papers. At that time the existence and location of Tayopa was unknown, Still wasn't at 1990, until I finally had it and posted on it. It shows features that Nos' group couldn't know of.

As far as the other mines were concerned, only a handful of people know even today. Since these mines were relatively correctly located in sequence, it means that the map was correct as to the Illegal mines out put of Dore' bars for transport to Rome.using the Rio Grande ( del Norte) to transport them down to the waiting Jesuit ships, the major distance, .

As for Homdahl, in his own words, he was broke, so if he knew of Victorio Peak etc, why didn't he pick up a few bars for pocket change? It was perfectly legal then.

The Columbus raid, I tend to go for what he and his staff stated. - that the Us had allowed the enemy to use the RR in the US to transport the enemies troops and munitions but excluded Villa's. I would be a little put out also if a country had aided my enemy but not me Villa was noted for a short temper.

It's a little illogical to burn down a town because of a failed deal by an individual in there, but then who ever said that the a 'mule pusher', Villa, ever was.? He sacrificed many men due to his incompetence.

 

[markmar]

Don Jose

Nice map . Shows many details . Thanks for sharing it .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geia sou Markmar. Cafe?? here is a corrected map showing similarity to NP's map. The Chinapas group lies on the Chinapas river drainage, The Tayopa 3, The true Tayopa , lies on the Mayo drainage, The Tayops 2 lies on the Yaqui drainage Each progressively further West, forming the hook in the serpent in NP's map