1697 Susan Swan Wampum Bag
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  1. #1

    Sep 2021
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    1697 Susan Swan Wampum Bag

    I represent someone selling a 1697 Susan swan Wampum Bag it is well documented and currently being held at the natural history museum in albany n.y. was just wondering what everyone thought it is worth

  2. #2
    gb
    Dec 2019
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    This seems a little odd. How would you expect anyone here to value such an item with no pictures, no information about its condition, and nothing more about provenance/provenience than you saying it’s “well-documented”?

    You also say “a 1697 Susan Swan Wampum Bag”. Do you not mean the “the 1697 Susan Swan Wampum Bag”, unless there is another, apart from this one:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If so, although an important early example of a twined bag, it’s doubtful that it’s a wampum bag. Drooker & Hamell’s 2004 evaluation of the item concluded that:

    …The identification of the bag as a “wampum bag” in the late-19th-century and turn-of-the 20th-century recorded traditions of the bag’s significance. There is nothing about the bag itself that would identify its use as such. Certainly, loose wampum beads, wampum strings, and wampum belts could have been stored or carried about in basketry bags or other containers. Given this bag’s original form and large size, its dedicated use to store or transport wampum seems very unlikely.

    They also refer to its “original form” since it has subsequently been repaired, modified and was converted into a sewing basket during the 19th Century, which also affects its value. Although it does seem to trace back to Susannah Swan’s capture by New England Indians between 1697-1699 (at which time she was Susannah Wood) much of its “documentation” is derived from oral family history.

    Nevertheless, I would expect it to have considerable collector interest but that a proper valuation would only come from an appropriate expert and that it would only realise its true value in a specialist auction supported by pre-auction advertising.

  3. #3

    Sep 2021
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashbandicoot View Post
    Nice redcoat,as usual.Now lets see if we hear anything but crickets.
    No no crickets thanx for the info but sarcasm is not needed is this a professional site if so I would expect better attitudes. I'm sure your thoughts on the bag are correct. I know the relative of Susan swan.

  4. #4
    Charter Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadrabbit View Post
    No no crickets thanx for the info but sarcasm is not needed is this a professional site if so I would expect better attitudes. I'm sure your thoughts on the bag are correct. I know the relative of Susan swan.
    Sarcasm?Not so much.You,ve been asked to provide some means of proving who you are and what you represent.So far,crickets on that.No sarcasm,just fact.
    GoDeep and CanSlawKing like this.

  5. #5
    gb
    Dec 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDeep View Post
    Are you saying that the bag is still owned by the descendants of Susan Swan and you are a friend of the family?

    What are your credentials that led to them having you seek out the value and negotiate the sale of such a rare and historical antiquity that no doubt, if genuine and authenticated, could possibly fetch millions of dollars?
    Quote Originally Posted by GoDeep View Post
    You say it is located at the Natural History Museum in Albany, NY? I can't find that museum, there is a New York State Museum in Albany and a Albany Institute of History and Art.

    Where is the Natural History Museum in Albany, do you have a link to it so i can research this artifact further?
    I don’t know where the bag is now, but it has been extensively researched (Dongen 1996; and Ulrich 2001), most recently by Penelope B. Drooker and George R. Hamell. Their assessment was published in the New York State Museum Bulletin 500 “Perishable Material Culture in the Northeast”, published in 2004. You can download the pdf at the link below, which includes Drooker & Hammel’s paper as chapter 11, at the bottom of the report:

    https://www.academia.edu/33252222/Su...ans_Wampum_Bag

    It’s a rare thing, but the value will not be in the “millions of dollars”.

  6. #6
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    TunaTonker

    Nov 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red-Coat View Post

    It’s a rare thing, but the value will not be in the “millions of dollars”.
    Agree to disagree. It certainly could be worth 7 figures, especially if this was genuine and given it's history, rarity (likely one, if not the only one, that even exist, let alone are for sale), provenance (Susan was allegedly kidnapped by the Indians and became a medicine woman and later escaped) and age (claimed 1697).

    Of course, we'd have to see it first, authenticate it second. If it's ornate and adorned with bead work or intricate detailed patterns it could drive the price through the roof to a wealthy collector.

    Now, this isn't an apples to apples comparison, but it gives you an idea of what rare artifacts of this nature can fetch, its a mid 1800's navajo blanket that sold for 1.8 million: https://nazmiyalantiquerugs.com/blog...ld-at-auction/
    Last edited by GoDeep; Sep 02, 2021 at 05:34 PM.
    US Army, Operation Desert Storm, 1987-1993. Resident De-Bunker. I'm blunt because I don't have time to indulge your fantasies. Treasure is found down here on Earth, not on Google Earth.

  7. #7
    gb
    Dec 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDeep View Post
    Agree to disagree. I believe it could be worth millions, especially if this was genuine and given it's history and provenance and age (claimed 1697).

    Of course, we'd have to see it first. If it's ornate and adorned with bead work or intricate detailed patterns it could drive the price through the roof to a wealthy collector.

    Now, this isn't an apples to apples comparison, but it gives you an idea of what rare artifacts of this nature can fetch, its a mid 1800's navajo blanket that sold for 1.5 million: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/kryt...5-million.html
    It's both pictured (B&W only) and fully described in the pdf link I provided and, as I have already said (detailed in the research paper): it has been substantially altered from its original form; the provenance and provenience rest heavily on oral family history which cannot be independently confirmed, although the age (at least approximately) is not in doubt.

    This isn't in the same league as the blanket you linked to.
    Last edited by Red-Coat; Sep 02, 2021 at 05:28 PM.
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  8. #8
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    TunaTonker

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red-Coat View Post

    This isn't in the same league as the blanket you linked to.
    '

    You are correct, it isn't in the same league (if its actually even for sale), it's likely the only (mostly intact) one whereas there are an estimated 100+ of the blankets.

    Edit: actually, having now read the the link you provided, Yes, it's had some repairs and alterations, but it's rare, much rarer (and older) then any of the 1800's blankets being sold. I don't doubt that sold to the right collector it could be worth 7 figures.

    Some full color pictures would be nice and i'm waiting on those from the OP.

    We can debate it's "value" until the cows come home, the truth is, no one can know until it actually goes up for auction and sells. The blanket that went for 1.8 million was originally only estimated to fetch around 200,000, but you get a few wealthy private collectors bidding against each other and things can go up real quick!
    Last edited by GoDeep; Sep 02, 2021 at 06:16 PM.
    US Army, Operation Desert Storm, 1987-1993. Resident De-Bunker. I'm blunt because I don't have time to indulge your fantasies. Treasure is found down here on Earth, not on Google Earth.

  9. #9

    Sep 2021
    11
    2 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by GoDeep View Post
    Are you saying that the bag is still owned by the descendants of Susan Swan and you are a friend of the family?

    What are your credentials that led to them having you seek out the value and negotiate the sale of such a rare and historical antiquity that no doubt, if genuine and authenticated, could possibly fetch millions of dollars?
    Yes the bag is still owned by family of Susan swan I have been friends with him for over 25 years

  10. #10

    Sep 2021
    11
    2 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Red-Coat View Post
    I don?t know where the bag is now, but it has been extensively researched (Dongen 1996; and Ulrich 2001), most recently by Penelope B. Drooker and George R. Hamell. Their assessment was published in the New York State Museum Bulletin 500 ?Perishable Material Culture in the Northeast?, published in 2004. You can download the pdf at the link below, which includes Drooker & Hammel?s paper as chapter 11, at the bottom of the report:

    https://www.academia.edu/33252222/Su...ans_Wampum_Bag

    It?s a rare thing, but the value will not be in the ?millions of dollars?.
    Ty for your posting I am not an agent I am a friend doing a favor for a friend who doesn't do computers such hostility on this site this bag is real and we'll researched and publicated was just trying to find the value

  11. #11

    Sep 2021
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    2 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by GoDeep View Post
    You say it is located at the Natural History Museum in Albany, NY? I can't find that museum, there is a New York State Museum in Albany and a Albany Institute of History and Art.

    Where is the Natural History Museum in Albany, do you have a link to it so i can research this artifact further?
    The museum is at 222 madison ave albany n.y.

  12. #12

    Sep 2021
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    2 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by xaos View Post
    Susannah Swan?

    What percentage are you getting for your exhaustive valuation search on TNET?
    If you got nothing nice to say move on

  13. #13

    Sep 2021
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    2 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Thanx for the info nice to find someone who is helpful instead of demeaning

  14. #14
    Charter Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadrabbit View Post
    If you got nothing nice to say move on
    You just got on this site with a mysterious post about an item that is supposed to be very old and one of a kind as I understand.You refuse to give out any info on your credentials or your authority to even put this item up for valuation.The people who have responded to you so far with the exception of myself,have a wealth of knowledge about old valuable items,especially redcoat.if you,d like to know more give more.Don,t tell our respected members to move on if you,re not going to co-operate with them.
    Texas T, Fat, CanSlawKing and 3 others like this.

  15. #15
    Charter Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadrabbit View Post
    I represent someone selling a 1697 Susan swan Wampum Bag it is well documented and currently being held at the natural history museum in albany n.y. was just wondering what everyone thought it is worth
    Deadrabbit: I mean no disrespect, but I believe the reason you are being
    asked questions about your credentials is due to your lack of punctuation
    and composition skills.

    Now, most folks here don't care much about writing skills, but when you
    represent yourself as a professional, it is generally expected that you can
    properly express yourself in the written word.

    More information is needed. If you took this bag to an appraiser, they would
    be asking many of the same questions as the members here.
    Mike (aka Dizz)

    "If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude better than the animating contest
    of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick
    the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you
    were our countrymen." ~~ Samuel Adams, 1776

    Dizzy's Super-Simple, Universal Rule of Forum Conduct: Don't be an ass.

 

 
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