1697 Susan Swan Wampum Bag

[deadrabbit]

I represent someone selling a 1697 Susan swan Wampum Bag it is well documented and currently being held at the natural history museum in albany n.y. was just wondering what everyone thought it is worth

 

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[Red-Coat]

This seems a little odd. How would you expect anyone here to value such an item with no pictures, no information about its condition, and nothing more about provenance/provenience than you saying it’s “well-documented”?

You also say “a 1697 Susan Swan Wampum Bag”. Do you not mean the “the 1697 Susan Swan Wampum Bag”, unless there is another, apart from this one:



If so, although an important early example of a twined bag, it’s doubtful that it’s a wampum bag. Drooker & Hamell’s 2004 evaluation of the item concluded that:

…The identification of the bag as a “wampum bag” in the late-19th-century and turn-of-the 20th-century recorded traditions of the bag’s significance. There is nothing about the bag itself that would identify its use as such. Certainly, loose wampum beads, wampum strings, and wampum belts could have been stored or carried about in basketry bags or other containers. Given this bag’s original form and large size, its dedicated use to store or transport wampum seems very unlikely.

They also refer to its “original form” since it has subsequently been repaired, modified and was converted into a sewing basket during the 19th Century, which also affects its value. Although it does seem to trace back to Susannah Swan’s capture by New England Indians between 1697-1699 (at which time she was Susannah Wood) much of its “documentation” is derived from oral family history.

Nevertheless, I would expect it to have considerable collector interest but that a proper valuation would only come from an appropriate expert and that it would only realise its true value in a specialist auction supported by pre-auction advertising.

 

[deadrabbit]

Nice redcoat,as usual.Now lets see if we hear anything but crickets.

No no crickets thanx for the info but sarcasm is not needed is this a professional site if so I would expect better attitudes. I'm sure your thoughts on the bag are correct. I know the relative of Susan swan.

 

[crashbandicoot]

No no crickets thanx for the info but sarcasm is not needed is this a professional site if so I would expect better attitudes. I'm sure your thoughts on the bag are correct. I know the relative of Susan swan.

Sarcasm?Not so much.You,ve been asked to provide some means of proving who you are and what you represent.So far,crickets on that.No sarcasm,just fact.

 

[Red-Coat]

Are you saying that the bag is still owned by the descendants of Susan Swan and you are a friend of the family?

What are your credentials that led to them having you seek out the value and negotiate the sale of such a rare and historical antiquity that no doubt, if genuine and authenticated, could possibly fetch millions of dollars?

You say it is located at the Natural History Museum in Albany, NY? I can't find that museum, there is a New York State Museum in Albany and a Albany Institute of History and Art.

Where is the Natural History Museum in Albany, do you have a link to it so i can research this artifact further?

I don’t know where the bag is now, but it has been extensively researched (Dongen 1996; and Ulrich 2001), most recently by Penelope B. Drooker and George R. Hamell. Their assessment was published in the New York State Museum Bulletin 500 “Perishable Material Culture in the Northeast”, published in 2004. You can download the pdf at the link below, which includes Drooker & Hammel’s paper as chapter 11, at the bottom of the report:

https://www.academia.edu/33252222/Susannah_Swans_Wampum_Bag

It’s a rare thing, but the value will not be in the “millions of dollars”.

 

[GoDeep]

It’s a rare thing, but the value will not be in the “millions of dollars”.

Agree to disagree. It certainly could be worth 7 figures, especially if this was genuine and given it's history, rarity (likely one, if not the only one, that even exist, let alone are for sale), provenance (Susan was allegedly kidnapped by the Indians and became a medicine woman and later escaped) and age (claimed 1697).

Of course, we'd have to see it first, authenticate it second. If it's ornate and adorned with bead work or intricate detailed patterns it could drive the price through the roof to a wealthy collector.

Now, this isn't an apples to apples comparison, but it gives you an idea of what rare artifacts of this nature can fetch, its a mid 1800's navajo blanket that sold for 1.8 million: https://nazmiyalantiquerugs.com/blo...-antique-navajo-blanket-ever-sold-at-auction/

 

[Red-Coat]

Agree to disagree. I believe it could be worth millions, especially if this was genuine and given it's history and provenance and age (claimed 1697).

Of course, we'd have to see it first. If it's ornate and adorned with bead work or intricate detailed patterns it could drive the price through the roof to a wealthy collector.

Now, this isn't an apples to apples comparison, but it gives you an idea of what rare artifacts of this nature can fetch, its a mid 1800's navajo blanket that sold for 1.5 million: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/kry...ht-to-be-worthless-for-1-point-5-million.html

It's both pictured (B&W only) and fully described in the pdf link I provided and, as I have already said (detailed in the research paper): it has been substantially altered from its original form; the provenance and provenience rest heavily on oral family history which cannot be independently confirmed, although the age (at least approximately) is not in doubt.

This isn't in the same league as the blanket you linked to.

 

[GoDeep]

This isn't in the same league as the blanket you linked to.

'

You are correct, it isn't in the same league (if its actually even for sale), it's likely the only (mostly intact) one whereas there are an estimated 100+ of the blankets.

Edit: actually, having now read the the link you provided, Yes, it's had some repairs and alterations, but it's rare, much rarer (and older) then any of the 1800's blankets being sold. I don't doubt that sold to the right collector it could be worth 7 figures.

Some full color pictures would be nice and i'm waiting on those from the OP.

We can debate it's "value" until the cows come home, the truth is, no one can know until it actually goes up for auction and sells. The blanket that went for 1.8 million was originally only estimated to fetch around 200,000, but you get a few wealthy private collectors bidding against each other and things can go up real quick!

 

[deadrabbit]

Are you saying that the bag is still owned by the descendants of Susan Swan and you are a friend of the family?

What are your credentials that led to them having you seek out the value and negotiate the sale of such a rare and historical antiquity that no doubt, if genuine and authenticated, could possibly fetch millions of dollars?

Yes the bag is still owned by family of Susan swan I have been friends with him for over 25 years

 

[deadrabbit]

I don?t know where the bag is now, but it has been extensively researched (Dongen 1996; and Ulrich 2001), most recently by Penelope B. Drooker and George R. Hamell. Their assessment was published in the New York State Museum Bulletin 500 ?Perishable Material Culture in the Northeast?, published in 2004. You can download the pdf at the link below, which includes Drooker & Hammel?s paper as chapter 11, at the bottom of the report:

https://www.academia.edu/33252222/Susannah_Swans_Wampum_Bag

It?s a rare thing, but the value will not be in the ?millions of dollars?.

Ty for your posting I am not an agent I am a friend doing a favor for a friend who doesn't do computers such hostility on this site this bag is real and we'll researched and publicated was just trying to find the value

 

[deadrabbit]

You say it is located at the Natural History Museum in Albany, NY? I can't find that museum, there is a New York State Museum in Albany and a Albany Institute of History and Art.

Where is the Natural History Museum in Albany, do you have a link to it so i can research this artifact further?

The museum is at 222 madison ave albany n.y.

 

[deadrabbit]

Susannah Swan?

What percentage are you getting for your exhaustive valuation search on TNET?

If you got nothing nice to say move on

 

[deadrabbit]

Thanx for the info nice to find someone who is helpful instead of demeaning

 

[crashbandicoot]

If you got nothing nice to say move on

You just got on this site with a mysterious post about an item that is supposed to be very old and one of a kind as I understand.You refuse to give out any info on your credentials or your authority to even put this item up for valuation.The people who have responded to you so far with the exception of myself,have a wealth of knowledge about old valuable items,especially redcoat.if you,d like to know more give more.Don,t tell our respected members to move on if you,re not going to co-operate with them.

 

[DizzyDigger]

I represent someone selling a 1697 Susan swan Wampum Bag it is well documented and currently being held at the natural history museum in albany n.y. was just wondering what everyone thought it is worth

Deadrabbit: I mean no disrespect, but I believe the reason you are being
asked questions about your credentials is due to your lack of punctuation
and composition skills.

Now, most folks here don't care much about writing skills, but when you
represent yourself as a professional, it is generally expected that you can
properly express yourself in the written word.

More information is needed. If you took this bag to an appraiser, they would
be asking many of the same questions as the members here.

 

[GoDeep]

Yes the bag is still owned by family of Susan swan I have been friends with him for over 25 years

Thank you, and i assume since you are representing the family and have gone public trying to ascertain it's value, you have detailed pictures of it. Can you post those up?

 

[deadrabbit]

'

You are correct, it isn't in the same league (if its actually even for sale), it's likely the only (mostly intact) one whereas there are an estimated 100+ of the blankets.

Edit: actually, having now read the the link you provided, Yes, it's had some repairs and alterations, but it's rare, much rarer (and older) then any of the 1800's blankets being sold. I don't doubt that sold to the right collector it could be worth 7 figures.

Some full color pictures would be nice and i'm waiting on those from the OP.

We can debate it's "value" until the cows come home, the truth is, no one can know until it actually goes up for auction and sells. The blanket that went for 1.8 million was originally only estimated to fetch around 200,000, but you get a few wealthy private collectors bidding against each other and things can go up real quick!

Ty he was hoping to get around 250,000

 

[GoDeep]

Ty he was hoping to get around 250,000

Can you post the pictures. All we have are old black and whites found off the net.

 

[smokeythecat]

Now, to sell something through this website, you have to be a charter member.

 

[deadrabbit]