Civil War Buttons? Need help to ID!

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

This should be an easy one for Civil War buffs, but a mystery to me. These were given to me recently from an aunt who is 92.

I have seven of then, (one shown) and they are from my great-great grandfather's Civil War uniform. Stamped on the back of each button is ...

N.S. Meyer New York

I am assuming they are Union buttons because of the New York, but am not certain. Nor am I sure which side my great-great grandfather was on.

Questions:

1. Are they common or rare?
2. Anyway of determining rank?
3. How many buttons did the average uniform jacket have?
4. Year Made?
5. Value? (All seven in near perfect condition).
6. Any other info about them would be helpful.

Thank you in advance.

SODABOB

I just posted this today ... but there is already some confusion on my part. Case in point : My great grandmother (Kate Balch) was born in 1870 and died in 1972. The attached card with buttons was written in her own hand, although not known when. If buttons did in fact belong to her father, the only war he could have been in was the civil war. And yet, every reference I can find to N. S. Meyer has them coming into existence no earlier than "after" the civil war. If this is correct, then the buttons most likely would not have been his. But why would my great grandmother say they were? Surely she should know. I'm still researching, but as near as I can determine, my great great grandfather was born around 1850 ???

[color=navy]The solution should be a simple one if I can just accurately ID the buttons !!![/color

[72cheyenne]

Here is a link on the N.S. Meyer. They were only in business in New York from around the turn of the century.
http://www.14to42.net/20streete042.html This link says there is some discrepency as to whether Meyers buttons went back to CW times.

I'm not sure of the design on the buttons, but I believe that some like it have been IDed as a fashion, or civilian type button. But I may be wrong on this. Having the N.S. Meyer backmark may mean they are military, but I don't think they are CW era.

Here are some past links from here on Tnet.
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...,254332.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...,210723.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...,135210.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...,265975.0.html

Here is another link to add to the mystery.
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...,137905.0.html

[Montana Jim]

I think you should clear up the family tree first ... and post a clear picture of the button (front & back), not the note itself.

[DCMatt]

I am assuming they are Union buttons because of the New York, but am not certain. Nor am I sure which side my great-great grandfather was on.

I don't know about the buttons, but Theron Emmett Balch was born May 9, 1845 in Cimberland County Illinois. Married 1866 in Illinois to Diantha Catlin. I also find his family (including Katy, age 9) in the 1880 census in Coles County Illinois.

I think it is safe to say, if he fought in the Civil War, he was in the Union army.

DCMatt

[DCMatt]

Grave marker of Theron E. Balch
It reads:
GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN
THERON E. BALCH
MAY 9 1845
AUG 1 1925
CO. E 5 ILL. CAV

[Breezie]

WOW DCMatt, GREAT JOB!!! Breezie

[CRUSADER]

tag

[PBK]

[72cheyenne]

Great work on the family DCMatt.

So is there any conclussion to the buttons? Are they or are they not CW era? I know better pics of the buttons would help.

[PBK]

I believe that the N. S. Meyer backmark is generally agreed to be postwar.

McGuinn & Bazelon cite a date range of 1890-1925.

Tice attributes it to the first third of the 20th century.

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I'm sorry it took me so long to post these photos ... cameras - computers - import etc. etc. are not my cup of tea. But here's what I came up with. I also discovered there are three different buttons. I suspect some are Civil War era and some are not. Which may also clarify my great grandmother's note. (I hope) ???

Shown here are the fronts and backs of all three buttons. I will try to keep them in proper sequence ... but not sure I'm that talented with upload/transfer ???

1. N. S. Meyer ... New York ( I'm convinced this one is after Civil War )
2. Jacob Reed & Sons ... Phila
3. Schuele Peppler & Kostens ... Annapolis MD ... Made in England

Thanks to all for your input ... plus any additional info you come up with.

Bob

[72cheyenne]

The Jacob Reed backmark dates c.1880. I don't know about the other one.
Here's a quick reference link, its not the gospel but will give you a good idea of most backmarks.
http://pw1.netcom.com/~jimyce/bm.html

[vayank54]

All three are post civil war N.S Meyers is 1907 to present but some accounts say they stared in 1868
Jacob Reed & sons was Established in 1824 but 99.9% of the buttons with that backmark are post civil war
Schuele, Peppler & Kostins 1920's-1930's As a rule civil on war period navy buttons with the horizonal anchor the eagle will have a flatter chest

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Thanks to all ... especially

Vayank54
72cheyenne
PBK
DCMATT

I'll consider this topic solved, and that my great grandmother was somehow mistaken in her belief the buttons were from the civil war era. How this may have occured is another mystery and likely one that will never be solved. It does seem strange that there are three different varieties of buttons, which we know could not have come off of the same uniform.

However, I was able to learn that my great great grandfather Balch did in fact serve in the civil war during 1863 and 1865. I wish that at least one of the buttons had been from that time period, but hey, facts are facts, and that's what this site is all about ... right?

Thanks again,

Bob

P.S. Here's a photo of my great grandmother. 1871-1972. This particular picture is circa 1910. I'm still rumaging through boxes of other photos looking for one of great great grandad.

[Bigcypresshunter]

I missed this post back in 2009.
With CW buttons the anchor flute is usually tucked behind the wing and the wings usually not so rounded.
The original uniform buttons could have fallen off and been replaced..

I apologize if I missed it, but the big question that I have was your GGGrandfather Theron Balch from Illionois?
Is that his grave posted?
Great work DC Matt but the buttons are Navy, the grave appears to be Cavalry.

Great stuff thanks for sharing.
I recently found some old family papers and post my GGGrandfathers CW papers from the Ohio Volunteers..


Here are my CW Navy buttons. Notice the anchor flute tucked behind the wing.

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Cy ~

I had almost forgotten about this thread and can't believe it has been almost two years since it was posted. That gravestone is my great-great grand father's. It is in the Shilo Cemetary, which is located in Coles County, Illinois. My g-g-grand father was born in Janesville, Illinois in 1845 and died in 1925. The picture below is of him, but I'm not sure when it was taken. My guess would be sometime in early 1900s.

I have been unable to find any other details about his life, other than what little has been mentioned here. I'm still confused about the buttons, especially, as you state, because they are Naval buttons and Theron Balch was in the Cavalry. My aunt, who was the historian in the family, passed away about a year ago at the age of 91. So unless I start researching from scratch, which I likely won't do, I will probably never know everything there is to know about my g-g-grandfather's life. My father's middle name is Emmett after g-g-granddad.

Thanks.

Bob

[ Theron Emmett Balch - circa 1910 ? ]

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

P.S. ~

I just checked my aunt's family history file and the earliest date she came up with resulting from about twenty years of extensive research was my 9th great-grand-father ...

Klaudius Keinadt ~ Male ~ Born 1634

The above is all the file contains on that particular individual, and does not include a place of birth or death date. Most of the stuff my aunt found was from numerous letter correspondence she did over the years. She also spent a great deal of time at the library and once a year for ten years straight made a trip to Salt Lake City, Utah to do additional research at the Mormon library there, which is said to be one of the most extensive in the world. My brother helped her log everything into a Family Tree Maker File, which I now have on my computer. I sure hope I don't mess up and accidently delete it someday. If that ever happens it will be lost forever. I can't recall if my brother made a disc or has it on his computer. I suppose I should copy it to paper or make a disc one of these days just to be on the safe side.

Bob

Added: Nov 5, 2011

I checked the family history file again and found a Konrad Keinadt who was my 7th Great-Great Grandfather, and who was born in 1682 and died in 1771. He was born and died in Winterlingen, Wuettemberg, Germany. So I have to assume that my 9th G-G-GF, Klaudius (above), was also born and died somewhere in Germany. The first Keinadt "born" in America was George Adam Keinadt, who was born in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania in 1753. His father, Michael, was born in Germany in 1720 and died in Agusta County, Virginia in 1796. So it was Michael who was my first relative on my g-grandmother's side of the family to immigrate to America. Assuming that such things ocurred when someone was young, say in their twenties, that would suggest that Michael immigrated to America around 1740 or 1750. ?

Additionally: The earliest name and date I've found on my father's side is a Ausel Brown who was my 3rd great grandfather and who was born in 1796 and died in 1862 somewhere in Kentucky. The name Brown also appears quite a few times in connection with Paris, Tennessee, which is where my grandfather, Berthol Roy Brown, was born in 1880. Grandad, who I barely remember and died when I was six years old, came to California around 1905, which is where most of us Browns now reside. There is an unconfirmed family rumor that my Brown heritage originated somewhere in England.

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

In conclusion ...

If there are any members here who are related to the names ...

Balch ~ Coles County, Illinois

or

Brown ~ Paris, Tennessee

... then we might be distant cousins!

If so, please let me know.

Thanks ... Cousin Bob

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

This is primarily for my Brown cousins, whoever and wherever you might be.

~ Berthol Roy Brown Meets Frank James ~

I suppose almost everybody's family who once lived in the midwest during the early 1900s has a Frank James story to tell ... here's mine. My grandfather, who was born in Tennessee in 1880 and came to California around 1904 when he was only 25 years old and unmarried at the time, used to tell my father and his brothers and sisters the following story. Around 1901, when my grandfather first left home and began working his way to California, which for reasons unknown apparently took him four years to complete, stopped along the way and got a job as a hired hand on an Oklahoma cattle ranch. The story goes that while working on the Oklahoma ranch my grandfather went quail hunting one day and just happened to cross paths with Frank James who was also quail hunting that day. And being as the two had hunting in common, they apparently met up at least one more time after that to go quail hunting again. My father cannot remember any specific details about the story, other than there was more to it, but that he has forgotten most of it.

My father, who is currently 89 years old, says his father used to tell the story so often and with such clarity, there is no earthy reason to believe it is not true. My grandfather was a simple chicken farmer all his life, and not the type of individual who would just make up such a story for no reason.

Frank James was born in 1843 and died in 1915 at the age of 72. So if my grandfather's hunting story occurred around 1901, that would make Frank James 58 years old at the time. My grandfather was 21 in 1901. So the story is "possible." Plus, if you read the brief history of Frank James by accessing the Wikipedia link below, you will see where he moved around a great deal during the early 1900s and was well known and recognizable by most people at that time. He had already been pardened by then and was no longer on the run. And even though I cannot specifically place Frank James in Oklahoma in 1901, it seems possible. Please note that my dad's recollection of my grandfather's dates are a little fuzzy. So the quail hunting encounter could actually have take place anytime between 1901 and sometime in 1904. The only thing we know for certain is that my grandfather mustered out of the Army in 1899 and left home for California shortly afterwards, and that he didn't show up in California until 1904 at the earliest.

I hope everyone found my grandfather's story to be of interest. And even though it only speaks of a very brief encounter with Frank James, I honestly believe it is true.

Bob

Frank James Wikipedia Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_James

Additionally ... here is another interesting link where it states ...

Link: http://oklahombres.org/eve/forums/a/...4/m/9856050865

Text from link: Frank James lived on a farm near Fletcher, Oklahoma in the early 1900s and reportedly while living there was riding through the Wichitas looking for treasure the James boys reportedly buried in the 1860s/1870s. Cole Younger was also documented as having visited Lawton occasionally in the early 1900s.

~ * ~

Obviously my grandfather's story will likely never be confirmed, and that the dates mentioned will need a great deal more research, but it is all still very facinating to me irregardless.

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

As I said earlier, I will likely never be able to confirm my grandfather's Frank James quail hunting story, but information like the following may help. Now all I have to do is try and figure out exactly when my grandfather left Tennessee, and then I might have something to go on. Of course, I also need to figure out if he was ever in Fletcher, Oklahoma and when and why he might have been there? So I will just take this one step at a time and see what develops. But so far the dates are looking "pretty close."

Bob

Link: http://okietreasurehunter.blogspot.c...ank-james.html


Text: What is known and can be verified is that Frank and his wife Annie came to Oklahoma in 1905 looking to settle in the Fletcher area. The local paper reported on Dec. 16, 1905 that Frank had purchased a farm north of town.