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Thread: Help ID Pistol Please.

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  1. #101
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
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    Please check this out and see what you think. I will be back tomorrow and tell you more about it. But I can tell you that out of about 20 comparisions I tried, this was the only one that even came close to being a match. I printed the pictures first and then cut out the relic image and taped it to the picture of the revolver. After that I scanned and saved it. The colors are weird because my printer is running out of ink. The trickiest part was getting the scale right. And the final touch was to outline it in red.

    I realize this is not conclusive. But I also know that corrosion can play tricks on things.

    Who can tell me what type of revolver it is?

    And don't forget to click on the images to enlarge them. Once they're open you can click back and forth from previous to next.

    SBB

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  3. #102

    Dec 2006
    1,212
    90 times
    The shape is right, but if it is part of the frame of a revolver, where is the upper part with the recoil shield behind the cylinder? The frame is one piece and would not separate.

  4. #103
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
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    L.cutler ~

    I agree. There are unexplainable differences in that particular example. The primary emphasis of my "experiment" involves what I'm hoping will be a process of elimination of finding one or more "possible candidates" that match. So what I have done is to print and cut out three different sizes of the relic like the one shown below and then compare them to as many different hand guns as I can find. And by "compare" I literally mean to hold the cutouts against my computer screen to see if they match up with the various handguns I find on the internet. The site I'm working with presently is this one ... Collectors Firearms Depending on the size of image that's displayed will determine which size cutout I use. I like fooling around with this sort of thing and do not expect anyone else to do it. But if your are interested, here is the typical size cutout I use. If you have a printer just print and then cut it out with sissors. It's time consuming but fun ... at least its fun for me. All I can say at this juncture is that my cutouts do not match up with standard Colt-type revolvers.

    I will be back if I find any more "possibles." And, no ... I'm not crazy. I'm just enthuiastic.


    SBB
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 18, 2012 at 01:24 PM.

  5. #104
    us
    Dec 2004
    South Florida
    70's Whites TM Amphibian, HH Pulse, Ace 250
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    Quote Originally Posted by l.cutler View Post
    The shape is right, but if it is part of the frame of a revolver, where is the upper part with the recoil shield behind the cylinder? The frame is one piece and would not separate.
    Agreed the shape is right but I outlined in red where I think the trigger guard would end.

    Attachment 627687

    We may have to wait for the cleaning and preservation to see whats under the crud.

  6. #105
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
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    I realize I may be the only individual still working on this, but I'm sure no one minds, especially considering that it intrigues me and gives me something to research, which I love doing. I agree that a good cleaning is what the relic needs and that it will no doubt tell us a lot more about it.


    In my last reply when I said I compared the relic to about 20 different revolvers, what I really meant is that I compared it to about 20 different revolvers that were "similar" in design. In reality I have looked at no less than 350 various types of revolvers and so far the "LeMat" is the best match. I admit it is not a perfect match because one characteristic of LeMat revolvers is that flair at the back end of the trigger guard, which the relic obviously does not have. However, I have discovered that LeMat made a variety of other revolvers, some of which did not have the flair. Additionally, in the original patent drawing below, dated October 21, 1856, you will notice that the forward portion of the trigger guard is quite long. So when you combine the patent illustration with the fact there were variations made over the years, that was just enough to convince me to pursue my research further in the hope of finding a variation that matches. I haven't found it yet, but I'm looking.

    Hopefully the following pictures, etc. will be self explanatory and better illustrate what I have failed to say in words. I'm sure I will forget something here, but I guess that's what the edit feature is for. And to put all of this in a nutshell, even if the relic turns out to be something other that a LeMat trigger guard, it's the closest match I've seen after at least twelve hours of research. But I'm still not a gun expert and never will be. Even if my research is in vain and the relic turns out to be something other than a LeMat, I have no regrets and have enjoyed every second of the research. If nothing else, at least we know a few things now about one of the most interesting Civil War era revolvers ever made ... The double barrel Lemat. Can you imagine the damage a revolver with a small shotgun-type barrel on it could do at point blank range? I shudder at the thought.

    Be sure to click on the images to enlarge them.

    Sodabottlebob


    Wikipedia Link: LeMat Revolver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which includes ...

    Civil War use: LeMat hoped to market his adaptable revolver as a primary sidearm for dragoons and other mounted troops. He entered into a partnership with P.G.T. Beauregard (at that time a major in the U.S. Army) in April 1859 to market his handgun to the U.S. Army. Beauregard, besides being LeMat's cousin,[1] was one of the first U.S. Army officers to resign and join the Confederacy.

    When war broke out LeMat received Confederate contracts for the production of five thousand revolvers, and plans were laid to manufacture the gun abroad and then import them into the Confederacy, which lacked the necessary facilities to produce the weapon locally. Confederate gun runners were able to slip shipments of the gun through the Union naval blockade and it is estimated that about 2,500 made it into Confederate service.

    The rusted relic (for the 10th time) Lol

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    Original Patent No. 15,925 ~ Oct 21, 1856 ~ Painted red to illustrate long portion of guard. There are hidden features in the grip that cannot be seen. The blue arrow points to the "fancy" part.
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    Exposed Parts ~ Notice how the trigger guard on this variation is attached in two pieces.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Multiple variations from LeMat book. This is the largest image I could create. Particularily notice the revolvers without the fancy guards. I wish I had a copy of this book.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Variation ~ Without fancy guard. Sold at auction for $69,000.00


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    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 19, 2012 at 10:53 AM.

  7. #106
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Here's just what I've been looking for. But the only thing I know about it for sure is that it's a LeMat exploded view of the parts. I do not know which variation it depicts or how hold it is. Notice where I painted in the red arrows that point to a non fancy type of guard and that it has a thick end where it goes inside the grip portion. The other arrow points to the cylinder support (or whatever that part is called). I realize this is still inconclusive, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless. The sum and total of my Lemat theory is based primarily on the curved slant of the grip and how well my earlier experiments with the rusted relic matched up with it. I have yet to find a logical explanation for the unusually long cylinder support, other than it might be two pieces corroded together, or a variation that I have not come across yet. Be sure and take a close look at the ones in the book. Several of those appear to have long cylinder supports.

    Click to enlarge.

    SBB

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    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 19, 2012 at 10:39 AM.

  8. #107
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Homework assignment for dilligent students ... consider some of the most common Civil War revolvers.

    Click to enlarge and read.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The three most distinguishing features are ...

    1. Red ...... The approximately 2" inch long forward portion.

    2. White ... The horseshoe shape guard portion.

    3. Blue ..... The approximately 45' degree angle of the grip portion.

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    List of weapons in the American Civil War / Wikipedia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ican_Civil_War

    Handguns of the Civil War Link: http://civilwarhandgun.com/
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 20, 2012 at 10:56 AM.

  9. #108
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    You may recall my saying that I sent out a few email inquiries. I just heard back from a western historian named Marshall Trimble, who in turn forwarded my inquiry to a gun expert named Frank Cutler. Here's what Frank had to say about the rusted relic that Marshall forwarded him pictures of ...

    "From what I could see of the guard in the photo, I could not really tell how large it is. The trigger guard itself seems a bit too large. But some guns were ordered to have a larger opening so that a gloved finger could fit it. Anyway, the angle of the rest of it says LeMat all the way!"

    Frank
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 24, 2012 at 01:04 AM.

  10. #109
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    PS ~

    In case you're wondering who Marshall Trimble is, the following links will tell you.

    Ask the Marshall Link:
    What can you tell me about the LeMat revolver?

    Wikipedia:
    Marshall Trimble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    General Info:
    Home

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Marshall said he also sent my inquiry to Phil Spangenberger, who I am still waiting to hear from. Here are some articles written by Phil.

    http://www.truewestmagazine.com/jcon...dream/firearms
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 24, 2012 at 01:01 AM.

  11. #110

    Sep 2006
    Southern Maryland
    Minelab Explorer
    119
    1 times
    Quote Originally Posted by SODABOTTLEBOB View Post
    You may recall my saying that I sent out a few email inquiries. I just heard back from a western historian named Marshall Trimble, who in turn forwarded my inquiry to a gun expert named Frank Cutler. Here's what Frank had to say about the rusted relic that Marshall forwarded him pictures of ...

    "From what I could see of the guard in the photo, I could not really tell how large it is. The trigger guard itself seems a bit too large. But some guns were ordered to have a larger opening so that a gloved finger could fit it. Anyway, the angle of the rest of it says LeMat all the way!"

    Frank

    Bob,

    I very much appreciate your diligent work with this piece! If we were not on other ends of the country I would buy you a beer! Should you ever find yourself out in these parts, give me a shout. If I recall, I believe there is a bottle forum you frequent (that I have made a post a time or two on). I have a big old bottle dump nearby I'd be more than happy to take you to. Anyhow, It does seem closest to the LeMat...But I am not 100% convinced just yet. I wish there were more of them so that maybe there would be some more pictures of the different kinds. I believe that one of these experts will eventually know right away what it is. I hope it is a LeMat however, That would be absolutely too cool.

    Thanks again for all your hard work on this Bob.

    PS. I hope to electrocute it here real soon... Perhaps I will have some new hints then.

  12. #111
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    SMRH ~

    Thanks for the invite. I just might take you up on it one of these days after I retire (3 to 5 years) and hit the road in my motorhome.

    And your timing couldn't be better for your reply. I sent some more pictures of the relic and Frank Cutler had this to say after seeing the one of you holding it with your finger on the trigger ...

    "I really believe its a LeMat. The 3 lower bullets are from a rifled musket. Two look like .58 cal and the other .577 cal."

    Frank

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    I'm still waiting to hear from Phil Spangenberger and will let you know when I do.

    Bob
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Apr 25, 2012 at 03:12 PM.

  13. #112
    us
    monty

    Jan 2005
    Sand Springs, OK
    ACE 250, Garrett
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    I agree with Breezie. It looks like a toy , possibly a BB gun or something similar. Monty
    Don't make me loose the hounds! If you dig, Cover up your holes.

  14. #113
    us
    Jul 2006
    Western PA
    Minelab Explorer SE With a plethora of coils
    1,041
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Banner Finds (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigcypresshunter View Post
    In both the firearms pictured, the missing barrel sits on wood like modern rifles. We are looking for something unique where the barrel sits in an iron bedding.
    That groove makes me think of a bolt action .. or slide action (lever)hmmm
    Seek and Ye shall find, (not necessarily what You were looking for)

  15. #114
    us
    Jan 2011
    Dalton,Ga.
    Whites MXT, E Trac, Garrett Pro Pinpointer
    2,964
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Thats what I suggest, Fry it for awhile and then let us have another look at it


    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
    -Samuel Adams-

  16. #115

    Sep 2006
    Southern Maryland
    Minelab Explorer
    119
    1 times
    Back for more punishment!!

    Hey guys, I know it's been a while but it's been the busy season at work so sometimes it's tough to take a few days to start cleaning this thing.
    The process is well on the way and I thought I would post some (very hastily taken before work this morning on my cell phone) pictures that seem to introduce some new clues to help identify this thing. I apologize in advance for the terrible pictures. I will get you guys some better ones later...
    Anyhow, The first clue I noticed right away, is that there is a brass spring up in the body of this thing behind the trigger. It's hard to tell from the pictures (again, sorry) but it's a pretty culpeper dirt green patina so often found on brass dug in that ground. In the next pictures you will notice the cavity forming where the trigger is and also one that seems to go into the handle a little ways behind the trigger. (I figure the hammer probably went there...) I am sure we are getting closer to figuring this one out. Thanks for looking guys, and I look forward to hearing more thoughts! (However, I'm still )

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  17. #116
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    I never did hear from Phil Spangenberger, but you'd think the "spring behind the trigger" is a clue of some kind. Unless, of course, that was a common feature on most revolvers/rifles.

    SBB

  18. #117

    Sep 2006
    Southern Maryland
    Minelab Explorer
    119
    1 times
    I looked at all the parts diagrams you posted and some more online (including a couple LeMats) and none seem to have it... But I really do think that this may be the key to identifying it! Welcome back and thanks for all your help, Bob.

  19. #118
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    I just sent a picture of the trigger spring to Marshall Trimble, who will likely forward it to Frank Cutler, both of who are gun guys and may be able to identify and/or tell us more about it. I will let you know when I hear back from someone.

    Bob

  20. #119
    us
    When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro....

    Jan 2011
    New Orleans
    Garrett Ace 350 and Propointer, Whites Prism
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    Coil spring behind the trigger is not something I am familiar with on any of the old firearms I have ever worked on. Very interesting.
    "That's me, on the beach side combing the sand, metal meter in my hand, sporting a pocket full of change"...... NOFX

    Now in the process of posting my antique photo collection at : http://forgottonimages.tumblr.com/

  21. #120
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,494
    21 times
    Earlier today I received this reply from Marshall Trimble ...

    Hi Bob,

    I'll forward this to Frank and see what he has to say. He has a Le Matt. I'll be in touch.

    Marshall

    Marshall Trimble
    Official Arizona State Historian
    Scottsdale Community College
    9000 East Chaparral Road
    Scottsdale, AZ 85256
    480-423-6314
    marshall.trimble@scottsdalecc.edu
    Web: marshalltrimble.com
    Last edited by SODABOTTLEBOB; Sep 19, 2012 at 01:55 PM.

 

 
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