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  1. #1

    Looking for more info on a RR (Rifleman) button and Artillery(Solved) button

    Posting for a friend who wants to part with these buttons but is trying to get more information about them first. I cannot find the RR over 1 button in my literature, (era 1811 according to Alberts) the finder evidently was told by one button expert it might be "unique" but the expert is not a War of 1812 or Civil War era expert.

    The Artillery button is an AY30 (Artillery, 2nd Regiment) in Albert's book and had a RV100 in Albert's so it is a goodie, but there is a note below saying: "For account of the prediction and finding this button see The National Button Bulletin May 1962, p 128." (Solved, Colonial Dude found one in 2010)
    http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...ic,341153.html
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    "The mantra has always been don't clean a (copper) coin or it will lose value.
    For undug coins this is true. For dug coins this is untrue.
    The value will increase with judicious cleaning."

  2. #2
    us
    Oct 2007
    Pascagoula Ms.
    minelab exp.
    2,128
    44 times

    Re: Looking for more info on a RR(Rifleman) button and a War of 1812 button

    The RR Button could be from the Second Queen's Royal Regiment 1707 era it looks older than the 1812 with the shank style.Just a guess as always from me -------Nice buttons!

  3. #3

    Re: Looking for more info on a RR(Rifleman) button and a War of 1812 button

    IP remembered seeing the Artillery button posted before , so that one is solved, just the RR over 1 button is needed for ID/Info.

    http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...ic,341153.html

    Don
    "The mantra has always been don't clean a (copper) coin or it will lose value.
    For undug coins this is true. For dug coins this is untrue.
    The value will increase with judicious cleaning."

  4. #4
    us
    Oct 2007
    Pascagoula Ms.
    minelab exp.
    2,128
    44 times

    Re: Looking for more info on a RR (Rifleman) button and Artillery(Solved) button


  5. #5
    us
    Relic hunter

    Mar 2008
    Kentucky
    Whites
    1,722
    423 times
    Relic Hunting

    Re: Looking for more info on a RR (Rifleman) button and Artillery(Solved) button

    I couldn't find a Regiment of Rifles button with a number, but did find this that say the ordinal was added in 1814 after adding 3 more regiments. would this info pertain to this type button?

    Bill


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #6

    Re: Looking for more info on a RR (Rifleman) button and Artillery(Solved) button

    Bill, nice background info which helps to say it is a War of 1812 button. Bill also I believe when the ordinal was added it was added to the new RR button which was the Bugle type.Interesting the finder emailed me last evening saying he forgot to mention that both buttons were found at the same site, and that the Township it was found in is where William Crumpton resided. He thinks perhaps the RR 1 button might have been a trial piece done by Crumpton, so time to go that way for some research on Crumpton, although I have gone thru the back section of Albert's book where he lists "Official List of Button Orders" and Crumpton did make lots of buttons for the military during the War of 1812, but neither his name, Armitage or any other button maker mentions a script RR button with a 1 beneath it or any other number, it did show authorization in 1814 when the Bugle was added to the buttons, so no help there other than to eliminate that year for manufacture.

    Crumpton Button:
    Resource: Record of American Uniform and Historical Buttons Bicentennial Edition
    Author: Aiphaeus H. Albert)


    Names of Contractors and Kinds of Buttons Furnished from 1800 – 1837

    William Crumpton, Burlington, N. J. Infantry buttons, 1807, 1808, 1809, 1811, 1816; artillery, 1808, 1809, 1811, 1812: us., 1809; light dragoons, 1811; rifle, 1811.


    I gave a quick look thru Tice's "Dating Buttons" book and curiously I could not find William Crumpton in there, it must be I would think, but my first look was negative, will look later today, things to do right now..........

    Don
    "The mantra has always been don't clean a (copper) coin or it will lose value.
    For undug coins this is true. For dug coins this is untrue.
    The value will increase with judicious cleaning."

  7. #7

    Re: Looking for more info on a RR (Rifleman) button and Artillery(Solved) button

    I have had a closer look thru Tice's Dating Buttons book this evening and William Crumpton is listed and some backmark examples shown, and with what I see in his book, I would have to say it was not a production button made by Crumpton. The lack of a backmark and type of shank is somewhat puzzling, but still holding out the possibility it was a trial piece or unauthorized piece , since War of 1812 buttons and many other buttons had to be contracted out by the government, (authorized as to what will be on the button and how many groce authorized to make).
    The finder thinks the land both the Artillery and RR 1 button were found at was possibly the land owned by William Crumpton, not that would seriously mean anything but perhaps.

    I have sent photos to Tice and another button guru who specializes more in Rev War buttons, seems to be a lack of War of 1812 expert collectors out there, found that out while researching my unique Union Greens button from War of 1812.

    So, open for more suggestions for the RR over 1 button.

    Don
    "The mantra has always been don't clean a (copper) coin or it will lose value.
    For undug coins this is true. For dug coins this is untrue.
    The value will increase with judicious cleaning."

  8. #8
    us
    Nov 2009
    New York
    T2/F75 SE
    2,685
    2786 times
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: Looking for more info on a RR (Rifleman) button and Artillery(Solved) button

    Hi Don - this part of the excerpt I sent you earlier I thought might be a clue. Referencing the cap plates but indicating that they added the "1 reg" even before there were other regiments and dating it to 1812-1813. Before the buttons with the regiments numbers and bugles are dated to (1814).

    http://www.archive.org/stream/bullet...3unit_djvu.txt

    The pattern of the second diamond-shaped ])laic
    (fig. 23), also in brass and almost identical in size,
    although a ground find, is more difficult to account
    for. despite the fact that it most certainly falls in the
    same period. The most logical explanation seems
    that the riflemen, who considered themselves a cut
    above the common infantry, became disgruntled with
    the utter plainness of their plates when compared
    with those just issued the infantry, and asked for and
    received, possibly late in 1812, the plate with the
    eagle and the designation "U.S. Rifle Men." The
    fact that the plate bears the designation "1 reg'''" —
    although there were no other rifle regiments from
    1812 to 1814 — can be explained by reference to the
    "national color" of the Rifle Regiment completed in
    1808, which bore the inscription "1st Rifle Regt. —
    U.S." and the standard and national color of the
    light artillery which were inscribed "The First
    Regiment of Light Artillery" when there was never
    more than one light artillery unit in the Army.'"
    In any case, accurate dating of the third and fourth
    patterns definitely places the .second pattern in the
    1812-1813 period by process of elimination.

  9. #9

    Re: Looking for more info on a RR (Rifleman) button and Artillery(Solved) button

    Quote Originally Posted by Bramblefind
    Hi Don - this part of the excerpt I sent you earlier I thought might be a clue. Referencing the cap plates but indicating that they added the "1 reg" even before there were other regiments and dating it to 1812-1813. Before the buttons with the regiments numbers and bugles are dated to (1814).

    http://www.archive.org/stream/bullet...3unit_djvu.txt

    The pattern of the second diamond-shaped ])laic
    (fig. 23), also in brass and almost identical in size,
    although a ground find, is more difficult to account
    for. despite the fact that it most certainly falls in the
    same period. The most logical explanation seems
    that the riflemen, who considered themselves a cut
    above the common infantry, became disgruntled with
    the utter plainness of their plates when compared
    with those just issued the infantry, and asked for and
    received, possibly late in 1812, the plate with the
    eagle and the designation "U.S. Rifle Men." The
    fact that the plate bears the designation "1 reg'''" —
    although there were no other rifle regiments from
    1812 to 1814 — can be explained by reference to the
    "national color" of the Rifle Regiment completed in
    1808, which bore the inscription "1st Rifle Regt. —
    U.S." and the standard and national color of the
    light artillery which were inscribed "The First
    Regiment of Light Artillery" when there was never
    more than one light artillery unit in the Army.'"
    In any case, accurate dating of the third and fourth
    patterns definitely places the .second pattern in the
    1812-1813 period by process of elimination.
    Yes, I copied that in this ole brain, but the word button with a 1 just not there, so although it enforces the probability of the date range but not a confirmation. I have written to two other experts, still no reply. I think the finder conversed with Don T from the beginning and he has no serious War of 1812 expertise, but I believe he is the one who might have suggested it was a unique trial pattern, just don't know. Again, a bit perplexed why this one piece has a shank like it does.

    My USTE button was a flat one piece with no backmark, but had the typical shank for the period which was a tad later (1820). That button is still the only one known, and that one did have an authorization in 1820 to be made (by a UNK maker). I cannot find any authorization for the RR to be made with a Regiment Number beneath it like this one has.
    "The mantra has always been don't clean a (copper) coin or it will lose value.
    For undug coins this is true. For dug coins this is untrue.
    The value will increase with judicious cleaning."

  10. #10
    us
    Nov 2011
    1

    Re: Looking for more info on a RR (Rifleman) button and Artillery(Solved) button

    Quote Originally Posted by Don in SJ
    Quote Originally Posted by Bramblefind
    Hi Don - this part of the excerpt I sent you earlier I thought might be a clue. Referencing the cap plates but indicating that they added the "1 reg" even before there were other regiments and dating it to 1812-1813. Before the buttons with the regiments numbers and bugles are dated to (1814).

    http://www.archive.org/stream/bullet...3unit_djvu.txt

    The pattern of the second diamond-shaped ])laic
    (fig. 23), also in brass and almost identical in size,
    although a ground find, is more difficult to account
    for. despite the fact that it most certainly falls in the
    same period. The most logical explanation seems
    that the riflemen, who considered themselves a cut
    above the common infantry, became disgruntled with
    the utter plainness of their plates when compared
    with those just issued the infantry, and asked for and
    received, possibly late in 1812, the plate with the
    eagle and the designation "U.S. Rifle Men." The
    fact that the plate bears the designation "1 reg'''" —
    although there were no other rifle regiments from
    1812 to 1814 — can be explained by reference to the
    "national color" of the Rifle Regiment completed in
    1808, which bore the inscription "1st Rifle Regt. —
    U.S." and the standard and national color of the
    light artillery which were inscribed "The First
    Regiment of Light Artillery" when there was never
    more than one light artillery unit in the Army.'"
    In any case, accurate dating of the third and fourth
    patterns definitely places the .second pattern in the
    1812-1813 period by process of elimination.
    Yes, I copied that in this ole brain, but the word button with a 1 just not there, so although it enforces the probability of the date range but not a confirmation. I have written to two other experts, still no reply. I think the finder conversed with Don T from the beginning and he has no serious War of 1812 expertise, but I believe he is the one who might have suggested it was a unique trial pattern, just don't know. Again, a bit perplexed why this one piece has a shank like it does.

    My USTE button was a flat one piece with no backmark, but had the typical shank for the period which was a tad later (1820). That button is still the only one known, and that one did have an authorization in 1820 to be made (by a UNK maker). I cannot find any authorization for the RR to be made with a Regiment Number beneath it like this one has.

  11. #11
    umrgolf

    Re: Looking for more info on a RR(Rifleman) button and a War of 1812 button

    Quote Originally Posted by RELICDUDE07
    The RR Button could be from the Second Queen's Royal Regiment 1707 era it looks older than the 1812 with the shank style.Just a guess as always from me -------Nice buttons!
    Think u may be onto something about the drilled shank.. Would be the first Ive seen on a US 19th century military.. Does appear older

 

 

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